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So picked me up a swarmlord and a battleforce.

So I have no idea yet if i want a swarmy army or meganids. honest a nice inbetween seems cool.

I have a hard time figuring out what i am going to use in the army to crack open AV14... let alone armour in general.

lots of people seem to say dont take Carnifex with cannons, but that 48" str 10 AP 4 assault 2 cannon seems really good for cracking AV14.

Tervigons seem awesome, but if i am going that way i will want atleast 2-3 of them... and if i do that i need more Termagants.. which will burn a serious hole in my wallet.. lol so what are your guys thoughts?

(my background right now is a 5k pts necron and 10k pts wolves armies)

S10 AP4 is not a reliable way to deal with AV14. You still need a 5+ to pen and a straight 6 to blow it up. I'd say skip the carnifex and ignore the Land Raiders. It's the juicy contents inside that you want to kill and you have plenty of tools for dealing with them after they disembark. If you really need to pop AV14 do it in close combat with your MCs. S10 AP2 smash attacks is how you do it.

Tervigons are great, just open your wallet, you know you want to.

I'm not a Tyranid player so take this with appropriate amount of salt.

The tyranid book is scheduled to be the next 40K codex, as far as current rumors go. That being said, there are some kits that will almost certainly be good going forward:

Tervigons - they're a troop MC that can make more Troops! I run 2 these days - 3 is just overkill (but still an option if you choose)
Termagants - these little buggers are worth their plastic. Nothing says 'meat shield' like swarms of T3 models created for free by a T6 monstrous creature. In the off-chance they happen to kill a terminator or two, or poison a greater daemon to death, the balance is further shifted in tyranids' favor. get some.

Hive guard - while not as necessary in 6th thanks to the hull point system and vehicles being easier to hit in CC, they're still good anti-tank. a brood of 3 should serve a fine purpose (and they might be our skyfire in the next book).

Zoanthrope/Doom of Malan'tai - Zoeys make good support psykers with telepathy, and the doom with cataclysm can potentially discharge a s10 ap1 large blast....anti-tank much?

Mycetic spores - to go with the aforementioned doom. Unfortunately no 1st party kit here,....try megabloks plasma hatchers or dragon universe toys. Their eggs are good sized.


Basically once you have your tyrant, your tervigon, and about 20-40 termagants you've got a good base to start any nid army. Look through the codex, play some games, and build what you think looks cool. Some units like pyrovores, lictors, carnifexes don't work as good as they should but i'm banking that the entire book will be good enough to have a fun game when it gets updated. Just look at how they've done all the other 6th ed books so far - things are looking up for tyranids.

I've played Tyranids a long time, in competitive environments and in friendly games. I'll give you my thoughts on some key units you'll need for success.

Flyrants: This is one of those good dollar to point ratio units. Go double devourers on this one. If you don't want to take this guy but want anti-air, take the firestorm redoubt. Always go biomancy on Flyrants.

Gargoyles: Take these guys in units of 25, plus or minus. I try to go 30 in every list I take. Always take adrenal glands and toxin sacs. These guys are deceptively powerful and can EASILY put down a Wraithknight in a single turn of combat. They combo really well with Tervigons and Zoanthropes. Zoanthropes try to get telekine dome for a 5++ save and the Tervigons try to get endurance to put on them. What you end up with is a 5++, 5+ cover (if placed well) and a 5+ FNP which means rerollable 5+ saves against most ranged attacks. They are also good anti-tank as they can glance AV10 to death.

Tervigons: You should just get one... they're one of the best troop choices in the game. One to start out with means you'll have to buy less gaunts up front. 2 Tervigons as troops is the sweet spot.

Zoanthropes: I mentioned them before but, if you put them in a pod, they can be a deadly psychic shriek unit. Food for thought.

Hive Guard: Not nearly as mandatory as they were in 5th, 6 str 8 ap 4 shots from a T6 unit with 6 wounds is pretty good for Tyranids. Ignoring cover means they're probably your best bet vs wave serpents.

Let me know if that helps!

Man now im starting to regret building the swarmlord and not a Flyrant... lol he just looks awesome! and that invul seems nasty.

so looks like my next buy will be a Tervigon and a Zoanthrope, with a hive gaurd for the swarmlord, or maybe 2 tervigons x_x haha

are Biovores effective? they seem cool on paper, and i keep hearing mixed feelings on warriors.

Yeah, with the new Nid book supposedly on the horizon things are a little up in the air but we still have 2 classics that I tend to use as my go to for AV14 smashing.

