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So, currently writing an adventure for a supers RPG (ICONS) and I'm stuck on something before I am even able to begin. My players said they would rather me make them characters than to make their own and run the risk of them being useless. Now I am stuck with what makes a balanced team in terms of a supers RPG?

Is the Justice League a balanced team? Is the Avengers a balanced team? X-men? What makes them work so well, besides creative writing. What do you consider to be the archetypes of a supers team? The Marvel: Avengers Alliance online game seems to think it breaks down to it being five, six if you count the General/Generic archetype, (Blaster, Bruiser, Scrapper, Infiltrator, Tactician, and General/Generic); would you consider this about right? Why/why not?

A little more on what I am doing this for: What I am writing is loosely based on the Earth 2 series from DCs New 52 line. Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman are dead after defeating Darkseid's invading forces from Apokolips. The world has been without heroes for at least five years since, eventually they start to reappear with the players being some of the first to make themselves known. I have a game plan and know where I would like to go with this (My own version of Blackest Night) but I don't want to gear the players for this specific goal; I would rather have them able to handle most things.

edited to add link to comic inspiration source

I think the first decision you need to make is *why* they're going to be a team.

Given the scenario they've outlined one would suggest that it's going to be personality and ... hmm... "alignment" that is going to be what gels or unites the heroes rather than powers or abilities as such.

The JLA and the Avengers -- at least in their earlier incarnations -- were assembled by chance/fate ( and of course the quasi mystical power of $s and marketing! ) rather than tactical aptitude and/or power balance.

Later on in their careers they may well have become a bit more tactically sound, which is logical and right , especially given the varied threats and minds involved.

-- aside -- I am a sucker for recruitment/try out stories. Always amused by the Legion of Superheroes tryouts and thoroughly enjoyed both the Giffen era recruitment drive ( if only for the fight between Starman and Guy Gardener and the whole bit with Blue Beetle, Fire and El Diablo ) and the issues at the start of the Meltzer run on the JLA


I think you've lucked out in some ways by being able to design the characters -- like a writer can for a comic and a situation I generally try and have for any RPG ( with player discussion/involvement too of course) -- and avoid any glaring discrepancies -- the comedy character in the dark and gritty campaign or the guy with incredible magic powers in the hard sci -fi game ( all of which can work but requires a good degree of finesse when roleplaying one would suggest) -- as it means you can design them and the adventures together and make sure that each player can contribute in each adventure and yet still have their own "issue" or arc devoted to them.


I'm sorting out my own Superhero campaign at the moment actually, using the old DC heroes/Blood of Heroes system, got some more thoughts and ideas that might be interesting to discuss... can pinch some of your ideas then too !

 reds8n wrote:
I think the first decision you need to make is *why* they're going to be a team.

Given the scenario they've outlined one would suggest that it's going to be personality and ... hmm... "alignment" that is going to be what gels or unites the heroes rather than powers or abilities as such.

The JLA and the Avengers -- at least in their earlier incarnations -- were assembled by chance/fate ( and of course the quasi mystical power of $s and marketing! ) rather than tactical aptitude and/or power balance.

Later on in their careers they may well have become a bit more tactically sound, which is logical and right , especially given the varied threats and minds involved.

-- aside -- I am a sucker for recruitment/try out stories. Always amused by the Legion of Superheroes tryouts and thoroughly enjoyed both the Giffen era recruitment drive ( if only for the fight between Starman and Guy Gardener and the whole bit with Blue Beetle, Fire and El Diablo ) and the issues at the start of the Meltzer run on the JLA


I think you've lucked out in some ways by being able to design the characters -- like a writer can for a comic and a situation I generally try and have for any RPG ( with player discussion/involvement too of course) -- and avoid any glaring discrepancies -- the comedy character in the dark and gritty campaign or the guy with incredible magic powers in the hard sci -fi game ( all of which can work but requires a good degree of finesse when roleplaying one would suggest) -- as it means you can design them and the adventures together and make sure that each player can contribute in each adventure and yet still have their own "issue" or arc devoted to them.


I'm sorting out my own Superhero campaign at the moment actually, using the old DC heroes/Blood of Heroes system, got some more thoughts and ideas that might be interesting to discuss... can pinch some of your ideas then too !

Hm, thanks for the thoughts. There really is no "alignment" in ICONS, so that is a relief IMHO.

