Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been looking at the Armoured Battlegroup list a lot lately, and I wanted to get some feedback from the forum regulars. Because the army itself has such issues with scoring, I think it's probably best reserved as an allied contingent.

Here's what I feel are the highlights. Feel free to chime in if you feel I've missed anything!

Company Command Tank (HQ)
This thing is a piece of beauty. It costs 10 points more than a standard Russ, but comes with BS4 and can issue an order per turn to vehicles within 6". You'll only succeed half the time, but being able to force the enemy to reroll cover saves is nice. The standard hull, sponson, and pintle mounts are all available at their usual point costs. What really sells this unit, though, are the Forgeworld-specific upgrades.

If you take a Vanquisher, the co-axial weapon lets you reroll the main gun if your heavy stubber gets a hit, and the beast hunter shells let you switch between armourbane and instant death blasts on the fly. I feel this gives a level of versatility that the standard Vanquisher sorely lacks. The accuracy upgrades don't hurt, either.

Commissar Tank (Elite)
While it doesn't get the orders of the Company Command Tank, it does give Ld10 to all Imperial Guard units within 6". I'm not certain, but I think this applies to units from Codex: Imperial Guard, too. If so, this is a nice way to add some backbone to otherwise flighty artillery units, while also improving the reliability of Codex: Imperial Guard orders.

If nothing else, It's an opportunity to take another BS4 Russ if your HQ slots are full. Most useful in an allied list, I think.

Siege Tank Squadron (Troops)
It's a Russ in a troops slot. The rest of the troops in this army are rather lackluster, requiring modest AV transports that take away from your AV14 saturation. These units avoid that problem, while introducing a lot of heavy firepower. I like to take my blast template Russes here, since these lack the BS4 of their HQ and Elite counterparts.

In particular, I'm fond of the Thunderer. It's basically an AV14-13-11 Vindicator without the storm bolter. While it lacks the Demolisher's turret mount, it avoids the mobility-restricting Heavy USR. That's actually a pretty big deal on a 24" weapon. Do mind the Weapon Destroyed results, though -- with only a single weapon, these can be crippling. It might be worth taking a pintle-mounted weapon to reduce the risk.

Imperial Navy Gunship Support (Fast Attack)
You can take a squadron of Vendettas or Vultures (but not both). There's not much to say here. These vehicles are a fantastic mix of mobility, firepower, and durability. They require specialized weapons or an unreasonable amount of firepower to take down, and they're half the reason to take an Imperial Guard list these days.

The Vulture is probably a better choice for the ABG. They don't need transports as desperately as Codex: Imperial Guard list, and anti-tank firepower is available from a number of other sources.

I play ABG sometimes as well. Nice to see other treadheads out there.

I do think that the Vanquisher is probably our best HQ tank. I do wish we could take a Commissar Punisher tank, but I guess an Eradicator will do... (I like to put my "specialty tanks" here).

For troops I love the siege tanks (Demolisher, Punisher, Executioner) thanks to how hard they hit and the higher back armor. I don't think the Armored Fist Squads should be forgotten. They can deploy in reserves and move towards the objectives as the game progresses. Trying to focus your opponents fire on the Russ' is key as you don't want them to kill your scoring troops.

Our Fast and Heavy are pretty key as 1/3 of the missions make them scoring as well.

For Fast attack I enjoy the Vendettas, Sentinels and Hellhounds. I think the Vendetta is key as it can be hard to get the Anti-Armor and Anti-Air that you need when most of your vehicles are throwing out blast templates. The Sentinels can pick off the few remaining infantry from a squad without wasting a heavier template and the Hellhounds are great for clearing close combat infantry off our other tanks.

For Heavy Support I like the Ordnance Battery and Hydras. Having some cheap dedicated AA is helpful and Barage from the Ord batteries is always useful. I am sure the Fighters are great as well, but I have never tried them in practice (they are a bit $pricey$ ).

Glad to hear I'm not the only one that likes the Vanquisher. Do you like to put sponsons on it? Which ones? Multi-meltas match the profile of the other weapons pretty well, but the range is rather disappointing.

As much as I like fliers, I can't bring myself to look at the ones available in Heavy Support. They just don't seem to do enough to justify their pricetag. While the Avenger has some truly withering firepower, it's so expensive and fragile that I can't bring myself to field it.

For the Vanquisher I find it best not to use Sponsons, but to go with the Co-Ax Heavy Stubber and a Hull Lascannon. You don't want to spend too many points on it as you need those points for your other tanks.

