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This is just a fun list I cooked up and would like your feedback on


*************** 2 HQ ***************

Spirit Seer
- - - > joins Wraithguard squad inside Wave Serpent and proceeds to claim objectives or sweep the enemy firebase away



*************** 1 Elites ***************


10 Striking Scorpions (incl. an Exarch w. Scorpion's Claw)


*************** 4 Troops ***************

3 Windrider Jetbikes
- 1 x Shuriken Cannon
-> tertiary objective grabber

6 Rangers
-> good allrounder unit that sits back and shoots / guards home objective

5 Wraithblades (infiltrate)
- Ghost Axes & Force Shields
-> secondary objective grabber / fire magnet

5 Wraithguard
- D-Scythes
+ Wave Serpent
- T-L Scatterlaser
- Shuriken Cannon
- Spiritstones
- Holofields
-> primary objective grabber



*************** 3 Fast Attack ***************

Crimson Hunter
- - - > Hunts enemy flyers and after that, tanks and MCs

6 Swooping Hawks
- - - > anti-infantry and anti-tank duty...got a big blast grenade pack

Vyper w. Brightlance
- - - > secondary tank hunter


*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************

Fire Prism
- Shuriken Cannon
- Holofields
- - - > primary anti-MEQ and anti-TEQ support

Wraithknight
- Sun Cannon & Shield
- 1 x Scatterlaser
- - - > secondary anti-MEQ and anti-TEQ support

Wraithknight
- Sun Cannon & Shield
- 1 x Scatterlaser
- - - > tertiary anti-MEQ and anti-TEQ support

Total: 1998 points

Just FYI, infiltrating Karandras with a unit that doesn't have infiltrate doesn't work due to the timing of deployment. Thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/531412.page

If you talk to your playgroup maybe they'll give you a rules exception, but in a tournament setting it won't fly.

As far as strategy goes, I'm not sure you need 8 Rangers in the backfield unless you know you'll be playing against lists with lots of MC's. A squad of 5 should do the job they're meant to do (sit in terrain on an objective and plink away) just fine.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of Spirit Stones on Wave Serpents. If you're expecting enough fire to cause penetrating hits, you shouldn't be firing your Serpent Shield anyway, since Spirit Stones don't do anything against Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized/Explodes.

I also prefer the Heavy Wraithcannon loadout on at least one of the WK's if not both. A Crimson Hunter and a Fire Prism isn't enough firepower against heavy armor for my tastes, and you've got plenty of anti-MEQ/TEQ as is. Plus it's 60 points cheaper.

And FWIW, I wouldn't rely on Swooping Hawks as "anti-tank". Sure, they can fill that role if the right opportunity arises, but they are much too fragile to depend on them getting into close combat with a vehicle.

Incorrect!

An Independent Character confers infiltrate to his unit.

A unit cannot confer it onto a character.

Tournament Approved.


That being said.. I think you could do better in terms of cheese... Have you ever considered outflanking Karandras in a wave serpent with Wraith Scythes? It's fun

 Iyandenseer wrote:
Incorrect!

An Independent Character confers infiltrate to his unit.

A unit cannot confer it onto a character.

Tournament Approved.

I believe what he meant was:

"A unit with Infiltrate deploys after all other units are deployed.

An IC can only join a unit by both being in reserve (so you can give Outflank) or by being deployed in coherency.

But you cannot deploy the Wraithguard in coherency with Karandras as he is deployed after all non-infiltrating units are deployed and that forces you to deploy the Wraithguard before they gain Karandras' infiltrate USR.

I.e. in this case the unit you want to infiltrate (Wraithblades) is deployed (has to be deployed!) before they have infiltrate. "

Kinda hard to understand, but until it gets FAQd I think LoT is right.

so you stated that rangers are "good allrounder unit that sits back and shoots / guards home objective"

sure they can gaurd objectives, put ther fire uotput is nothing. as in nothing. better to have a 5 man rangers squad, minimal to score objectives, as that is there only usefull role. they do aabsoloutly NOTHING agaisnt anything, but can survive decent.

Not pure cheese, just a regular list. with a mix of good units, but definitly not cheese.
You are paying alot for one infiltrating squad.

i like the list, just saying its not cheese.

your crimson hunter wont survive after one turn after it comes in, so might as well forget that "after it kills__" part.

