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So, what is everyones opinion on vanguard and honor guard units? I love the fluff, I love the models, can they work well in game? and what is your favorite C:SM elite unit

I can't speak for 6th edition, but in 5th:

Vanguards were too expensive
Honour Guard ... were ok, but still expensive

Both not scoring broke their neck. Why using Honour Guard if you can take TH/SS-Terminators?
Vanguards were simply too expensive ... their Heroic Intervention was very nice (not like now) but with power weapons (else they made no sense) they got extremely pricey - and not worth it.

daisho wrote:
I can't speak for 6th edition, but in 5th:

Vanguards were too expensive
Honour Guard ... were ok, but still expensive

Both not scoring broke their neck. Why using Honour Guard if you can take TH/SS-Terminators?
Vanguards were simply too expensive ... their Heroic Intervention was very nice (not like now) but with power weapons (else they made no sense) they got extremely pricey - and not worth it.

If you can't speak for this edition, why say anything at all? That's like saying "I really liked Unit X in 4th Edition. What has that got to do with 6th Edition? Oh, nothing really, except I like to say I liked Unit X in 4th Edition."

Both of those units have completely changed in points values and options since 5th Ed.

The Honor Guard have increased in size (max 10 guys now), but the options have been reduced. The 2+/Power Weapon combo is very nice with them, and you can upgrade them to a Relic Blade, but you can only get one T-Hammer. That's it for options. No heavy weapons, no special weapons. As an escort for a Chapter Master, I think I'd rather get a command squad. Way more options, cheaper, and you can get an Apothecary. If you could get jump packs with the Honor Guard, or an Apothecary, they may be worth it. As is, I can't help but think that Terminators would be a better way to spend points. At least the honor Guard don't take up a force organization slot, and that 2+ armor save is very nice.

Vanguard... with the change to Heroic Intervention, I really can't see anyone taking these guys over an Assault Squad. You are paying a premium in points for a Vet with +1 attack and +1 Leadership. It was a cruel thing to remove Veteran Squads and replace them with Vanguard Veterans. Lots more options then an Assault Squad or Honor Guard, but you definitely pay the points. You can kit them out for shooting, or you can look down one entry in the Codex and see the Sternguard... the best Dakka unit in the Space Marine Codex.

Bottom Line: Play what you want. You won't see either unit in a competitive environment, but not everyone plays in tournaments all the time. As a center piece to your army, you can't beat the look of an Honor Guard accompanying the Chapter Master into battle. Both units suffer from the issue of being melee centric units in this edition. 6th is firmly the Dakka Dakka edition.

 Tamwulf wrote:
As an escort for a Chapter Master, I think I'd rather get a command squad. Way more options, cheaper, and you can get an Apothecary. If you could get jump packs with the Honor Guard, or an Apothecary, they may be worth it. As is, I can't help but think that Terminators would be a better way to spend points.

You'd have to get a Captain, Librarian or Chaplain to unlock the Command Squad. Chapter Master doesn't get that, but he can still join the unit if you have it on the field.

On the other hand, the Chapter Master is generally going to be a CC beatstick and the Command Squad can't really keep up with him in that respect.

 Wilytank wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
As an escort for a Chapter Master, I think I'd rather get a command squad. Way more options, cheaper, and you can get an Apothecary. If you could get jump packs with the Honor Guard, or an Apothecary, they may be worth it. As is, I can't help but think that Terminators would be a better way to spend points.

You'd have to get a Captain, Librarian or Chaplain to unlock the Command Squad. Chapter Master doesn't get that, but he can still join the unit if you have it on the field.

On the other hand, the Chapter Master is generally going to be a CC beatstick and the Command Squad can't really keep up with him in that respect.

They also make for an excellent, cheap counter-assault unit, they are pretty decent for their points.

ok, so after some numbers, a 5 man vanguard unit, in a drop pod, (might as well try to make use of HI) with storm shields and lightening claws = a total of 255 points, ouch. still more melee and survive ability than the assault squad imo.

I have not got any of the 6th ed stuff yet.
But sternguard vets are definitely at the top of my to buy list.
They look awesome and have tons of spare pieces.

I cant say I like the idea of pod vanguards. having a turn of getting shot the feth up doesn't sound like a good use of 250

The honor guards suffer from no bikes/jet packs so they need something beefy to get them to the front line. Usually limited to a land raider, though a drop pod could have potential as that unit should be able to tank asides from a riptide or vindicator. What do you guys think of accompanied tech marines in a raider? you can give him 2 not power fists, and has a 4+ chance? at repairing a vehicle it rides in.