If I take Multi-Melta Sponsons it's normally on a Demolisher as it matches the range nicely as well as both sets of weapons are useful against vehicles and Low Armor Save units.

If you put them on a demolisher, doesn't that force you to snap fire them when you shoot the main gun?

Good analysis. I am pouring over my IA1 book to make the meanest list I can with this army and I have to say Beast Hunter Shells top the chart for the ultimate cruelty.

Same profile as a Vanquisher but with small blast and Instant Death(!) on a BS4 tank they are absolutely deadly against anything with multiple wounds (bye bye Riptides, and very good change to take down Wraithknights as well). Even if you miss, with BS4 you have a good chance to hit something on the monster-base anyways.

I am also a fan of the Thunderer. There's plenty of things in the other slots to give you long range, but for 25 points less than a Demolisher you get... a Demolisher, albeit with somewhat less fire arc, still I am definitely running a squad of 2 in every army.

Another thing worth mentioning is the Artificer Hull for the Company Command Tanks. +1 HP is huge. I have been running Ork BW's a lot and let me tell you having 4HP is a total life saver when you start taking fire. For the points I would suggest it every time.

As far as sponsons go, for command and commissar tanks I am leaving them off, since they already have a hefty price tag. I feel like in an elite armor list you need to go for quantity of vehicles over fire power of each individual tank. I am no expert though so someone else tell me if I am wrong on this.


My current list looks like this:

CCT
Coax Stubber
Vanquisher w/beast hunters
Artificer hull


CCT
Coax Stubber
Vanquisher w/beast hunters
Artificer hull

Commissar Tank
coax stubber
vanquisher w/beast hunters

Commissar Tank
coax stubber
vanquisher w/beast hunters

2x Thunderer

1x something else for the min troops

2x Hydras (because there will be skimmers if there aren't flyers)

2x Colossus

ADL

That rounds off to about 1500, so at 1750 you're bringing a lot of fire power with not a lot of kill points, no scoring really so if you want to play to the mission you need to bring Armored Fist squads, which are pretty solid esp with a Commissar Tank near by to keep them in the fight.

Corollax wrote:
Glad to hear I'm not the only one that likes the Vanquisher. Do you like to put sponsons on it? Which ones? Multi-meltas match the profile of the other weapons pretty well, but the range is rather disappointing.

As much as I like fliers, I can't bring myself to look at the ones available in Heavy Support. They just don't seem to do enough to justify their pricetag. While the Avenger has some truly withering firepower, it's so expensive and fragile that I can't bring myself to field it.

I always use a Vanquisher as my HQ. Multi-melta sponsons, lascannon hull, and beast hunter shells. If I have left over points improved comms and an artificer hull are both usefull.
You're absolutely right about the heavy support fliers. The Avenger would be good if you also had a Vulture.

Here's the list I'm currently working on:
HQ
Company Command Tank – 255
• Vanquisher
• Lascannon
• Multi-melta sponsons
• Artificer Hull
• Improved Comms
• Beat Hunter Shells

Troops
Battle Tank Squadron – 390
• 2x Exterminators
• 2x Lascannons
• 2x Multi-melta sponsons

Siege Tank Squadron – 165
• Demolisher

Siege Tank Squadron – 165
• Demolisher

Fast Attack
Hellhound Squadron – 290
• 2x Hellhounds
• 2x Multi-meltas

Vulture Gunship – 155
• Twin-linked Punisher Gatling cannon

Heavy Support
Colossus Bombard Battery – 140
• 1x Colossus

Colossus Bombard Battery – 140
• 1x Colossus

Hydra Flak Tank Battery – 150
• 2x Hydra Flak Tanks

I've been considering plasma cannons instead of multi-meltas on the Exterminators. Any thoughts on which go better with the ex. autocannon and lascannon?

Ouch that looks freaking brutal!!!

If you had to choose between MM sponsons and a LC which would you suggest?

The only synergy between the Exterminator's main turret and the hull/sponson weapons are in tank hunting. Neither Heavy Bolters nor Plasma cannons fit with that. If you must put sponsons on it, I'd go with the multi-meltas.

Also, I've pretty much already gone over this, but have you considered replacing your Demolishers with Thunderers?

Corollax wrote:

Also, I've pretty much already gone over this, but have you considered replacing your Demolishers with Thunderers?