1. MC's. The new Smash attacks are just the trick, S10 rerolling pen and ap2 will crush most vehicles and of course some of them may not even be AV14 on the back...
2. Zoanthropes. The standard Warp Lance shots will tear up high AV vehicles no problem, with the added bonus that if you don't need the AV busting you can always use them as a psi buffing unit and roll on the biomancy table.

Nids fight best within 18" of the enemy so either one works. The Rupture cannon on the Tyrannofex is okay and has good range but I prefer them in the role of horde killer with cluster/acid spray the few times I take one.

Biovores are incredibly solid, useful choices. They're cheap enough to fit into just about any list with an open heavy support slot, and using barrage-sniping to take out any special characters, or banner-bearers/weapon holders etc is priceless. The pinning check is icing on the cake, and the best part is if they miss their shot, you still get to place spore mines that'll drift around and potentially cause a ruckus.

 Dunklezahn wrote:


1. MC's. The new Smash attacks are just the trick, S10 rerolling pen and ap2 will crush most vehicles and of course some of them may not even be AV14 on the back...
.

what MCs do you use that get S10 smashing? im kinda new to the MC side of life (only playing wolves and necrons)

stormoffires wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:


1. MC's. The new Smash attacks are just the trick, S10 rerolling pen and ap2 will crush most vehicles and of course some of them may not even be AV14 on the back...
.

what MCs do you use that get S10 smashing? im kinda new to the MC side of life (only playing wolves and necrons)

ALL Monstrous Creatures have the "Smash" rule, which means your tervigons, hive tyrants, swarmlord, trygons, etc etc can all 1/2 their attack stat to become s10 in CC. it's also handy vs enemy characters without the eternal warrior rule, you can smoosh them flat with a single wound.

Don't forget to add-in your bonus +1 attack when charging and +D3 attacks for warp speed when smashing -those apply AFTER the 1/2 modifier.

Ok cool, got the rule book out now then trying to read up.

so Flying Monstrous creatures... we got a few fliers in our meta here and those gunships are pesky. so does a Flyrant have skyfire when flying?

stormoffires wrote:
Ok cool, got the rule book out now then trying to read up.

so Flying Monstrous creatures... we got a few fliers in our meta here and those gunships are pesky. so does a Flyrant have skyfire when flying?

According to the GW Rulebook FAQ he does. It's an errata rather than FAQ but let's not pick nits here.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3440036a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.5_September_13.pdf

edit: Page 6 of the faq, left column:

Q: Flyers are entitled to choose whether or not to use the Skyfire
special rule at the start of each Shooting phase. Can Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures also do this? (p49)
A: Yes.

woah new FAQ for rule book didnt even know that haha thanks mate for that one!

Good suggestions here... especially the Flyrant, Gargoyles, Tervigons and Termagants, in our book. More recently we've moved to a much faster army, which has worked well against Tau and others as you close with them much quicker

We've dropped Hive Guard in favour of podded Carnifxes, TLD, which we drop behind rear armour, hopefully the same turn as our Doom of Malan'tai leeches soul and our ymgarls emerge from cover.

They can do a lot of damage against rear armour and help you deploy more aggressively than Hive Guard . (please check out our pix!)

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Good suggestions here... especially the Flyrant, Gargoyles, Tervigons and Termagants, in our book. More recently we've moved to a much faster army, which has worked well against Tau and others as you close with them much quicker

We've dropped Hive Guard in favour of podded Carnifxes, TLD, which we drop behind rear armour, hopefully the same turn as our Doom of Malan'tai leeches soul and our ymgarls emerge from cover.

They can do a lot of damage against rear armour and help you deploy more aggressively than Hive Guard . (please check out our pix!)

lots of what i have read says to stay away from Doom hes overpriced and doesnt really make it for the army (1500-2k games)

How do you kit out your carnifixes for poding in? im gonna have to make me some pods!

Agree totally with Oblivion, Pod Fexes paired with Ymgarls are awesome and with the new rules a single Hive Commander means 2+ to arrive on turn 2 for reserves. Trygons/Mawlocs are an alternative to the Fexs but I just love those big lugs.

Add in Gargoyles, Flyrants and Raveners and you have a force that closes in fast and can put a lot of pressure on your opponent very early. Or you can use the slower "classic" horde of Gaunts and Tervigons

Ymgarls are one of my favourite units in any book, hoping they don't get a charge from reserve nerf in the new dex, plowing out of the trees at T5 so soak up overwatch and striking last if they assault through cover they can suddenly be all over vital units and silence them just when your enemy needs them most.

stormoffires wrote:
Man now im starting to regret building the swarmlord and not a Flyrant... lol he just looks awesome! and that invul seems nasty.

so looks like my next buy will be a Tervigon and a Zoanthrope, with a hive gaurd for the swarmlord, or maybe 2 tervigons x_x haha

are Biovores effective? they seem cool on paper, and i keep hearing mixed feelings on warriors.