If we are talking of Elites is C:SM we are talking of sternguards ! They are simply the best unit in the Marines book ! Do not get me wrong they have their faults but they are great ! They are simply devastating ! Regarding Vanguards , well i like them but i rarely field them , they are very good for small boards with lots of terrain or Deathwatch games where they rock , lots of cover and line of sight blockers are a great way for then to get in CC.

 GarretAsh wrote:
They are simply the best unit in the Marines book !

I think sternguard, but Bikers are better value for points IMO.

my first attempt with honor guard will be a 6 man squad with my libby, (tig) in a stormraven. tig will always have that amazing 4++ physic power love his rerolls. so now for 200 points I have 6 honor guard with 2+/4++ (ok tig has his points but brings lots of other stuff to the table ) and if need be those can be power axes, but usually just run swords. though relic blades sound nice for the +2 str. but if I give them all RB thats another 50 points :/ thoughts? I may drop the vanguards for more sternguards, gah, but if the vanguards get off heroic intervention then woot woot.

 GarretAsh wrote:
If we are talking of Elites is C:SM we are talking of sternguards ! They are simply the best unit in the Marines book ! Do not get me wrong they have their faults but they are great ! They are simply devastating ! Regarding Vanguards , well i like them but i rarely field them , they are very good for small boards with lots of terrain or Deathwatch games where they rock , lots of cover and line of sight blockers are a great way for then to get in CC.

Best Elite choice I could believe, but they are just barely passable. Too many points now that they cranked up the cost of combi-weapons and without them they are slightly shootier (and 57% more expensive than) tactical squad really.

In 5th they were a combi-weapon delivery unit that could sometimes hold their own afterwards. Now they are a squad that can sometimes hold their own. Pass on them IMO.

 raiden wrote:
my first attempt with honor guard will be a 6 man squad with my libby, (tig) in a stormraven. tig will always have that amazing 4++ physic power love his rerolls. so now for 200 points I have 6 honor guard with 2+/4++ (ok tig has his points but brings lots of other stuff to the table ) and if need be those can be power axes, but usually just run swords. though relic blades sound nice for the +2 str. but if I give them all RB thats another 50 points :/ thoughts? I may drop the vanguards for more sternguards, gah, but if the vanguards get off heroic intervention then woot woot.

Remember you need a chapter master to unlock the HG as well. Tiggy only has a 75% chance to get the 4++ invul as well. Tiggy + Chapter master + honor guard + storm raven = almost 750 point. That's a lot to sink into 1 melee squad and it's delivery system.

yes, but the CM is going to be in my army anyway., tiggy does his own thing and buffs others, the SR can blow tanks or hunt infantry, its a system to boost the effectiveness of honorguard, but the other still bring their own things. (SR is espensive :(.) atm I a trying to decide on whether I should being some elites (sternguard.vanguard) or just go bikes/tacs and be boring . also imo the chapter champion should have 2 wounds :/

Best Elite choice I could believe, but they are just barely passable. Too many points now that they cranked up the cost of combi-weapons and without them they are slightly shootier (and 57% more expensive than) tactical squad really.

In 5th they were a combi-weapon delivery unit that could sometimes hold their own afterwards. Now they are a squad that can sometimes hold their own. Pass on them IMO.

Well that is debatable ,i play a 750 points games with a squad of 6 sterns with 3 combi plasmas and they made 2.30 times there points back , so they kiil around 450 points , killing one 10 man chaos unit and making another run , they where wiped out by obliterators later but still worth their price.

Regarding the Chapter Master have you tried Assault Marines ? A chapter master with Relic blade , storm shield and Artifice Armour with 10 bare bone assault marines , it will give you good abrasive wounds , have fast movement (if you play raven guard even more) the sarge can take challenges( i personally get then a power weapon and a combat shield) and they are not that expensive.

I actually like the Vanguard much, much better now. 5th edition heroic intervention was highly overrated. My BA literally never lost to a list running 5th ed Vanguard. They were that overcosted.

My friend runs sternguard and honor guard fairly regularly with his Crimson Fists. If you're running Pedro, I think both of those make a lot of sense. Sternguard are great, but they're even better when they're scoring, and honor guard with Pedro are pretty nasty. They keep him alive, and he gives them +1A. He gets a lot of mileage out of both of those units.