I have, yes. The biggest advantage the Demolisher has over the Thunderer is the turret. With how many tanks I have on the board I won't be able to maneuver a Thunderer perfectly every time. Also, lining up straight to get a shot can potentially be disastrous for a Thunderer. A Demolisher will always have its AV14 pointed where it should, while still getting solid shots off.

I'll admit I haven't tried the Thunderer, but I have had multiple occasions where an immobilized Demolisher owns a huge section of the board. With all the grav-guns around immobilizations will be more common.

Corollax wrote:
If you put them on a demolisher, doesn't that force you to snap fire them when you shoot the main gun?

Depending on how your group interprets the Heavy Vehicle rule.

I wasn't aware there was anything to interpret. If you fire an ordnance weapon, the rest of your guns have to snap fire. Page 71 is very clear on this, and the description of heavy vehicles on page 83 does nothing to change this.

Corollax wrote:
I wasn't aware there was anything to interpret. If you fire an ordnance weapon, the rest of your guns have to snap fire. Page 71 is very clear on this, and the description of heavy vehicles on page 83 does nothing to change this.

There are threads on this issue in YMDC if you are interested.

If you're talking about this thread, the issue seems to be pretty well settled. Russes have to snap fire their secondary weapons if they fire an ordnance turret.

No, I am referring to a different thread, but back on topic.

How do you guys try to deal with assault units? Without having the benefits of Overwatch and using higher number of Blast Markers, it makes it harder to deal with units that get close.

How I deal with it in most cases is Hellhounds and Leman Russ Punishers. The higher number of shots from the Punisher and the ability to maneuver the Torrent Flamer make them ideal for clearing out infantry where placing a blast marker is to risky.

I always use an HQ Vanquisher with no sponsons.

One tactic that I use isn't incredibly optimized, but has a huge psychological effect: Tech-Priest, Servitors, and an Atlas.

As soon as I tell people the Atlas gives the TP 2 repair rolls and re-rolls, they really pour on the fire at a relatively inexpensive unit.

Hell Hounds are the way to go for the points, more hits, higher str and AP than the Punisher, plus you can put a HF on them and move forward 12" while still firing both guns. 2 of them in a squad makes a nice counter assault wall that will tie up foot sloggers even if it gets killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, TBH to be really competitive you need to ally in either a big blob platoon or a mob of Ork Boyz to soak up assault units.

I am a huge fan of thunderers backed with melta vet squads in centaurs. The centaur become impossible to target behind a thunderer and the thunderer needs to advance anyways.

I like general grizmund as he lets you reroll the first miss. On a thunderer or basilisk this means rerolling a big scary pie plate.

I also like the vanquisher command tank with beast hunter shells. I usually take one as well as grizmund and sometimes a commissar version if I need more anti tank.

The vulture is a fantastic addition to these forces as it provides anti serpent, flyer, and troops as it can either mow down infantry or get behind flyers/serpents and glance them to death with ease.

For scoring I have taken to the centaur melta vets (they get tank hunter so they can really kill vehicles) or allied SM, DA, Elysians, DKoK assault brigade, or chaos daemons. I like the chaos daemons and the DA can be brutal with a PFG libby. Elysians are also pretty fun with their valk transports and DS troops.

 More Dakka wrote:
Hell Hounds are the way to go for the points, more hits, higher str and AP than the Punisher, plus you can put a HF on them and move forward 12" while still firing both guns. 2 of them in a squad makes a nice counter assault wall that will tie up foot sloggers even if it gets killed.

While I don't normally like Hellhounds, I have to admit that they fill an important niche in a Primary Contingent ABG army. I still feel that this is an area where allies help more, though.

 ansacs wrote:
I am a huge fan of thunderers backed with melta vet squads in centaurs. The centaur become impossible to target behind a thunderer and the thunderer needs to advance anyways.
<snip>
For scoring I have taken to the centaur melta vets (they get tank hunter so they can really kill vehicles) or allied SM, DA, Elysians, DKoK assault brigade, or chaos daemons. I like the chaos daemons and the DA can be brutal with a PFG libby. Elysians are also pretty fun with their valk transports and DS troops.

The thing that gets me about ABG melta vets is that you're paying extra for tank hunters, but you actually get less effectiveness than if you had just brought the extra meltagun that comes with Codex: IG veterans. Tank hunters is nice, but it doesn't help you hit, nor does it help you cope with cover saves and unlucky damage table results. Pointing an extra meltagun at the target does.