I really like the Swarmlord actually. He's just a little more skill intensive. The key is what psychic tree you use. Of you take a single guard, always biomancy. Iron arm gives you majority toughness 7+. If you take the full squad of guards you want telepathy for invisibilty for a high cover save. I'm going to go ahead and say nothing can beat the swarmlord in close combat.

Biovores are okay, I just never seem to get many hits with them. They single handidly counter fire warrior ADLs though. I try to put two inside my firestorm redoubt.

Warriors haven't performes very well for me. I haven't tried 9 with deathspitters in a pod though. I used to love shrikes in 5tha but it's been a while since i used them.

Post up what you have or want and we can give you pointers for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stormoffires wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Good suggestions here... especially the Flyrant, Gargoyles, Tervigons and Termagants, in our book. More recently we've moved to a much faster army, which has worked well against Tau and others as you close with them much quicker

We've dropped Hive Guard in favour of podded Carnifxes, TLD, which we drop behind rear armour, hopefully the same turn as our Doom of Malan'tai leeches soul and our ymgarls emerge from cover.

They can do a lot of damage against rear armour and help you deploy more aggressively than Hive Guard . (please check out our pix!)

lots of what i have read says to stay away from Doom hes overpriced and doesnt really make it for the army (1500-2k games)

How do you kit out your carnifixes for poding in? im gonna have to make me some pods!

The doom is the single most broken unit in the book and i always bring him for tournaments but never for friendly play. 90 points is a steal. Always swap for psychoc shriek.

Doom of Malan'Tai is great. I don't know why someone would say otherwise. For 130 points, you've got a single model, that on it's own, can smash 3, 4, and sometimes 5 units to bits! After that, he is a bullet sponge. Opponents that ignore him will discover their mistake quickly, and opponents that try to take him out are typically surprised at the amount of firepower it takes to remove a 10W 3++ model. Yes S8 weaponry IDs him. So what? That's less S8 weaponry targetting your more valuable Tervigons, Flyrants, and other baddies.

To help provide insight to the OP questions:

Swarmlord is a great addition to any Hive fleet. Don't discount his value. He simply becomes MORE valuable when you attach a guard and a Tyranid Prime.

Tervigons are, if not THE BEST troop unit in the game, they are top 3. 2 is typically a standard list build due to the amount of spawned gants you can generate. However, the Tervigon's greatest utility is in it's ability to dole out FnP to other units. Most Tyranid units aren't scary by themself, but with FnP they become infinitely more difficult to deal with.

With the above mentioned, I will submit my preference for including a unit of 2 Zoanthrope into my lists. Again, because of their access to biomancy they have INCREDIBLE utility. Enfeeble is a HUGE force multiplier. Endurance adds resilience to even your weakest units. Iron arm even once helped my Zoanthrope tank a Venerable dreadnought by himself!

Termagants are the bread and butter of Tyranids. If you leave home without them, you're probably going to lose the game.

Flyrants are Tyranids only reliable AA option, and even then they are lack luster at best.

One thing you'll notice when you take a birds eye view of the Tyranid codex is: There's an overwhelming majority of anti-infantry weaponry, very little anti-tank (outside of melee). The important thing to remember is this: Do what you're good at. If you can remove infantry in droves, do it. Deal with the other stuff later.

Last point: Tyranids are not an easy race to play. In fact, they are one of the most difficult armies to play as of right now. Synergy is key. No Tyranid unit should ever go in solo against another opponent. Doubling up is a better way to win combat, unless of course you're going to be assaulting Fire warriors in which case you should still assault with a unit of gants to soak up overwatch and supporting fire, but I digress.

Good luck with Nids and welcome to the Devouerer of worlds If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask!

stormoffires wrote:

lots of what i have read says to stay away from Doom hes overpriced and doesnt really make it for the army (1500-2k games)

How do you kit out your carnifixes for poding in? !

As mentioned, whoever said that is just plain wrong! We just took down an Edwar Wraithknight with a doom and some ymgarl . The doom is one of the best units for the points in the 'Nid dex.

THe best (and only, at the moment) way to run Carnifexes is two twin-linked devourers. They are expensive but we've had great results with them.

stormoffires 557688 6147109 nul wrote:
im gonna have to make me some pods!

Please check out our thread which includes cheap DIY pods(well, cheap if you buy your greenstuff from ebay and not GW) . It's lonely on our P&M thread, please leave a comment even if it's just some rude words!

.

thanks guys for all your help, this has been really enlightning and i cant wait to get these bad boys on the table to feast!

Ok couple of questions now. Got a tervigon but how should I kit him? also grabbed some gargoyles, just got 10 but thinking I might need more?

