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So ive been looking at the new marines as allies for my guard still and ive come up with some Black templars.


Allied detachment: Black Templars(I dont have the new marine codex so I dont have exact points down or know entirely everything stat wise for them) 540pts in total for the BT

HQ
Chapter master
Artificer armor
some chainsword of teeth.

troops

5man crusader squad
grav gun
lascannon
Razorback-las/plas

5 man crusader squad
grav gun
lascannon
razorback-las/plas

Thunderfire cannon

Fortification: Aegis/quad gun

IG Primary Force

CCS
x4 plasma
chimera

Troops

Vets
x3 plasma
Chimera

Vets
x3 plasma
chimera

Vets (vendetta)
x3 flamers
demolitions

Fast attack
Vendetta
Vendetta

Heavy Support

LRBT
LR eradicator-bolter sponsons

40pts left

So here is the idea.....Guard dies. Everything that is guard will be pushing up to capture and contest objectives and to hopefully keep the opponent at bay. The defense line will be set up in a way that the 5 man crusader squads will be against the wall with their razorback behind them. 1 will be on the left the other on the right the Chapter master will probably be attached to a squad and fire the quad or detach and fire the quad at something separate like flyers if needed.

The idea with the master is that he has an orbital bombardment to add to sitting back to fire one turn but usually there is something that gets into my lines that is a big threat and he will be used to attack it in melee. I thought about helbrecht instead so I can have a nice charge for those marine squads but the odds of all the marines being alive in their squad and most of the time marines arent amazing in assault. With the grav guns I can atleast put my opponents unit at initiative 1 allowing my chapter master to swing first. I did think about the emperors champion for this as he does have an insta death stance.

So whats the general consensus and whats everyones views?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anybody, any suggestions?

I suggested almost the exact same detachment to one of the local IG players.

/suspicious

Well, I'm bias towards it, but I like it. Mechplars live again, without having to move towards the enemy when they get shot!

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I suggested almost the exact same detachment to one of the local IG players.

/suspicious

Well, I'm bias towards it, but I like it. Mechplars live again, without having to move towards the enemy when they get shot!

Well thats ironic because I live in Ohio and I was suggested this list by someone else lol.

 tankboy145 wrote:

Well thats ironic because I live in Ohio and I was suggested this list by someone else lol.

Yeah, pretty sure we know each other.

Gamers Haven?

Indeed.

There we go! Yup figured I would try getting a 2k list going with that detachment and see where I can get. Unfortunately I believe its pretty solid lol.

I did get thinking about our discussion though - if you're looking for more long-range firepower, an infantry platoon has far more to offer. 6 lascannons for 300pts in an infantry platoon +1 Heavy Weapons Squad, better than what the marines can offer. Add in two Special Weapon squads for six plasma guns and that brings it to 460pts for more weapons than the marines can bring.

Reconsidering the options offered by the marines I think you should look at Legion of the Damned for some ignores-cover special weapons and 3++ goodness.

But another thing to consider is all those weapons are at bs3 which will miss half the time and if I plan on using orders I would have to keep the CCS with their chimera back just to make the platoon useful for its points. The special weapon squads will miss or even kill themselves most of the time and the smallest amount of fire will make the SWS and HWS run off the board.

Yes there will be more bodies on my side but they are also more fragile than the marines are. The marines also have some more survivability in assault with the gravguns and the Chapter master.

Ive also seen some good reviews of the legion of the damned but I havent looked at them in the new codex, I know in the last codex they werent very great for what they did compared to their cost.

6 Guard lascannons hit just as often as 4 SM ones, assuming rapid fire on all the special weapons marines will actually hit more (if you use the grav guns over plasma). So, yeah, you're right there.

Legion got a 20 point reduction at the minimum squad size and the price of their special/heavy weapons went down a bit. They're a bargain bunch now, though I don't have straight point costs available to me. The only downside is the mandatory deep strike (no pod), but you can re-roll the scatter. Couple that with SNP, Fearless, and all the goodness.

Yea a couple guard squads chilling back isn't bad. Only effective orders are frfsrf which basically just adds a shot to lasguns and bring it down just twin links shots when firing at vehicles or monstrous creatures. Once I throw a command squad to chill back I start sacrificing a mobile forward force for a stationary gun line.

I mean I could switch to gun line guard and then use the marines as the forward force to do the attacking but at that point I probably be better off with another chapter rather than black Templars.

6 TL IG Lascannons will hit more often than 4 SM ones, but then you sacrifice the mobility of a mech list. Granted lascannon marines aren't amazingly mobile, but the razorbacks do add that degree. At that point maybe drop the grav guns or bump the squad to ten and combat squad them (I think Crusader squads can combat). Take the five with the special in the Razor to follow the guard and leave the lascannon boys back to pop shots.