You're also paying as much as a 10 man Vet squad from codex IG for 5 guys before you even get a transport for them, so to me they're a no-go. Besides you can get enough other rocking anti tank for less points than the 5 man after a Centaur.

Need some input on a 2K list (tried posting in army lists forum but I don't think many people have IA1 etc that browse there).

It's 6 objectives (3 per player) + Kill Points for a cumulative battle point system (win draw loss). You get to pick your Warlord Trait but have to keep it all 3 games. I am going with the one that makes my Command Vanquisher scoring in this case.


HQ
Command Tank
Coax Stubber
Vanquisher w/beast hunters
Artificer Hull

Command Tank
Coax Stubber
Vanquisher w/beast hunters
Artificer Hull

Elites

Commissar Tank
Coax Stubber
Vanquisher w/beast hunters

Troops

2x Thunderers

1x Armored Fist Squad

1x Executioner
Plasma Sponsons

Heavy Support

2x Colossus
2x Hydras

Allies: Orks

Warboss with Mega Armor
Bosspole

30 Boyz (slugga choppa, to each enemy assaults, deter them etc)
Nob (no ubgrades just to eat challenges for the WB)

Aegis Defense Line

Comes to 2K on the dot, I am thinking it should work, holding the line while I smash things and only giving up a possible 11 KP at 2000.

Corollax wrote:
I've been looking at the Armoured Battlegroup list a lot lately, and I wanted to get some feedback from the forum regulars. Because the army itself has such issues with scoring, I think it's probably best reserved as an allied contingent.

IMO it's the other way around. Take ABG for 99999999999999 tanks, take an allied platoon with LC Sabre spam for your objective holders. All the ABG really needs from another army is scoring, and you can get that with 1-2 troops slots.

Corollax wrote:
As much as I like fliers, I can't bring myself to look at the ones available in Heavy Support. They just don't seem to do enough to justify their pricetag. While the Avenger has some truly withering firepower, it's so expensive and fragile that I can't bring myself to field it.

I don't think the price tag on the Avenger is really that bad, unless you mean the money cost. 170 points with hellfury missiles is cheaper than a decent LRBT, and you're going to have a hard time getting the tank to match the Avenger's firepower. Sure, it's a glass cannon, but it's a successful one. I've never regretted mine.

 More Dakka wrote:
Same profile as a Vanquisher but with small blast and Instant Death(!) on a BS4 tank they are absolutely deadly against anything with multiple wounds (bye bye Riptides, and very good change to take down Wraithknights as well). Even if you miss, with BS4 you have a good chance to hit something on the monster-base anyways.

Don't get too optimistic about them. Against Riptides you're wounding on a 2+ but you only get one shot they probably have a 3++ to stop it. Against Wraithknights you only wound on a 4+. Where the Vanquisher really dominates is Tyranid MCs, since you're always wounding on a 2+, and always have plenty of good targets.

 Col. Dracus wrote:
Depending on how your group interprets the Heavy Vehicle rule.

There is absolutely nothing to interpret. The Heavy rule has noting to do with ordnance weapons, no matter how many bad YMDC threads you can find.

 Peregrine wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Same profile as a Vanquisher but with small blast and Instant Death(!) on a BS4 tank they are absolutely deadly against anything with multiple wounds (bye bye Riptides, and very good change to take down Wraithknights as well). Even if you miss, with BS4 you have a good chance to hit something on the monster-base anyways.

Don't get too optimistic about them. Against Riptides you're wounding on a 2+ but you only get one shot they probably have a 3++ to stop it. Against Wraithknights you only wound on a 4+. Where the Vanquisher really dominates is Tyranid MCs, since you're always wounding on a 2+, and always have plenty of good targets.

Forcing the Riptide to nova charge its shield instead of letting it power its weapons has merit in itself, too. A small factor in the grand scope of things but it does count.

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it's the other way around. Take ABG for 99999999999999 tanks, take an allied platoon with LC Sabre spam for your objective holders. All the ABG really needs from another army is scoring, and you can get that with 1-2 troops slots.

If the ABG had competitive options for heavy support, I'd absolutely agree with you. Getting to designate a Russ as my warlord instead of a CCS is reason alone. As it is, I'm just a little too reluctant to give up my heavy artillery carriages. There's also the fact that I want a Flamer PCS and a plasmavet squad to ride in my Vendettas. I'm not sure that I need more than one troop Russ.

