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I've been involved with a local, fairly populous 40k club outside of Boston ever since early 5th edition, and from the start it was clear there were 2 kinds of players:

1) non-competitive, people who are more interested in building a collection of cool models than winning games.

2) Competitive, people who field unpainted, optimal army lists often bought and swapped out when new things become powerful.

I was quite clearly in category 1, due both to monetary restrictions and a love of fielding painted armies. So my lists are good, but generalist. I have a lot of friends in the club, and ended up playing some of the cheesiest lists 5th edition had, and though I would often lose I could hold my own with my orks or necrons.

I've adapted both armies to sixth, added in a guard allied contingent I can use for either. I have fliers, I have aegis lines, I feel as though I've made acceptable concessions to the necessities of sixth. But now I can't make a scratch on a competitive army.

It seems, to me at least, that the game has become more polar. Allies and the new codexes have created numerous army lists that are just massively beyond what my generalists could ever hope to handle. My last game an opponent played 4 teleporting death flamed dreadknights, and also had drop podding blood angel furiosos to boot-getting the unique strengths of both his armies with none of the weaknesses.

Before that, it was elder wraith blob. Impenetrable tau gun line with farsight blob. Necron flying bakery. Lists with so much stacked into a single aspect that I'd have needed to bring all anti-tank, or all anti air, or all anti monstrous creature to deal with them. Has anyone else had this experience? I don't mind losing to the competitive people-after all, they seem to enjoy it enough to spend hundreds of dollars on tiny plastic men they don't even paint or often build, and who am I to begrudge them their enjoyment of the game? But the last few games its seemed silly to have terrain, or objectives, or models on the table. It was just an exercise of unpacking and then packing my list up when the other guys models moved all the way across the table and used weapons and psychic powers that removed my entire army from the board with no saves allowed. Teleporting dreadknights that deleted 30 Ork boys instantly. Fliers that appear anywhere and have the firepower to kill whatever they want. Weapons that can destroy your whole army from across the board. What's the point in there being a board if you can't maneuver anymore? Shouldn't we just compare lists and decide a winner, saves the prep time.

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone's found a way to make it so a "collection" can actually play a multi-turn game against an eBay-bought optimum list? Would putting everyone in transports extend my lifespan? Or should I just stick to playing the other collections, a bummer since some of my best friends in the club are more competitive?

But now I can't make a scratch on a competitive army.

Necron or necron with ally ork lists win big tournaments around the world. orc+necron and nids are one of the hard counters to screamer star right now . How can you you be losing.

Well this is a bit of a tough one to reply to. I am similar, I have never been hugely competitive but I enjoy playing the game (the wackier the list the better!) and building the models. I have probably over 10,000 points of space marines at this point, but I win about 50/50 of the time (less against my usual foe!).

I think there is a lot of collective knowledge here on the board that could provide some recommendations, but we would need to know a bit more about your army and what units you have available to make any suggestions. And at that point even you need to have experience with a list to get the most out of it.

Let us know what you have to work with, and I;m sure a lot of helpful dakka-ites will chime in to give you some ideas!

My available model pool:

Orks:
-Around 40 shoota boyz, 40 choppa/slugga, but I usually proxy all as shootaz if I need more.
-15 lootas
-15 burnas
-10 tankbustas
-10 Stormboyz
-tons of grot models, around 9 big guns I can use as whatever.
-Orky Aegis line
-Dakkajet
-battle wagon
-Looted Wagon
-2 Trukks
-9 copters
-20 Nobs with pretty much every armament
-Every special and generic HQ choice as well as Zagstruk and Snikrot.
-9 Killa Kans
-Deff Dread

Necrons:
-40 Warriors
-10 Immortals
-5 Lords
-5 crypteks
-Ghost Ark
-Tesla Destructor
-Night/Doom Scythe
-10 Deathmarks
-6 Wraiths
-Overlord/Anrakyr/Stormlord
-C'Tan
-Stalker
-Spyder and Scarabs.

Guard:
-Command Squad
-1 Platoon worth of infantry/vets
-Marbo
-Stormtrooper suicide melts squad
-Manticore
-1 Russ
-1 Chimera




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, I usually go with "Hold my objectives with a grot/ big gun line behind an aegis, mechanised charge the rest of the army supported by the Dakkajet and Zagstruk" strategy with orks, and a mass of gauss power with the necrons. I have anti-air, I have mechanized protection, I have fortifications. I use the Deathmarks/cryptek cheese tactic along with mind shackles, Stormlord, night scythe and tesla destructors which I thought was a pretty damn optimum list.

But still, my orks end up demolished in melee by ELDAR of all things (psychic powers that make me not able to attack), my necrons get out shot or just caught in melee, and I have yet to bring down a single flier with my anti-air. I have yet to see a flier die, period.

