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Everyone tells me that the tau are terrible at close combat. Is that true? Are they really that bad? What some people have told me about tau at cc seems unrealistic. Is it all true? Thanks!

I can't tell if this is a joke post or not, but assuming it isn't, then yes, its true. All their troops die horribly in cc. Their elites don't die as fast, but they can't inflict any damage in cc, so they're either dead or tarpitted.

It's not a joke. They're really that bad? Jeez!!

Our basic troops (and most of our army) have the lowest WS and initiative of anything in the game. Without an Ethereal, our infantry also have low leadership so we're easy to run down.
On the flip side, a Riptide is still a monstrous creature (ignores armor, can get strength 10 attacks). Our crisis suits have 2 attacks base at strength 5. Most importantly, very few cc armies will ever make it across the table...

Yeah, tau suck pretty hard in CC. Low WS means trouble just striking back, and low I codexwide means hitting last. Even if you do some damage, your are liable to fail morale from wounds and get swept. The best defense tau have from CC is overwatch with decently strong firearms hoping to deny the charge and shoot an opponent dead.

Suits(of all varieties) have a slightly better chance due to the suit buffs, and a commander kitted out to defend against an assault will ward off casual encounters. But really tau work on shooting an enemy dead and not assault.

When they overwatch do they rely on number of shots or quality?

The low WS isn't that big a hindrance - against probably 90% of units out there they hit on a 4+. It's only against dedicated CC units they won't.

Not an expert but I'd like to lay in some of my own support. They kinda rely on both to an extent I suppose you could say. Their troops cost about 9 points per model meaning that whilst they aren't the cheapest (you can get 2 IG for this price) meaning you have more boots than a marine squad. Along with that, they have a ability that allows any Tau unit within 6" or so to be able to join in the overwatch. Now this seems like it is only quantity rather than quality. Yet there are two things to note. Their basic guns are S5 meaning that they will usually be causing wounds (saves being a different story. AP5 still means breaking many nid, IG, and ork AS). Along with that, you can support fire marker lights. What this means is that, if you can roll a few 6 in overwatch with marker lights, you can buff the level of overwatch to be a bs of 3 rather than 1.

So... I suppose you could say they rely on a combination of quality and quantity.

Also, the reason they are claimed to get ripped apart in CC is that, once there, they lose their ability to shoot guns. Tau being tied up means they aren't shooting their gun at other targets and are giving a turn of relative safety for the enemy that will likely break the tau soon enough. They have a WS of 2 meaning that most everything WILL be hitting on a 3+ for the enemy and a 4+ or 5+ for you. That doesn't even factor in the fact that if a unit is assaulting you, they likely have at least a few power weapon equivelents that tend to rarely have a ws worse than ap4. This means that you won't be getting your 4+ save. Conversely, the enemy will almost always get their save against you. Then you must factor in the fact that, unless you have an Etherial, your leadership is generally low and a single lost unit more than the enemy (which is very likely) and watch as you get swept (as you have such a low initiative). In other words, yes, yes Tau aren't good in CC. There are exceptions of course. There's one or two hqs that seem to have a leaning for at least a bit of cc in their diet and the battlesuits (and riptides) are capable of doing some damage in cc. These units shouldn't do this unless they assuredly know that they can win. If they get stuck in cc it means that your allies can't shoot the enemy and you are losing that squad's effeciency. This is my completely foolish observations of Tau from the little I know.

Although we may be rather horrible in close combat due to poor WS, Initiative and basically no Power Weapons; people forget that Tau can cause just as much damage or even more in some cases, in the Assault Phase as any other army, because we can overwatch with multiple units, can if we choose to buy the upgrade on our suits to overwatch at BS 2 and with the help of markerlights the next squad to fire overwatch could potentially have its BS improved.
That being said though, that isn't actual combat.
O'Shova attacks with 4 AP 2 Armourbane attacks at Initiative 5 and WS5, that's nothing to shake a stick at.
The Riptide, as mentioned is a Monstrous Creature and with a 2+ Save and potentially a 3++ with T 6 and FNP ( more often then not) that can do a fair job in close combat, only downside is it can be caught in a sweeping advances and is unlikely to sweep anyone other than Tau lol.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
with the help of markerlights the next squad to fire overwatch could potentially have its BS improved.

Are there no 'shooting phase only' restrictions on markerlights? I thought they were not usable in overwatch.

