Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My goal is to have a balanced list. Constructive criticism and comments appreciated

H.Q. #1:
- overlord with rez orb (120)
- lord with rez orb (65)

Troops #1 to #3:
25x Warriors (325); Claim objectives
- 10 in night scythe with overlord in night scythe
- 10 in night scythe with lord in night scythe
- 5 in night scythe with
- 3 night scythes (300); Anti-air & anti-hoard/troops

Elites #1:
- Triarch Stalker (150); Anti-TEQ & AV14
- Triarch Stalker (150); Anti-TEQ & AV14

Fast Attack #1:
- 5 wraiths; 4 with whip coils, 1 with a particle caster (220); Anti-Monstrous Creatures
Fast Attack #2:
- 5 wraiths with whip coils (225); Anti-Monstrous Creatures
Fast Attack #3:
- 2 wraiths with whip coils (90); Guard the Doomsday Ark from deep-striking anti-artillery units

Heavy Support #1:
- Annihilation Barge (90); Anti-hoard/troops
Heavy Support #2:
- Annihilation Barge (90); Anti-hoard/troops
Heavy Support #3:
- Doomsday Ark (175); Anti-TEQ & AV14

2000 Points

Cheese. I dont like "The List" which you're fielding.

However, You only listed one over lord and one lord, but have 2 over lords in the scythes.

Oops! Fixed the issue with the extra overlord (it shouldn't have been there)

What don't you like about it? I've heard "cheese" to mean a lot of things -- on one hand "cheese" could mean "looks strong but is weak" (as in: fielding 6 Doom Scythes but nothing substantial to claim objectives) or it could just mean "taking advantage of all the best stuff in the codex". I've only ever played against people who play to win (social/fun guys, just competitive to the bone) -- so I don't see the problem. I'm actually just trying to make a TAC/balanced list (been working on it since August), not trying to flaunt anything

I figure that if it can take on the following, then all bases ought to be covered:
- Hoards of troops
- TEQ
- AV14
- Flyers
- (Flying) Monstrous Creatures
- Claiming objectives

So -- what's not good about the list? Not balanced?

I think if you're gonna run av13, skip the nightscythes and get 3 ghost arks. Otherwise dump the triarch stalkers, your shooting is already mostly twin linked. Drop some warriors to make room for harbingers of the storm in each flyer.

Thanks! I think I'll keep the night scythes because they're my only anti-air units -- but I REALLY like your idea about making room for Harbingers of the Storm. If I drop the Triarch Stalkers, I'll only have 1 unit that's Anti-TEQ & AV14 -- what would you recommend that I do to replace that Anti-TEQ & AV14 firepower? I was thinking 20 scarab bases, but since I'm kind of new to 6th edition, I was told that they'd have trouble against skimmers, be vulnerable to flamers and blasts. What I'm looking for is something(s) that can really handle TEQ and AV14 on their own

I've been working all summer on this list, so I'm really excited to nitpick it haha

You've got gauss up the wazoo, you'll glance out any AV 14 things with pot shots from the arks and warriors inside. Also, the harbinger of the storm can pretty much kill any vehicle in one turn. Weight of dice will take out guys with 2+ saves, as long as they don't have FNP or rerolls or something silly.

Very cool/interesting/omoshiroi <-- Japanese has both words in 1. I'll look into putting Ghost Arks instead of Night Scythes -- but like I said, my flyers are the only anti-flyers.. you don't think the list would lose balance if I took them out?

Aside from using the night scythes as anti-air, here's my reasoning: my plan is to bring in the night scythes at around turn 4 or 5 to claim objectives (the number of Warriors in each unit is just to make them resilient against enemy fire -- the group of 5 Warriors is just redundancy). That being said, I won't have the Warriors on the table to rapid fire TEQ or AV14 until late-game

All that aside, what would you replace the Stalkers with? I'd like to know how you'd play the list and what you'd choose differently. 300 points is a lot of choice..

I feel like Triarch Stalkers don't really do much for your current list configuration because most of your shooting is already twin-linked. I'd say drop them and the Doomsday Ark, get a 3rd Anni Barge and bring all your Wraiths up to 6x. You only really need 2-3 guys with whips in each Wraith unit, having more dudes to enough survive to hit combat is key.

On the flip side, you could keep the Stalkers and add in ghost arks instead of nightscythes (whose firepower gets a lot scarier when its twin-linked). I'd dump the court lord and put harbingers of the storm in each ghost ark, maybe only have 5-7 warriors in each one and try to have 4ish total. You could run Zahndrekh too if you really want an overlord with a res orb, and he can give your arks things like tank hunter or stealth, or furious charge to wraiths.

After reading your comments I started looking on the internet for opinions on "ghost ark or night scythe". I found that most people agree with you: arks over scythes. I'd like to hear why you prefer arks rather than scythes.

Here's my reasoning..