Hawks arnt going to survive after ther drop also, so deifntly no anti tank. Swooping hawks would be better traded for war spiders, better all round unit.

wraithgaurd are "primary" objective grabbers? no.... they should be primary rush/attack/killing squad. wasting 300+points if your using them to sit on an objective.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
so you stated that rangers are "good allrounder unit that sits back and shoots / guards home objective"

sure they can gaurd objectives, put ther fire uotput is nothing. as in nothing. better to have a 5 man rangers squad, minimal to score objectives, as that is there only usefull role. they do aabsoloutly NOTHING agaisnt anything, but can survive decent.

Just for comparison – for a 10 man Defender Guardian squad fielding a Starcannon, you get 9 Rangers. 9 Shots mean 6 will hit, and one of them is statistically bound to end up with AP2. The five other hits would wound half the time, so that’s 2.5 wounds that don’t ignore armor. Add 0.5 wounds with AP2 to the total and now compare that to the Starcannon’s 1.33 hits and 1.11 AP2 wounds. Given terminators’ 5+ invulnerable save, that’s 0.74 dead termies from a Starcannon firing, compared to 0.416 + 0.33 = 0.75 from the 9 man Ranger unit’s fire as well as pinning. In other words: the Rangers can do more damage than the Starcannon can. Now add to this the fact that the Rangers perform better when faced with lighter infantry or monstrous creatures, and you’ll see how they are overall a good jack of all trades compared to the Defender Guardians, who excel only at repelling deepstriking/infiltrating units and specializing in taking out one particular type of unit with their heavy weapon (either termies or light infantry or tanks).

Take the Brightlance, for example. A 9 man Ranger squad shooting at a tank, during rolls for armor penetration, usually end up with a single die that gets an additional D3, so that’s 1 guaranteed glancing hit on AV10, 0.66 glancing hits on AV11 / pen on AV10 or 0.33 glancing hits on AV12 / pen on AV11.

Compare it to the Brightlance and its 0.56 glancing hits on AV10, 0.44 glancing hits on AV11/pen on AV10, 0.33 glancing hits on AV12, 13, 14/pen on AV11 and 0.22 penetrating hits on AV 12, 13 & 14.

As you can see, the Ranger squad performs better against AV 10 and 11, both glance AV 12 equally, but glancing higher armor values and penetrating AV 12 and above is where the Brightlance gets the upper hand. However, note that the Brightlance is only half as effective against termies as a Starcannon; and the Rangers already proved that they are better at taking out termies than the Starcannon is by a hair’s breadth. So really, a unit of rangers outperforms a Starcannon, a Brightlance, and even the Scatterlaser (2.22 wounds vs. the Rangers’ 3 wounds inflicted on light infantry). The Guardian Defenders' only strength lies in their mobility, as well as their short range firepower against infiltrators or deepstrikers. They are inferior to Rangers in every other way, including survivability when in cover (10 bodies profiting from a 4+ cover save aren’t as good as 9 bodies profiting from a 3+ cover save thanks to stealth)

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Hawks arnt going to survive after ther drop also, so deifntly no anti tank. Swooping hawks would be better traded for war spiders, better all round unit.

Dont underestimate the new Swooping Hawks. They can deep strike with pin point precision now, so I can make maximum use of LoS and deploy them where the enemy wont be able to pour fire at them. Plus, with their 13"-24" (move + assault range), I can afford to deploy them a bit away from the tank I want them to assault next turn with their haywires. 8 guys assaulting a tank with 3 Hull Points means its pretty much wrecked...and this wreck can then be used as cover before the hawks move in the next turn.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
wraithgaurd are "primary" objective grabbers? no.... they should be primary rush/attack/killing squad. wasting 300+points if your using them to sit on an objective.

By "primary" objective I mean the objective the enemy is sitting on with the bulk of his forces. His home objective. And D-scythe Wraithguard are perfectly suited to clear that one out. 13"-24" movement of the Wave Serpent on turn 1 (how far I want to move depends on enemy positioning) to gain Flat Out means in the enemy round of shooting my Wave Serpent has a 3+ cover save thanks to Jink + Flat Out + Holofield. I'd like to see him strip 3HPs from an AV12 vehicle with a 3+ cover save in a single turn of shooting that hasnt used its shields and thus can scale down 83.33% of penetrating hits to glances. Then, 6" movement from the Wave Serpent on turn 2 + 6" disembarktion = 5 D-scythe flamers are in range of his most densely packed formations.