Yeah, I always like writing the how we met stories as well. In this instance I have found that a generalized threat is always a good way to bring a group together, like in the first Avengers comics. So with it being DC I figured I would have Intergang breaking in to STAR labs and getting their hands on some experimental tech. All of the players are alerted to this and respond, since it has been a long time since the world has had heroes the players should be eager to prove themselves. They all arrive about the same time and find they are not alone in their efforts but face a hard fight, because they are rookies. Plot devices are in place to create other chances for villainous elements. Players defeat Intergang and a team is born.

Talked to three friends about this idea of supers teams.

Friend #1: The basics of a supers team can be broken down to Tank, DPS, and Controller (to use MMO terms). Although you would have more control over the stories of the characters then in an MMO.
Friend #2: MMO terms don't really apply to this. "Thats a toughie. Some super teams have no balance but great chemistry. Some horrid teams have great balance but no chemistry. Also their is no one view on what the roles are. So it would be hard to cast it.
Does superman have more in common with thor (god like beings) or Captain america (morel center.)"
Friend #3: Synergy helps to make for a good team.

I think they are all correct, of course. Fantastic Four, I think, are a good example of a team with specific roles who do not always work within those roles but always work well with/off each other.

I think what your problem is, is you are asking yourself the wrong question. You are asking "What makes Super Heroes work together?", when you should ask "What makes people work together?"

The Avengers and JLA both (In my humble opinion) really only work together because they have to; threats are too big for them to take on individually (Even Superman can't be everywhere at once), so they band together for convenience. X-men have always been more of "If we don't look after each other, no one else will" to me, which is why they are willing to put up with people like Scott being a bossy self righteous prick.

Could be an opportunity to do a really 'themed' team. If it's four players, do the classic four elements, or card faces, etc.

Its not a question of what makes a balanced team, its a question of balanced adventure creation right?

No matter what a desinger does, players always come up with some crazy idea that was not forseen. So then the question is "How do i make a blanket adventure to appeal to the masses?"
The answer -- Dont.
Make your story the kind of thing you would want to play in. Throw in cool locations, nasty villians and a chump lackey or two for the PC's to beat on and WHAMMO!! youve got a great adventure!!
Give it a run!

You could give them all themed powers - that way there isn't one person who is useless in a given situation. As much as the system was garbage, a good example of this was the Masters of Speed from Villains Unlimited - they were all Villains with various super speed related powers - One who could run super fast but not stop or turn well, but he was also highly resistant to damage - one who could slow time in a small area - one who could vibrate at super high speeds and basically turn into a tornado - one who could run fast and turn insubstantial while at speed, etc.

Then it motivates you to make their personalities more nuanced since you can't just base them on what their powers are.

 ProtoClone wrote:


Hm, thanks for the thoughts. There really is no "alignment" in ICONS, so that is a relief IMHO.

Yeah, I always like writing the how we met stories as well. In this instance I have found that a generalized threat is always a good way to bring a group together, like in the first Avengers comics. So with it being DC I figured I would have Intergang breaking in to STAR labs and getting their hands on some experimental tech. All of the players are alerted to this and respond, since it has been a long time since the world has had heroes the players should be eager to prove themselves. They all arrive about the same time and find they are not alone in their efforts but face a hard fight, because they are rookies. Plot devices are in place to create other chances for villainous elements. Players defeat Intergang and a team is born.
.

All sounds plausible enough.

If it was me in your shoes I'd take full advantage of your freedom to design the characters and link them through this.

Maybe have one character work there ? Perhaps even gets his/her powers during the raid when they're exposed to the McGuffin virus/substance as the robbery happens. If you're going with the Earth 2 angle this could anything from synthesised proto Krptonian DNA to a power ring to Element X or New Gods technology.


Another one could maybe have a friend or family member there or involved ( maybe make it a bit awkward and have the family member be one of the villains breaking into the lab, the hero pops up to stop/save him/her from their foolishness ! ) .

Maybe another character could be a gadgeteer who uses parts or advice or somesuch from people at Star Labs ?

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Its not a question of what makes a balanced team, its a question of balanced adventure creation right?

No matter what a desinger does, players always come up with some crazy idea that was not forseen. So then the question is "How do i make a blanket adventure to appeal to the masses?"
The answer -- Dont.
Make your story the kind of thing you would want to play in. Throw in cool locations, nasty villians and a chump lackey or two for the PC's to beat on and WHAMMO!! youve got a great adventure!!
Give it a run!