1. I really like Night Scythes because:
- Unless my opponent has a list that's balanced to take on flyers, I generally don't have trouble with taking out things with skyfire
- If my opponent's list doesn't have anything with skyfire (or if I've destroyed it all, which usually happens as they're target priorities for me), then he's hitting me on a 6+ which, statistically, is the same as a 2+ invulnerable save (done 'before the fact', rather than 'after the fact')
- I can bring my models onto the table during the late part of the game, which is a way of protecting them throughout the course of the battle. This is good too, because my style of play usually has Warriors around mostly just to claim objectives
- Their weapons (unlike the Ghost Ark) are the same as A-Barges and hence really sweet for killing troops, in addition to other flyers. With multiple Night Scythes, I can even target TEQs and chance at killing flying monstrous creatures
- They're anti-flyer models by virtue of simply being flyers
- My buddies are very competitive and I'm one of the few people in the group who's taken the time to learn (experiment, read about, etc) flyer and anti-flyer tactics, so I feel that I generally have an edge on most people in my circle in that regard

2. I haven't been using Arks because:
- I want to keep my Warriors safely off the battlefield so I can drop them onto objectives late into the game
- In my style of play, my Warriors are generally for claiming objectives while I let Wraiths and Scarabs (although not in this list) get their hands dirty
- I'm not a fan of the wargear; I'd rather have Tesla Destructors on flyers

That's my reasoning -- why do you think Arks are better than Scythes? Or do you just think it's situational to my list?

I only have an issue with the wraiths. Since you have 12 wraiths and its a doubled force organisation chart at 2000 points why not have 4 squads of 3 and take a particle caster and whip coils and a transdimensional beamer in each I run that and find against monstrous creatures and independent characters cannot handle this kind of focus. Not to mention they soak up firepower like nobodies business because of that all important 3++ save. Hope this helps
Darkhorse19

Don't get me wrong, I like scythes better than arks too, but they also have different roles. It's just that arks have synergy with stalkers while scythes don't, so I presented that option to you as something to look into.

If you run wraiths on squads of 3, they wont do much. Transdimensional beamers are worthless, they can only snap shot if you move.

Re the Scythe vs ark question, imo it is situational for your list. You have a lot of points invested in Stalkers, a key benefit from which (twin linking) you don't really use (well, maybe for the DA).

For the 300 points you could make a squad of crypteks (say Veiltek, 2x Stormtek) which would be more flexible (and better against AV14) plus deathmarks, as an example. Or you could get a squad of immortals (or warriors and seriously bubble wrap that DA). (I'm not going to put in the other double FOC options).

One other thing, I think the min squad for wraiths is 3, not 2. +1 for ditching beamers.

Why would you snapshot the beamer wraiths are relentless and against infantry hq like mephiston who cant go in squads its proven effective and squads of 3 are the usual amount to take

They are no longer relentless and squads of 3 will get shot to pieces before they arrive anywhere. I think 6 is the way to go for wraith units.

This post is getting a lot of good ideas! First of all thank you everyone! I'll go through some quotes that I thought were interesting (can you tell I'm a student..?) and then figure something out from there

 RobPro wrote:
I feel like Triarch Stalkers don't really do much for your current list configuration because most of your shooting is already twin-linked. I'd say drop them and the Doomsday Ark, get a 3rd Anni Barge and bring all your Wraiths up to 6x. You only really need 2-3 guys with whips in each Wraith unit, having more dudes to enough survive to hit combat is key.

On the flip side, you could keep the Stalkers and add in ghost arks instead of nightscythes (whose firepower gets a lot scarier when its twin-linked). I'd dump the court lord and put harbingers of the storm in each ghost ark, maybe only have 5-7 warriors in each one and try to have 4ish total.

I feel like the value of your suggestion comes from the weapons on the Annihilation Barges: twin-linked Tesla Destructors for killing mobs, troops and potentially TEQ if I focus my firepower on a single unit or two. Having the weapons on the field from turn-1 is an advantage that Scythes don't offer, which the Barges do -- but with a comms relay, it could be worth it..

About the Stalkers, I also think you're right: they're eating a lot of valuable points that could be maximised elsewhere, so I got rid of them. Then I started to think: I'm a big fan of having a Doomsday Ark and Night Scythes, but I should really consider which is better (for my list?): Scythes or Arks? And also, if I should drop the D.-Ark or keep it. This made things a little easier to consider:

 RobPro wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I like scythes better than arks too, but they also have different roles. It's just that arks have synergy with stalkers while scythes don't, so I presented that option to you as something to look into.

With the Stalkers gone (+300pts), the list has to be re-calibrated. I really like what the Night Scythes are doing for me: providing the same weapons as the A-Barges, plus aerial transport. With 70 points for a comms relay and defence line, I could have more control over when my flyers come in, so I actually decided to drop the A-Barges altogether. That gave me another 180 points (480 total) to play with. I looked at my anti-AV14 list and only the D-Ark qualifies, so I re-invested points in Scarab swarms to act as tar-pits and anti-AV14.

I agree with RobPro and darkhorse19: I should bump up the Wraiths, so I started by merging all the Wraiths into two squads of 6. I can't agree with the beamer idea though, although if they were relentless, that'd be totally Boss!!