It just frustrates me to no end that the extent of strategy now seems to be "pick a gimmick and abuse it as your entire list". 5th had tervigons and Draigo, but they could be dealt with at least. I can't deal with dozens of 2+3++ t8 monstrous creature wounds, or 4 psychic powers a turn that make my army incapable of doing anything, or whole armies that get to obliterate anything that arrives by deep strike when deep strike is the only way to get to them.

You need to adapt. Figure out what the most powerful Ork\Necron list is right now, and get the additional models to build it.

OR

Tell your opponents you don't play competitively, and would like to play against a casual list. No repeat units in either list outside troops
helps with this.

I wish I was down in Boston. I would love to go down to your FLGS and teach those young whipper snappers a thing or 2. I think 10 sabres,
6 thudds, 3 artillery cages, and 2x blobs would create a nice attitude adjustment. If you pay my travel expenses I will come down and sheriff
the 40K nights for a week or so.

Unless you were double force org, you can only have 3 dreadknights.
I think that your necrons need some annhiliation barges. Also, a destroyer lord attached to your wraiths helps them out quite a bit. I'm not an expert on orks, but I've played against a fair number of necrons and I hate them. They still have the capacity to be competitive, check out this battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/554706.page

I play GK, I've played them in 4th and 6th (I went to college during 5th, apparently I really missed out). I've been stomped by certain lists, it happens and I know that I can never make a perfect TAC list that can deal with everything. But I win more than I lose, and that's good enough for me. What has helped me the most has been having a plan before I even put my models down.

Here's the thing, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're trying to be competitive by including certain units and failing because you don't understand why/how they work best. It would be like me taking a ghostwing and not shunting my dreadknights until turn 3. In short, your strategy is too general. "Mass Gauss Fire" is not a viable strategy against Tau or IG, you have to have a specific plan for utilizing your units. Things like target priority become very important. And with that, list building becomes key because you have to know how your army's going to work together to win the game.

Finally, realize that a non-competitive player is going to lose to a competitive player 5/6 times. The competitive player's army is designed to be efficient, and wipe out the opponent.

I saw a really awesome tournament winner list with orks and necrons. It was something along the lines of:

1x warboss /w mega armour
1x warboss /w mega armour

10x mega armour nobz
10x mega armour nobz

battlewagon
battlewagon

1x destroyer lord

5x necron warriors in night scythe
5x necron warriors in night scythe

annihilation barge


I don't know the exact wargear and there may have been another troop or 2, but this framework leads to a pretty killer list. Many armies don't have an answer for all those meganobz supported by some good flyers.

I realize your question is about army lists... but I was wondering why you seem to believe that you can't be competitive and still have a collection-type army.

I realize you may have had bad experiences with people, but to me, the opening of your post seems needlessly inflammatory.

(On-topic, if your goal is to have a collection of painted models that you throw together into a list, why do you care what the opponent plays? Lists built without the goal of winning are going to lose the majority of the time, even if they are fun to play.)

You could also try to find a fluffy list that is also strong enough to compete with them.

The gap is smaller for all newer 6th army books (ignoring the stupid daemon FMC spam trick) but larger for the older books, such as:

GK
Nercon
IG

There is a reason these are some of the top placers in tournaments. While recent winners were using the daemon flavor of the month, the incoming FAQ will put a stop to that.

So, just play what you want, how you want and keep some options under your belt. You will do fine.

 forrestfire wrote:
I realize your question is about army lists... but I was wondering why you seem to believe that you can't be competitive and still have a collection-type army.

I realize you may have had bad experiences with people, but to me, the opening of your post seems needlessly inflammatory.

(On-topic, if your goal is to have a collection of painted models that you throw together into a list, why do you care what the opponent plays? Lists built without the goal of winning are going to lose the majority of the time, even if they are fun to play.)

You could also try to find a fluffy list that is also strong enough to compete with them.

I could certainly do that-my necrons, for sure are a competitive enough list, for late 5th when I bought the models. When sixth hit, fliers became godly so I picked one up, but before that it was all about Wraiths, Scarabs, Ghost arks of warriors and the Stormlord, with an honorable mention for the Deathmarks/Morale flamer dealie combo.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a horrible player of this game. I know how to use terrain, calculate my odds, and build a list for success. Mass Gauss fire works wonders against vehicles and most infantry based lists, but I couldn't tell you the last time I saw one of those.

The GK/BA list I faced last was:
Cortez
Some henchmen guards for objectives
Transport razorbacks with chain guns for anti-air, four I think.
Three dreadknights
Two drop podding furiosos.
One drop pod filled with some kind of BA stern guard equivalent.