Just for clarification, does the ABG allow you to take more than one Vendetta/Vulture squadron? Part of my reason for using them as allies was because I wasn't sure if I could take more than one flyer with them.

 Peregrine wrote:
I don't think the price tag on the Avenger is really that bad, unless you mean the money cost. 170 points with hellfury missiles is cheaper than a decent LRBT, and you're going to have a hard time getting the tank to match the Avenger's firepower. Sure, it's a glass cannon, but it's a successful one. I've never regretted mine.

Oh, I don't dispute that the firepower justifies the point cost. The Avenger is one of the most lethal models you can purchase in standard 40k. It's just that every time I've tried to field it, it never survived longer than a turn. Still, I appreciate the advice. Thanks.

Corollax wrote:
If the ABG had competitive options for heavy support, I'd absolutely agree with you.

IMO it does. The Avenger is great, Griffons and BBS Medusas are still good options. Even Hydras become a viable option now that you're no longer throwing away all of your LRBTs if you take them.

As it is, I'm just a little too reluctant to give up my heavy artillery carriages.

Obviously they're good, but do they really fit with the AV 14 target saturation plan? Sabre/artillery spam is a good list, but I don't think I'd want to take a hybrid artillery gunline + ABG list.

Just for clarification, does the ABG allow you to take more than one Vendetta/Vulture squadron? Part of my reason for using them as allies was because I wasn't sure if I could take more than one flyer with them.

No. You get 0-1 gunship squadron, which can be composed of 1-3 Vendetta/Vulture/Valkyrie (all the same type). But IMO a Vulture/Vendetta from the ABG, a Vulture/Vendetta from allies, and 2-3 Avengers is a pretty nice pile of flyers. Any more than that and you might as well play Elysians.

Well, I had hoped to get an extra Vulture from my allies selection, and the ABG Vanquisher seemed a more attractive option than HQs available elsewhere.

My intention was to field a pair of Vendettas and pair of Vultures with artillery support. Since the ABG Vanquisher was so much more effective and versatile than the standard variant, I thought it was worth giving it a try. The ABG would also let me field satisfy my troop requirement without needing an additional transport.

I'm not committed to the idea, so I don't mind criticism. If Russes and Artillery are too defensively dissimilar to achieve target saturation, then that's what I need to hear.

Forgot to reply to this earlier:

Corollax wrote:
Well, I had hoped to get an extra Vulture from my allies selection, and the ABG Vanquisher seemed a more attractive option than HQs available elsewhere.

I guess if your main/only goal is to get an extra Vulture then taking ABG allies is probably going to work better than the only other option (Elysians).

If Russes and Artillery are too defensively dissimilar to achieve target saturation, then that's what I need to hear.

IMO it's somewhat about target saturation. Obviously your MC gunline is durable like your AV 14 tanks, but dropping from AV 14 to T7 does suddenly give all those mid-strength weapons something to shoot at. But the bigger issue is the role overlap. Artillery guns and LRBTs both have similar roles, and turning some of those 4+ artillery units (using Krieg siege allies) into LRBTs seems like less of an upgrade and more of just having different stuff to have different stuff. The ABG only feels like it has a purpose if you're really spamming tanks in ways you can't do effectively with other lists.

Can anyone see any use for Leman Russ Conquerors? I've always liked the concept but the rules just don't seem to like the tank very much.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Can anyone see any use for Leman Russ Conquerors? I've always liked the concept but the rules just don't seem to like the tank very much.

Nope. It's a 4th edition relic that doesn't make any sense anymore. Just proxy it as a standard LRBT.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Can anyone see any use for Leman Russ Conquerors? I've always liked the concept but the rules just don't seem to like the tank very much.

Leman Russ Conquerors have been laughably bad since Ordnance gained the ability to move and fire, and they were quite dubious before. Just pretend they don't exist...

Message received...

Good that vanquishers are good, because they're my favorite russ variant.

The warlord traits seem a mixed bag. Turn One night fight is situationally useful. Maybe against mass IF devastators or something, but most things that can knock out russes turn 1 won't be phased by night fight much. An outflanking vehicle squadron with acute senses is pretty cool. 12" stubborn bubble isn't that useful in a vehicle army, most of your infantry doesn't want to get into melee anyway. Useful for allies though. Boost to flat out is useless because russes can't go flat out. Making the warlord scoring is really good. The ramming one is awesome, not partilularly useful, but awesome.

Basically you're holding out for 2 or 5