Then I thought about where I wanted to invest the rest of my points -- what was missing? I try to account for:
1. Terminators (2+3+)
2. Armour 14
3. Hordes
4. Flyers
5. (Flying) Monstrous Creatures

I generally use my Wraiths for killing MEQ troops and Monstrous Creatures, so I felt that I was lacking anti-TEQ. I thought about putting another D-Ark in there, but I prefer to diversify -- so I went for one more flyer, the Doom Scythe (giving me a total of 4 flyers -- great for aerial offence/defence). In the end this is my modified list combining both your ideas and mine:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fortifications:
- Aegis defence line with comms relay (70); defence line guarding Doomsday Arks

H.Q. #1:
- overlord (90)
H.Q. #2:
- overlord (90)

Troops #1 to #3:
30x Warriors (390); Claim objectives
- 10 in night scythe with overlord (warlord)
- 10 in night scythe with overlord
- 5 in night scythe
- 5 guarding the Doomsday Ark
- 3 night scythes (300); Anti-air & anti-hoard/troops

Fast Attack #1:
- 5 Wraiths; 4 with whip coils, 1 with a particle caster (220); Anti-Monstrous Creatures & TEQ
Fast Attack #2:
- 6 Wraiths; 5 with whip coils, 1 with a particle caster (265); Anti-Monstrous Creatures & TEQ
Fast Attack #3:
- 10 Canoptek Scarab swarms (150); Anti-AV14, troops & tying up hoards
Fast Attack #4:
- 5 Canoptek Scarab swarms (75); Anti-AV14, troops & tying up hoards

Heavy Support #1:
- Doom Scythe (175); Anti-TEQ, AV14, air, hoard/troops
Heavy Support #2:
- Doomsday Ark (175); Anti-TEQ, AV14, hoard/troops & taking out ground to air units & operating the relay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because of all the flyers in my list, I would prioritise (as usual) bombing anything with the Skyfire special rule and watch myself around Tau! But I'm confident in my flyer strategies, so I'm not too worried about having so many flyers. Worst case, I can exchange one (or some) Night Scythe(s) for Ghost Arks, which brings me to the next point..:

At this point I'm considering exchanging 1 Night Scythe and some Whip Coils for a Ghost Ark. That would give me a good mob of Wraiths, Scarabs and Warriors (inside an Ark) pushing forward just decimating everything in sight (and if it fails, imagining all that carnage would be awesome as well!). I would also just let the opponent "take" the D-Ark if he can get to it, figuring that even 1 or 2 rounds of shooting with it would be worth it (taking out a bunch of ork boyz, terminators or a land raider would be sweet).

I know that was a lot but I'm passionate about 40k so...
If you think this list is weak or could be improved, let me know. I had to sacrifice a lot to fit everything in there, so getting Crypteks is a little rough -- but if you still think it's worth it, let me know. Oh yeah, and notice how I've sacrificed my beloved rez. orbs to make the list possible.. :p

The new list looks fun, and gives you better tactical flexibility. You need to reorganise your troop slot though. I only count 3 troop and you need 4 for a legal double FOC list.

MarkCron wrote:
The new list looks fun, and gives you better tactical flexibility. You need to reorganise your troop slot though. I only count 3 troop and you need 4 for a legal double FOC list.

Thanks! I went back and edited the list

Looking at the revision, I suggest that the overlords need MSS, preferably MSS + Weave as a minimum.


Suggest that you ditch the particle casters, then reduce whipcoils to say 2 per squad. Alternatively, drop casters, less whipcoils and 1 scarab base (possibly 2...8 should be enough).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a separate point, you really should try a GA based army (or even just a blob of warriors with GA support) sometime. I think you'll be surprised how much board control you'll have and how effective they can be (assuming you don't get assaulted).

I don't want to lose too many Scarabs since having so many flows into my old Tyranid tactics, so I'm not sure. I've fielded 12 Scarabs before in tandem with my Wraiths and it just never seems like enough, which is why I'm already hesitant about having 15. That being said they attract a lot of attention, distracting away from other things..

As for the Wraiths, I usually only end up losing 2 or 3, so I guess you're right -- I could remove 3 more whip coils from the first squad (I have them running one group behind the other so as to create a 'screen' effect -- usually the first squad loses a couple of Wraiths). However if I do that, I'll be down to 2 with Whip Coils and 3 with nothing on them -- you think that can work for headlong charges across the tabletop?

For the wraiths, 2 is enough. 3 is probably better, but 2 will do. Just bubble wrap the coils until you get within charge range.

Re the scarabs, I actually prefer 7-9 per unit. That seems to be around the level where i get a good mix of being able to hide easier, but still take down a tac squad in a couple of turns (allowing for overwatch etc).

If you are using Nid tactics with them, treat them like genestealers when moving across the board!

I really like Scarab bases, theyre cheap and eat tanks

MarkCron wrote:
The new list looks fun, and gives you better tactical flexibility. You need to reorganise your troop slot though. I only count 3 troop and you need 4 for a legal double FOC list.

You can do that by dividing the warriors. 20 is the max squad size not 30 so you could run them as 2 squads of 15