Damn, Im really gunna have to grab the codex sometime so I can actually start looking over some of the different space marine stuff. The legion of the damned do seem pretty fun and cool to try out. On the other hand if I upgrade the squads to 10 guys I would have to take the points away from some of the IG stuff in order to do so. Also what would be a good idea for the Chapter master at that point, just attach him to a 5 man squad and go forward or still keep him back with the longer ranged guys?

Either that or take a Master of the Forge as your HQ and utilize the Conversion Beamer. Though if the squad will be ten strong rather than five, the reason for taking BTs is gone. Might as well go Iron Hands or some such at that point. Or Imperial Fists for tank hunting lascannons.

Yea that was my thought, I figured if I changed up anything with the general list above the black Templars would be pointless at that point.

What exactly is the conversion Beamer, I've never heard about it?

I'm gunna have to draw up some more strategies and see what I can come up with. I think with iron hands I would probably be best off with a pod list having tacticals and iron class dropping from pods.

Conversion beamer has three different firing profiles variable on the range of the shot - the longer the distance, the stronger the shot. Can't recall if I can post direct rules on these forums, but its stats are in the BRB. Goes from a dinky small blast to a funtastic large blast.

For pods I'd recommend Salamanders for TL / MC flamers and meltas.

I may even think about the ultramarines, as tigarius is a beast and if I ran a guard foot based list I could probably get a nasty combo in a blob going for him.

Yeah, he can certainly psyker up some goodness for IG. I'd rather have Azrael for that (4++ on 50 Guardsmen is hilarious), but Tigurius does some fun things.

I could even try to get invisibility on a guard blob so that my guardsmen have a higher weapon skill than my opponent and I could give them prescience for rerolls to hit. And there's probably some other powers that could buff a blob or separate unit up.

True. Of course if you're using Tigurius to buff a blob of guardsmen for close combat, there are simply better options for CC out there. Honor Guard in the SM codex come to mind, as well as terminators.

I could go with Calgar of the Ultramarines in a LRC with honor guard with power swords and axes and then use a basic scout squad with snipers as troops.

Or just go with a deep strike type of army with salamanders and have 2 tactical squads and an ironclad drop in and use vulkan so I can get the twinlinked melta as well.

I'd consider swapping the Ironclad for a squad of Legion. They can take a Heavy Flamer, and SNP lets them shoot it out of their DS. Although you do lose a pod that way.

That would be rather interesting. I would only have 1 squad come in turn 1 with a pod which means they are pretty much dead. But turn 2 I would have the legion and some other unit in a pod or deepstrike down.

Maybe give Vulkan a Command Squad with some plasmas or meltas to pod in. So that's Vulkan Pod, Tac Pod, Tac Pod, and Legion.

I actually do like that, it's pretty solid and allows me to basically being in 2 squads each turn if reserve rolls fair with me turn 2.

For the tac squads should I max them out to be 10 man squads so I can get a heavy weapon or should I keep them at 5 man squads with a special weapon and having the sarge carry a combo weapon that compliments the special weapon.

With so many points in the marines portion of the list I may even have them as the primary and have guard as the detachment.

It depends how many points you want to put into the marines. Ten man adds ablative wounds and a multi-melta, that snap fires on the turn it came down and every time you move (granted with TL, giving you a 33% chance to hit). Keeping them cheap will retain a pair of weapons (one being a combi), but they are less durable.

Also recall that Vulkan has a flamer in his glove. Or a heavy flamer, I forget which, but he does shoot fire from his hands.

Sounds like starwars force lightning but with fire lol

I could even combat squad the 10 man teams and have the MM sit still while the flamers/meltas(depends on what I add to the squads) will move around.

I think I might just be set with salamanders. YEAAAA I get to add more green to my already green guardsmen force lol

The command squad that will be attached to vulkan, thats just 5 guys? all I need for them will just be like plasma and melta, or even melta and flamers if I want to assault.

Five guys, yeah. I think one auto-upgrades to an apothecary, so they'll have FNP. Not sure in the new book. The other four can take plasmas or meltas for 15pts/10pts each.

I'd recommend combi-flamers over combi-meltas, since I prefer re-rolling wounds to re-rolling to hit if you're combat squading - then it'll be flamer/combi-flamer with one group, multi-melta in the other, melta/multi-melta on Legion.

Edit - you could also paint 'em as a successor to Salamanders. Black Dragons and Storm Giants come to mind.

I will have to look into the successors and see what schemes might catch my eye, or even just make a new one.

I will most likely pick up the codex sometime over the next week or so and work in points and repost an army using salamanders instead.

I will most likely find this in the codex when I get it but do the black legion benefit from the chapter tactics? I mean the legion are kinda their own guys and aren't attached to a chapter but I will have to look that up.