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Anyone have a concrete method for Ultramarines obliterating a land raider? Last night i had 3 tact squads run up on a redeemer in order to melta it, plus a MM x 2 Landspeeder, plus 2 Las Preds, plus 2 TL las Razorbacks, PLUS 4 Las Dev squad. Mind you all this punishment was in ONE TURN. I ended up stripping a grand total of 2 hit points which were regened by iron hands. Should I just ignore it? Frankly im not sure if i have bad luck or if im doing it wrong. Im almost tempted to ally in FW with haywire grenades in a devilfish at this point.

Squad of sternguard vets in a drop pod. Several combi-meltas scattered around plus two heavy flamers means that not only can your combat squads eliminate up to two Land Raiders (or other tanks) on deployment, but a wide variety of other threats as well.

8-10 vanguard vets with just meltabombs and jump packs (and nothing else). Assault it, hit on 3's, no cover save for the LR.

2x annihilators

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Anyone have a concrete method for Ultramarines obliterating a land raider? Last night i had 3 tact squads run up on a redeemer in order to melta it, plus a MM x 2 Landspeeder, plus 2 Las Preds, plus 2 TL las Razorbacks, PLUS 4 Las Dev squad. Mind you all this punishment was in ONE TURN. I ended up stripping a grand total of 2 hit points which were regened by iron hands. Should I just ignore it? Frankly im not sure if i have bad luck or if im doing it wrong. Im almost tempted to ally in FW with haywire grenades in a devilfish at this point.

Don't mistake being unlucky with being unreliable. On average 3 Meltaguns does the job.

very unlucky game all those weapons tend to do well against land raiders

Bad luck game.
Try running those same weapons against a Raider again and I'm sure you'll get it down.

 minigun762 wrote:
Bad luck game.
Try running those same weapons against a Raider again and I'm sure you'll get it down.

This makes me feel better, I wasn't even trying for an anti-armor game as much as I was providing plenty of cover fire for my tacts in rhinos and I find Lascannons to be the most reliable ( plus i rarely play horde armies). On an extra note, my librarian also double sixed himself TWICE to death after deep striking with some terminators. On a positive note I discovered that Regular Terminators are not half bad when you consider mobility and shootiness, just as long as you send to them to the back lines and try to avoid massed AP 2

5 man LotD squad. MM, combi-melta, meltagun, should pop it with one round of shooting. If you are taking the tig with his div and such buffing spells shouldn't be too tough.

OB from your CM

 Senortaco wrote:
OB from your CM

Did you miss the word "reliable" in the thread title?

Grav gun centurions with the grav boosters. At first it sounds silly, but shooting three centurions at a land raider is like shooting fifteen S8 shots that reroll armor penetration at it. Not bad at all when you think about it. I've seen them wreck a land raider in a single turn of shooting. Nasty business.

Imperial fist centurions don't need to take the grav boosters to this either, since they have tank hunter anyway.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Anyone have a concrete method for Ultramarines obliterating a land raider? Last night i had 3 tact squads run up on a redeemer in order to melta it, plus a MM x 2 Landspeeder, plus 2 Las Preds, plus 2 TL las Razorbacks, PLUS 4 Las Dev squad. Mind you all this punishment was in ONE TURN. I ended up stripping a grand total of 2 hit points which were regened by iron hands. Should I just ignore it? Frankly im not sure if i have bad luck or if im doing it wrong. Im almost tempted to ally in FW with haywire grenades in a devilfish at this point.

Don't mistake being unlucky with being unreliable. On average 3 Meltaguns does the job.

This. You brought plenty. Make sure you are in melta range and you''ll bring it down.

As a mechvet player I don't think 3 meltaguns are enough. 9 should do the trick though.

xruslanx wrote:
As a mechvet player I don't think 3 meltaguns are enough. 9 should do the trick though.

I agree.

Unless my math is wrong, 3 Melta guns(in melta range) have about a 50% chance of even getting a single pen in one round of shooting(assuming Marine ballistic skill).

Then you still have to roll decent on the chart to destroy it.

If you're Salamanders with Vulkan, or Imperial Fists, then the 3 guns are more reliable.

Fyi grav cannon comes wih the grav amp in anycase. Cant purchase the cannons only. So IF ct doesnt really affect that part.

 Bulldogging wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
As a mechvet player I don't think 3 meltaguns are enough. 9 should do the trick though.

I agree.

Unless my math is wrong, 3 Melta guns(in melta range) have about a 50% chance of even getting a single pen in one round of shooting(assuming Marine ballistic skill).

Then you still have to roll decent on the chart to destroy it.

If you're Salamanders with Vulkan, or Imperial Fists, then the 3 guns are more reliable.

Sadly i also had my doctrine running so they had rerolls, the pen rolls were just terrible all around

Even the worst pen roll on a land raider with a melta is enough to ignore it for a turn. Unless someone bought Extra Armor.

xruslanx wrote:
As a mechvet player I don't think 3 meltaguns are enough. 9 should do the trick though.

9 is overkill. With 3 Meltaguns at BS4, you hit twice, usually pen. twice, and then one of them should get the Explosion. 4 is probably a bit statistically accurate, but 3 is usually good enough. Not sure why you would think it takes 9.

I agree with 3 normally being enough. If you're worried, take a fourth or twin link them.
Even with ten, there is always a chance for failure, it's just a matter of comparing the odds against your investment.

Three is not statistically reliable, since you are most likely to get only one pen. And then need a 4+ to kill. Three melta guns is probably somewhere around 55%-60% off the top of my head, since there is a decent chance to get two pens.

Martel732 wrote:
Three is not statistically reliable, since you are most likely to get only one pen. And then need a 4+ to kill. Three melta guns is probably somewhere around 55%-60% off the top of my head, since there is a decent chance to get two pens.