No provided they meet the requirements to overwatch, they can buff other units' overwatch.

SBG wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
with the help of markerlights the next squad to fire overwatch could potentially have its BS improved.

Are there no 'shooting phase only' restrictions on markerlights? I thought they were not usable in overwatch.

The rule says it can be used in both, provided that the markerlights hit during Overwatch.

Lucarikx

No one has ever made it across the table to know for sure =P All kidding aside they are pretty horrible, but it tau, thats what you would expect. If they could shoot that good and have some cc there would be no chance to beat them.

I once managed to wipe out 3 Tau units with a single Wraith. It was hilarious. Granted I had crazy luck with my invulnerable save... But yeah it's true, Tau cannot withstand any kind of close combat.

in 5th, my trukk had dumped ghazzy and his nobz in charge range of the tau line, and it was a slaughter..

But now in 6th, i played against tau and he was moving, shooting, and in cc-phase he jumped away. The suits could do this he said, and he had enough squads to really hurt me.
He played alot better than the guy in 5th (just sat in a corner of the table with his whole army) so my lootas didn't get a lot of shots at them as he jumped in and out cover, and my nob bikerz slaughtered some stupid units but the suits kept on jumping around and shooting everything up..

Big lose against tau in 6th

In almost all circumstanced getting into CC with Tau is a bad proposition. That being said, crisis suits and Riptides do ok versus naked tactical marines and I have initiated CC on some occasions. But, its almost always better to sit an make the enemy eat an overwatch, potentially one where he can fail his charge.

Though, my FE army does have Farsight, a Commander with Iriium, Stim, Shiel, and Onager Guantlet, and a couple of Riptides an can hold its own when necessary against non dedicated CC units.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/581/575/2c7.png

This does a pretty good job of summing it up.

How bad is ws2?

Against ws5+ it's an elite cc unit & tau are dogmeat anyways. The battle has already gone horribly wrong so hitting on a 5+ just means you're girly flailing is slightly less meaningless before death.

The it's not big deal because I still hit on a 4+ mentality correct when meq/eldar/de are involved. I3 and ws3 would still math hammer the same. Against IG, nids, and other ws3 opponent it is dead wrong. It's not about tau hitting in cc, it's about guardsmen and gaunts hitting tau on a 3+

 frankofranko wrote:
It's not a joke. They're really that bad? Jeez!!

I wouldn't worry about it. Tau shooting is so good it is a chore trying to get into CC with them in the first place. Its a big weakness but its one that doesn't get exploited as much as any other army. A lot of things are usually dead before they can reach them.

On the otherhand, The Riptide and Farsight himself, do provide a bit of a punch in close combat. Although the Riptide is a great shooter, he is also a monsterous creature, so he is S6, T6 and AP2, although is only WS2 and Farsight has an AP2 sword and strikes at I5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SBG wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
with the help of markerlights the next squad to fire overwatch could potentially have its BS improved.

Are there no 'shooting phase only' restrictions on markerlights? I thought they were not usable in overwatch.

It distinctly says in the markerlight entry that they could be used to increase the BS for snap shots and overwatch.

I play guard; if FW ever end up in melee against a standard Infantry Squad, I'm actually confident that I'll end up winning the combat.

put it this way 6 of my pink horrors beat a riptide in combat. yep they are that bad

The other drawback to tau cc is they have 0 melee toys outside Farsight. All of their attacks (except the Riptide since hes an MC) have no AP and can never get any AP.

Aside from that, theyre also I2. Orks survive with that low of an initiative because of sheer numbers and T4/T5. Firewarriors only have a 4+ which is just a 50% chance to avoid damage and pretty much every melee weapon is at least AP4 if it has one at all. Most of the firewarriors would be dead before they even got to attack. S3 isnt that big of a deal unless its a big unit (T5+) but when you only have 3-5 attacks after your opponent crushed half your forces first....they wont do anything lol

the short answer is yes. Tau are not suited for close quarters combat and their rules reflect this.

I've played the game since the Tau were introduced and I can say with certainty that they have never been any better at it than they are now. Overwatch is (IMO) a massive oversight on the part of GW. It's a bandaid for the fact that they don't really know how to fix the terribly broken mechanics of close combat in 40k. You can see that all over the 6E ruleset... The radical reduction in the overall effectiveness of CC weapons (power weapons being given AP values, nearly all AP2 weapons being unweildy, etc) is just a further attempt to dissuade palyers from sinking points into those model types. As well, most of the new armies are heavily dependant on ranged tactica. The SM codex received a completely new type of ranged weapon...