I played orks and guard, deployed fairly conservatively and planned to fight the knights like I might fight a terminator deathblob, mass fire on one at a time and take it out, while using boyz blobs to tie up the other two. They stole the initiative, drop podded in the dreads and teleported in the knights, and popping my Trukks with their transports destroyed more than half my army turn one. Turn two, I brought in Zagstrukk and the jet, and killed Cortez with Zagstrukk. Their turn they tabled the rest of my army completely.

Cover saves? Ignored by all his weaponry on the dreads and knights. Difficult terrain? All deep striking or teleporting. Intervening impassable terrain? Ditto. Assault? Challenge the power klaw unit, can't be touched by everyone else. AP 2 weapons? 3++ saves, 4 wounds each.

Could I beat them if I'd fielded, I don't know... Three battle wagons full of lootas, or full of meganobs with klaw bosses, as was suggested? Sure. Let me just drop 600 bucks on a meta game that will change with the next codex when guard lasguns become AP 2 on penal legions.

I mentioned before that I had played against every cheese list 5th had to offer. I lost, 9 times out of 10. But I felt like I at least stood a chance. I felt like my opponents were paying for their crazy dreadknights by giving up the major tactical concern of a marine player, the drop pods. I could sneak attack tau. I could bum rush Eldar. I could kite and shoot down melee Death Stars. I'm not sure how they managed to remove all these tactics with each new codex and the new edition, but every time I try one I end up running into some new special rule that invalidates it, and the competitive players know how to take advantage of those.

 juraigamer wrote:
The gap is smaller for all newer 6th army books (ignoring the stupid daemon FMC spam trick)

And everything in the CSM codex that is not Nurgle or a Baledrake.

 juraigamer wrote:
The gap is smaller for all newer 6th army books (ignoring the stupid daemon FMC spam trick) but larger for the older books, such as:

GK
Nercon
IG

There is a reason these are some of the top placers in tournaments. While recent winners were using the daemon flavor of the month, the incoming FAQ will put a stop to that.

So, just play what you want, how you want and keep some options under your belt. You will do fine.

A ben franklin says GW won't FAQ it. I believe it is working exactly as the designers intended it.

the_scotsman wrote:

Cover saves? Ignored by all his weaponry on the dreads and knights. Difficult terrain? All deep striking or teleporting. Intervening impassable terrain? Ditto. Assault? Challenge the power klaw unit, can't be touched by everyone else. AP 2 weapons? 3++ saves, 4 wounds each.

I have found this edition to be much better balanced (the new dexs) than the previous editions.

I think you need to read some of the dexs these people are beating you with. This being a perfect example as the dreadknight has a 5++ not a 3++. You have repeatedly mentions rules and situations that are not possible in your comments here. This leads me to believe either you are making huge overstatements or are being cheated.

You might want to try a variant of the necron+ork list posted above or a ork gunline (max lootas and big gunz behind aegis, with bikers as troops to stay in reserves and capture objectives in the end game or act as tarpits in KP/relic) which can be pretty nasty if done right.

If you don't like flyers very much then construct an Orky firestorm redoubt. That thing is murder on flyers and will either stop flyer domination or cause spamming of them...

Play better. I would strongly suggest improving your skills and knowledge of the game.

Either you are exaggerating to make a point, or you don't know enough about the game to know that there aren't any T8 2+/3++ MCs. The closest is a Riptide that risks a wound to be T6 2+/3++ with a Nova Charged shield(foolish in many circumstances), or a Wraightknight T8 3+. Dreadknights only have a 2+/5++. Read the other codices and familiarize yourself with their units, that alone will go along way to improving your play.

You then go on to list 5th edition codexes, one of which is IMO the weakest out currently, BA. Dreadknight could teleport and HI in 5th, I know I did. if those 705+pts of Dreadknights killed a 200pt mod in one turn, I'm impressed, it'd be nearly impossible unless you didn't displace your models at all, in that case shame on you because you didn't plan for the possibility of his alpha strike army stealing the initiative THAT INCLUDED a model that improves his odds of stealing it. He was running an ignore cover Alpha Strike Army, no wonder when he STOLE THE INITIATIVE it worked. Good for him, his strategy and list nailed it. You obviously misplayed that game, underestimated portions of his army, and failed to deploy correctly.

This is pretty much a whine thread. Adapt and play better or be happy being the guy who fields non synergistic lists for fun and complains about the cheese. You are pretty much complaining about how your competetive 5th edition necron army you bought just doesn't do it in 6th. You can't take an army of random crap and hope to play competitive 40k. Welcome to 6th edition, it'll be around for a while, may as well adapt. Seriously, Telsa rocks and a pair of warriors/night scythes led by a Destroyer Lord and Wraiths allied in will add a hell of a new component to any army you are fielding. Necron are a top tier competitive army and warriors in a Night Scyth are the best scoring unit in the game. Looking at what you have, I don't think its out of the realm of possibility to play a stronger list and adapt to the meta and your opponents.