58%. I did say in my last post that 4 is more statistically reliable, but 3 still pull through more often than not.

This is when I miss my prescienced MM attack bikes from BA. One of the few good things in the codex.

Because there's still the problem that occupants can assault from an exploded assault vehicle. So you can kiss you sternguards bye bye either way.

A little math...

BS4 Meltas
1 = .19 Destroyed Results
2 = .39 Destroyed Results
3 = .58 Destroyed Results
4 = .78 Destroyed Results
5 = .97 Destroyed Results

Vulcan BS4 Meltas
1 = .26 Destroyed Results
2 = .51 Destroyed Results
3 = .77 Destroyed Results
4 = 1.03 Destroyed Results

BS5 Melta ie Ven Dread Drop
1 = .24 Destroyed Results
Vulcan = .28 Destroyed Results

BS4 Lascannon
1 = .04 Destroyed Results

TL BS4 Assault Cannon
1 = .03 Destroyed Results and a paltry .39HP/turn

It also takes 36 BS4 S8 shots, ie Missile, Melta Out of range, etc.

A minimum Imperial Fist Dev Cent (TLLas, Missile) earns .27Destroyed Results per turn and strips 2.2HP/Turn. A minimum Grav Cent Squad averages stripping all 4 HP in one turn once in range.

And just for fun a S10/AP1 Orbital Bombardments averages... .12 Destroyed Results using conservative Scatter penning 1/4 attempts.


Multiple Meltas, Grav Cents, and Imperial Fist Devastator Centurions are the only viable options. Single or Double Melta shots have a chance ie Ven Dreads, Vulcan Ironclads, Assault Bikes, LotD, etc.


Edit: May as well add in some Xenos options too.

Wraithknight Heavy Wriathcannons
.15 Destroyed Results

Hammerhead
.11 Destroyed Results

Nova Charged Ion Riptide
.06 Destroyed Results

Dual Fusion Suits
.29 per suit
.39 per suit with one markerlight
.49 per suit with two markerlights

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Three is not statistically reliable, since you are most likely to get only one pen. And then need a 4+ to kill. Three melta guns is probably somewhere around 55%-60% off the top of my head, since there is a decent chance to get two pens.

58%. I did say in my last post that 4 is more statistically reliable, but 3 still pull through more often than not.

Yup, 58% for 4, only 48% probability of kill for 3. Well, that just determined my sternguard's weapon loadout...

Dessorag wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Three is not statistically reliable, since you are most likely to get only one pen. And then need a 4+ to kill. Three melta guns is probably somewhere around 55%-60% off the top of my head, since there is a decent chance to get two pens.

58%. I did say in my last post that 4 is more statistically reliable, but 3 still pull through more often than not.

Yup, 58% for 4, only 48% probability of kill for 3. Well, that just determined my sternguard's weapon loadout...

No, it's 58% for 3, not 4. 4 is 76%.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


No, it's 58% for 3, not 4. 4 is 76%.

Nope, you're finding the probability of Exploding (19.4%) on one attack and multiplying by 3. That's not how multiple dice work. If that was the case, you'd have a 117% chance of of 6 working, which is mathematically impossible.

You divide your dice space into two areas, Explodes and Not Explodes. Those are P(exp)=19.4% and P(no exp) = 80.6%. Now, the situation you care about is not getting an explosion on 3 separate attacks. Therefore the math is P(no exp)^3 or a 58% chance of failing to get an explode result 3 times in a row. 1-P(no exp)^3 is 48%.

The real math nuts will find the Immob, Immob, Glance+ option as well, which gives you another 1.2% chance (ish) of that happening. Again, 3 meltas doesn't appear to break 50% for killing a landraider. Take 4. If using combis, consider 5.

A little math... To avoid confusion I've included the probability of destruction as well as the average number of destroyed results

BS4 Meltas
1 = .19 Destroyed Results 19% chance of Destruction
2 = .39 Destroyed Results 35% chance of Destruction
3 = .58 Destroyed Results 47% chance of Destruction
4 = .78 Destroyed Results 57% chance of Destruction
5 = .97 Destroyed Results 65% chance of Destruction

Vulcan BS4 Meltas
1 = .26 Destroyed Results 26% chance of Destruction
2 = .51 Destroyed Results 45% chance of Destruction
3 = .77 Destroyed Results 59% chance of Destruction
4 = 1.03 Destroyed Results 70% chance of Destruction

BS5 Melta ie Ven Dread Drop
1 = .24 Destroyed Results
Vulcan = .28 Destroyed Results

BS4 Lascannon
1 = .04 Destroyed Results

TL BS4 Assault Cannon
1 = .03 Destroyed Results and a paltry .39HP/turn

It also takes 36 BS4 S8 shots, ie Missile, Melta Out of range, etc.

A minimum Imperial Fist Dev Cent (TLLas, Missile) earns .27Destroyed Results per turn and strips 2.2HP/Turn. A minimum Grav Cent Squad averages stripping all 4 HP in one turn once in range.

And just for fun a S10/AP1 Orbital Bombardments averages... .12 Destroyed Results using conservative Scatter penning 1/4 attempts.


Multiple Meltas, Grav Cents, and Imperial Fist Devastator Centurions are the only viable options. Single or Double Melta shots have a chance ie Ven Dreads, Vulcan Ironclads, Assault Bikes, LotD, etc.


Edit: May as well add in some Xenos options too.

Wraithknight Heavy Wriathcannons
.15 Destroyed Results

Hammerhead
.11 Destroyed Results

Nova Charged Ion Riptide
.06 Destroyed Results

Dual Fusion Suits
.29 per suit
.39 per suit with one markerlight
.49 per suit with two markerlights