Anyway, before this turns into my tyrate on why GW doesn't like close combat I'll get back to yuor question about the Tau:

Don't get them in close combat. Just don't. I understand that Tau players are often new players since the Tau are an attempt to reach a new demographic, but don't limit yourself to being the "new guy". Read some of the rules for armies you don't play. Get to know how other people will play the game and it will really reinforce your understanding of how to better play the Tau.

As it concerns Overwatch... remember that you can only "share" overwatch once in a turn, and once you've fired overwatch you cannot fire it again so while that may help you survive a single, isolated assualt, it can do more harm than good if you are not judicious with which assault you sink the overwatch into.

But, talk is cheap and I'm sure you'll hear all manner of conflicting information from people on the internet so my best advice to you is just look at the rules, and run through a few practice sets of your own. Use some coins or other similar tokens to represent a squad of marines or Orks, or Elar... have them charge a squad of Fire Warriors, and watch how it plays out... you'll know for yourself why you need to keep the Tau way the hell away from CC.

Think of it as a bunch of drunken sailors using leather sacks full of baby seals to club other baby seals to death, except hat the seals are weird fish people and not cute in any way

Tau cant fight out of a paper bag lbut there are allies who can. A lot of the current meta really doesn't require the allies fortunately.

Also getting into CC can be an issue - my DE have simply never ever made it through the supporting fire overwatch madness.

Seriously, wychs suck against firewarriors... but I digress.

Tau don't need to be good in CC - they are more efficient at shooting by not having CC options. Any non-riptide Tau unit in CC should be written off as a loss, barring some rare situations.

They're pretty bad, but between several rounds of shooting, overwatch, supporting fire, and always having to take that initiative one penalty for going through cover if you don't have assault grenades it's very unlikely that you'll ever see an assault phase against anything the Tau player wasn't using as a sacrifice to keep you from touching things he liked.

What are people talking about? Since new Tau came out I have never seen a Tau unit lose a close combat.

I've never seen them win one either, so they're not GOOD in close combat, but with a flawless loss streak, you can't say that CC is a serious weakness to a Tau army.

Also keep in mind that while Fire Warriors are bad in close combat, they *can* still get kills and even win combats if there is a big swing in luck, or if you're careless and assault with too few units. Hell, Necron Wraiths were getting beaten up by Pathfinders in jy2's latest battle report

Vs stock troops of other armies Suits, Riptides, and some Commanders aren't terrible. But, as soon as its a dedicated CC unit you are in trouble.

Though I did have a Riptide with my Buff Commander tie up a tooled out LOC after killing his ugly Warlord twin brother for like 4 rounds of combat. And I forgot to give him Stubborn. Just tanked with his 5++ and FNP and dealt a wound to myself despite the ECPA trying to get his 3++ up. Then once the Riptide died the commander made all his shield saves to survive another round before being smashed.

That being said I've had my Riptide swept by naked tactical marines.


Tau excel at avoiding combat by killing them first.

 Talore wrote:
Also keep in mind that while Fire Warriors are bad in close combat, they *can* still get kills and even win combats if there is a big swing in luck, or if you're careless and assault with too few units. Hell, Necron Wraiths were getting beaten up by Pathfinders in jy2's latest battle report

Photon grenades are good as well. Remember that the enemy losses it attack for charging. So no bonus attack in the first round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:
Vs stock troops of other armies Suits, Riptides, and some Commanders aren't terrible. But, as soon as its a dedicated CC unit you are in trouble.

Though I did have a Riptide with my Buff Commander tie up a tooled out LOC after killing his ugly Warlord twin brother for like 4 rounds of combat. And I forgot to give him Stubborn. Just tanked with his 5++ and FNP and dealt a wound to myself despite the ECPA trying to get his 3++ up. Then once the Riptide died the commander made all his shield saves to survive another round before being smashed.

That being said I've had my Riptide swept by naked tactical marines.


Tau excel at avoiding combat by killing them first.

^ This.

This is pretty much the way to look at it. Against some basic troops you might get lucky, but for the most part if you are up against a unit thats been tooled up for CC, then you're going to lose it and most likely badly.