Yeah I had thought of this...what this lead me to was "What came first, the team or the game". You want a team who can handle the game but you can't be sure they can without knowing the game, but you can't make the game suitable for the players without knowing the team.

So I tossed this out and broke it down to what every team needs in order to handle any situation. A team, to be considered a team from the start, has to have at least three people in it any less would just be a team-up (e.g.; Worlds Finest). Within those teams you need some of the following traits/abilities: Someone who can handle melee, someone to be muscles, someone with skills, a shooter/ranged attacker, someone powered by/proficient with arcane, someone who can fly, and someone who can travel fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:


Hm, thanks for the thoughts. There really is no "alignment" in ICONS, so that is a relief IMHO.

Yeah, I always like writing the how we met stories as well. In this instance I have found that a generalized threat is always a good way to bring a group together, like in the first Avengers comics. So with it being DC I figured I would have Intergang breaking in to STAR labs and getting their hands on some experimental tech. All of the players are alerted to this and respond, since it has been a long time since the world has had heroes the players should be eager to prove themselves. They all arrive about the same time and find they are not alone in their efforts but face a hard fight, because they are rookies. Plot devices are in place to create other chances for villainous elements. Players defeat Intergang and a team is born.
.

All sounds plausible enough.

If it was me in your shoes I'd take full advantage of your freedom to design the characters and link them through this.

Maybe have one character work there ? Perhaps even gets his/her powers during the raid when they're exposed to the McGuffin virus/substance as the robbery happens. If you're going with the Earth 2 angle this could anything from synthesised proto Krptonian DNA to a power ring to Element X or New Gods technology.


Another one could maybe have a friend or family member there or involved ( maybe make it a bit awkward and have the family member be one of the villains breaking into the lab, the hero pops up to stop/save him/her from their foolishness ! ) .

Maybe another character could be a gadgeteer who uses parts or advice or somesuch from people at Star Labs ?

I think we are on the same page. I had designs to have one of the robbers grab some piece of long range weaponry and try to use it. For whatever reason, be it that they couldn't handle the kick-back or one of the heroes deflects the shot, it fires wildly in to the sky...which, at that moment a LexCorp space shuttle carrying a one Cpt. Hank Henshaw, as well as his wife and two others, is hit damaging their ship and exposing the crew to high levels of cosmic radiation.

I like the idea of bringing friends/family in to this, gives it a nice touch of "close to home". Even the accident induced hero would work well for an idea.

Thanks for the idea of making one of the players work at STAR labs, this gives me a reason for how they get their suit that can absorb physical and energy and redirect it.

 Slarg232 wrote:
I think what your problem is, is you are asking yourself the wrong question. You are asking "What makes Super Heroes work together?", when you should ask "What makes people work together?"

The Avengers and JLA both (In my humble opinion) really only work together because they have to; threats are too big for them to take on individually (Even Superman can't be everywhere at once), so they band together for convenience. X-men have always been more of "If we don't look after each other, no one else will" to me, which is why they are willing to put up with people like Scott being a bossy self righteous prick.

True enough. I guess one of the things I thought might be some motivation for them to be heroes is the fact that they are in a world without the big three. I ran the idea by a friend and, even though he hasn't been gaming for a few years, sounded really interested in the idea that a player could be the next big thing. But that really only covers one persons ego, they need motivation to work together. This too gives me something to think about, thanks.

So, here is what I have for a team so far...mind you, this is all the prototype stage and subject to change and still in the process of adding more.

Speedster: In the Earth 2 series Mercury comes to Earth after escaping a prison in some sort of hellish place. He lands near a normal person and warns them of a coming evil far greater then Apokolips and that the world needs heroes to save it; then he bestows a portion of his powers to the human before he dies. For me this story element just screams to be used and you get a speedster out of it as well. In the comics he essentially becomes the Flash, but I will leave that up to my player if he wants to be that specific hero or make it his own kind of speedster.

Super powered suit: An employee of STAR labs was studying some metal found after the Apokolips invasion and discovered the properties of the material had an amazing abosrbtion rate when various types of energy were applied to it. After five years of exhausting reforging of the material he was finally able to form a plated suit that allows him to absorb the energy and then reapply it to temporarily boost a physical ability. He was on the verge of testing the suit in a more simulated real life experience when his lab was attacked, can't get any realier then this.

Flying duplicator: Has the ability to duplicate themself and fly...still testing this one to see if I like the idea.

Need something/someone arcane. Can't go wrong with having a resident expert of most things arcane.