Vanguard, on the other hand, were less utilized with the old codex due to their cost. But he still leaned on them occasionally with a drop pod with homing beacon to be sure they could come in reliably and annihilate one target before dying. Now with the new codex, in the few games we've played, I think he really wants the Vanguard to work because they're cheaper, but they're just not durable enough. It's the same problem a lot of melee units have now in 6th - without a reliable delivery method, or a board with enough terrain to leapfrog behind, you're just a target.

Martel732 wrote:I actually like the Vanguard much, much better now. 5th edition heroic intervention was highly overrated. My BA literally never lost to a list running 5th ed Vanguard. They were that overcosted.

Better yes....Good enough to be competitive? Nope, not in my opinion anyways.

GarretAsh wrote:

Best Elite choice I could believe, but they are just barely passable. Too many points now that they cranked up the cost of combi-weapons and without them they are slightly shootier (and 57% more expensive than) tactical squad really.

In 5th they were a combi-weapon delivery unit that could sometimes hold their own afterwards. Now they are a squad that can sometimes hold their own. Pass on them IMO.

Well that is debatable ,i play a 750 points games with a squad of 6 sterns with 3 combi plasmas and they made 2.30 times there points back , so they kiil around 450 points , killing one 10 man chaos unit and making another run , they where wiped out by obliterators later but still worth their price.

Regarding the Chapter Master have you tried Assault Marines ? A chapter master with Relic blade , storm shield and Artifice Armour with 10 bare bone assault marines , it will give you good abrasive wounds , have fast movement (if you play raven guard even more) the sarge can take challenges( i personally get then a power weapon and a combat shield) and they are not that expensive.

6 Sternguard killing half of your opponent's 750 pt army? How bad is he?

Assault marines? Awful, at least in any config outside of the 5 + 2 flamers + droppod suicide anti-infantry unit....and I'd rather have a Storm Talon, some attack bikes or Hyperios launchers in the FA slot and get my anti-infantry from TF cannons and troop choices.

Relic blades are dead in 6th, AP2 weapon or GTFO of melee with a 200+ point character. Chapter masters are used to unlock bike troops and honor guard, or to build a pseudo blender character. They sure as hell shouldn't be swinging a relic blade with a bunch of assault marines with a jump pack.

Well you can use what ever you want but I rather take a less useful combination that to play the same army over and over again , this is a game after all, How many times do you see assault marines in the 6th ? Not that often but the look on the opponents face when he gets charged by 2 units of 10 raven guard assault marines its priceless ! Of course assault terminators do it better but where is the fun in that ? Beside if we take "inferior" units it put us as a greater disadvantage and we are forced to evolve and adapt and by doing that be better players , i do not want to win because my units are over the top( hello helldrakes and ripetides) i wan to win because i am a better tactician and player that the other guy.

Honor Guard, with their new price, can be quite good. The right application of a blob of 2+ saves can win you a game.

Unless it's against one of those newfangled armies with their AP2 everywhere, and that's the biggest thing that keeps me away from them. Honor Guard die like dogs to anything AP2, and don't really hit their stride until CC, which usually requires them to sit tight for a turn somewhere while getting shot at, unless you invest a lot of points in a transport system.

Vanguard Veterans are better, but I feel like they still aren't quite good enough. They're basically better assault marines, so if you're building a jump pack army they're good, but their 3+ save and the difficulties of getting them into cc make them tough for me to stomach.

As for the rest of C:SM elites, I really like Sternguard still. I usually take them naked or with fairly minimal upgrades. I try to use in pods, and take enough pods that I can either bring them on turn 1 for an alpha strike, or leave them in reserve to strike as squishy targets later.

Dreadnoughts are meh. They need something to make them worthwhile again.

Ironclads can be good in the right situation. I feel like in an IH army they could really do some damage.

Legion of the Damned are very solid now. Vet statline for 25 points is nice, but that 3++ built in is gold. Re-rolling scatter dice is sexy, and with ALL of their ranged attacks ignoring cover, they can easily murder hordes hiding behind things. Take a plasmagun, combi-plas on the Sgt, and a lascannon on another, and using their slow and purposeful you can pump out 5 high S AP 2 ignores cover shots the turn they land, which is enough to make any elite infantry unit cry. On the whole, if my army lists weren't built around making things scoring that aren't normally scoring (bikes, sternguard, etc.) I would probably stuff some LotD in there.

Terminators haven't really changed, and have probably gotten worse in meta by attrition. More AP2 stuff in the meta makes them tougher to use. Still good in the right situation with the right delivery system.

I can't speak to Assault Centurions.