All sounds cool.

Suit could well use New God technology there, IIRC Darkseid had a device that did something like that in ..... "Another Nail" or somesuch ?


I think the duplicator character is asking for trouble from a mechanics and playing POV but YMMV.

 reds8n wrote:
All sounds cool.

Suit could well use New God technology there, IIRC Darkseid had a device that did something like that in ..... "Another Nail" or somesuch ?


I think the duplicator character is asking for trouble from a mechanics and playing POV but YMMV.

That was kind of my idea, or something to further expand on in later sessions. So, for now, the metal will be called "MYSTERIUM"!

That actually is the great thing about the Duplication power in ICONS. You can never have more duplicates than your current power level and those duplicates do not posses the power to duplicate...HA! I could call her "Dupli-Kate"! Sorry, can't help it when I see the chance.

 Balance wrote:
Could be an opportunity to do a really 'themed' team. If it's four players, do the classic four elements, or card faces, etc.

Problem with the card faces is that DC already does it themselves in the Royal Flush Gang.

Although a campaign based on not yet heroes finding the RFG's hideout and tech(perhaps the originals got killed in the invasion?) and making a go at a good guy RFG may be interesting.

So a little update and some story progress.

Update to characters added so far to the choices for my players.

An arcanist in the way of H.P. Lovecraft/Constantine. I kept having problems with the idea of an arcanist idea that didn't seem too cheesy. Then I remembered characters like Constantine/Prof. Armitage and how much I actually liked them for their simplicity. So the arcanist will have inherited a private library of ancient tomes from a dead relative. Already somewhat proficient in the arcane arts these tomes seem older, more different, then he knows (that's where the Lovecraftian angle comes in) and so he studies them for several years. Then one night, in a dream, a voice speaks to him and directs him to Starlabs and shows him the battle that will happen, and then leaves him with the simple message of "Protect the avatar"; then when he wakes up he sees on the news a report of a battle happening between what appear to be Intergang and various costumed heroes(?).

My detective character...Actually had this guy created for an online rpg message board but never got around to actually participating. So instead I will bring him to this...He was once a very celebrated luchador in his hometown, he was a champion and a role model until a local drug cartel told him to throw a fight for a large amount of money; he refused the order and the cartel framed him for murder. It took him several years to clear his name but in that time he had lost so much and new he could never return to the ring and be the champion people had once thought he was. So, he decided he could still be a hero, a champion, to a bigger audience and began his career as a detective/costumed hero. He caught word on the street of Intergang's plans to raid Starlabs and new it had to be stopped.

I don't know how many of you read Planetary but it is once of my favorite series. There was one volume of the TB where Planetary was actually a shadow player in the DCU. I liked this idea so much I am going to use it in mine...Planetary actually wanted this world and knew they would never get it with Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman in the picture. So they found a way to leave a trail of bread crumbs for Darkseid to follow and discover Earth in hopes the two would cancel each other out. So planetary fed Darkseid info on the big three, everything he needed to know about them and how to hurt them (Read "World's Finest: The Lost Daughters of Earth 2; Vol 1"). The end result couldn't have gone any better, the big three are out of the picture, the invasion had been thwarted, and even the proteges have been removed the picture...Now, five years later, the world is theirs. This gives the players a great conspiracy to uncover and to fight against.

Edit: Adding more to story ideas.

I had mentioned bringing Hank Henshaw in to this and plan on keeping this. I would play out his story pretty much how it was played in the comics with him eventually evading the players through the electrical grid in his energy form.

Reading some other DC comics I ran across the idea of ARGUS. Thinking of taking the concept and turning it in to a meta human form of animal control. ARGUS is now a multinational task force bent on regulating super heroes or imprisoning them. They are not in love with the idea of having supers running around without any sort of regulation or anyone to answer to. The first few encounters with ARGUS will not go well for the task force and they will end up deciding they have to have homegrown supers to help, so they will have Amazo created (thinking of changing the name) and based a lot of his abilities on those recorded of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. After some testing ARGUS takes Amazo out to test in a real life situation against the players. Unknown to both players and ARGUS, Amazo's programming has been invaded by Hank Henshaw (Cyborg Superman) and starts to operating in very odd ways until he manages to work a voice out and lets everyone know who is controlling Amazo now. This would give Hank his cybernetic body, and Superman like powers, without needing to explain why Superman's ship is still floating in space...because, really, why was it still floating in space?