Lastly what do yall use for DoM ?

i am gonna hold off on a carnifex for now in favor of more termigants and maybe another tervigon. in the near future.

Always give Tervigons Toxin Sacs and Catalyst, ALWAYS. Onslaught, Adrenal Glands and Crushing Claws are also viable upgrades, it really depends on what role you want the Tervigon to fill.
10 Gargoyles give up First Blood way too easily, I'd definitely recommend getting another 10 when you can.
This is what I use for the Doom of Malaysia. When it comes to fielding DoM a Mycetic Spore is practically mandatory, also, remember that its job is not to kill entire squads, it can kill entire squads and it's nice on the occasions it does, but the Doom's job is actually as a distraction, every Krak Missile fired at it isn't being fired at your much more important Tervigons.

stormoffires wrote:
thanks guys for all your help, this has been really enlightning and i cant wait to get these bad boys on the table to feast!

Ok couple of questions now. Got a tervigon but how should I kit him? also grabbed some gargoyles, just got 10 but thinking I might need more?

Lastly what do yall use for DoM ?

i am gonna hold off on a carnifex for now in favor of more termigants and maybe another tervigon. in the near future.

Yeah, makes sense. Carnifexes are expensive, you need to sort out tervigons, etc first.

WE use 19 gargoyles... learned to up the number, exactly to avoid first blood and be more aggressive, have slightly fewer tarmagants, as you spawn more tarmaganst, obviously.

Personal choice, obviously, I wouldn't buy an expensive 3rd party Doom when it's possible there might be a new version next year. You can use a standard Zoanthrope, no one will complain, we added the spikes from a trygon and extra vents, but I think even if it just had a unique colour scheme you'd be fine, then if a new model comes, you can revert to using it as a regular zoanthrope.

stormoffires wrote:
thanks guys for all your help, this has been really enlightning and i cant wait to get these bad boys on the table to feast!

Ok couple of questions now. Got a tervigon but how should I kit him? also grabbed some gargoyles, just got 10 but thinking I might need more?

Lastly what do yall use for DoM ?

i am gonna hold off on a carnifex for now in favor of more termigants and maybe another tervigon. in the near future.

Tervigon, i'd keep it plain and simple mostly. Crushing Claws are nice, but they are expensive. I'm 50/50 on Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, i'm not sure what more experienced Nid players do, last few games i've taken both on both my Tervigons, but they've only been useful in a small number of situations. A couple of those situations they were very very helpful, and what else are you going to do with 20-40 points? Gets you 5 more upgraded Gargoyles is about the most useful substitution I can think off. But while writing this I think i've actually made my mind up, definitely go with the TS and AG unless you're really short on points.

Definitely more than 10 Gargoyles. They should be upfront to get to the enemy quickly and act as the first meat shield, 10 is just asking for first blood. Anywhere between 15-20 is good. Always with TS & AG with them.

Fexes are nice, but models expensive cost and points wise. Dakka Fexes are hit and miss. I use two, and normally one of them will do something noteworthy, and the other will die. Rarely have I had both cause havoc, so i'm thinking two is necessary to make sure one does anything at all. They are only 4 wounds, and 12 TL S6 shots is nasty.

Get a Swarmlord with a Guard or two.

rodgers37 wrote: Tervigon, i'd keep it plain and simple mostly. Crushing Claws are nice, but they are expensive. I'm 50/50 on Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, i'm not sure what more experienced Nid players do, last few games i've taken both on both my Tervigons, but they've only been useful in a small number of situations. A couple of those situations they were very very helpful, and what else are you going to do with 20-40 points? Gets you 5 more upgraded Gargoyles is about the most useful substitution I can think off. But while writing this I think i've actually made my mind up, definitely go with the TS and AG unless you're really short on points.

Definitely more than 10 Gargoyles. They should be upfront to get to the enemy quickly and act as the first meat shield, 10 is just asking for first blood. Anywhere between 15-20 is good. Always with TS & AG with them.

Fexes are nice, but models expensive cost and points wise. Dakka Fexes are hit and miss. I use two, and normally one of them will do something noteworthy, and the other will die. Rarely have I had both cause havoc, so i'm thinking two is necessary to make sure one does anything at all. They are only 4 wounds, and 12 TL S6 shots is nasty.

Get a Swarmlord with a Guard or two.

cool thanks mate, i got a swarmlord already but need to find some gaurd probably gonna have to order since our shop is small.

The other options, do some minor conversions to Warriors. Or just Warriors. Its what I do.
Most people don't mind, although you may find issue at tournaments I guess. If you have some spare warriors (if not, they are almost certainly cheaper on eBay than buying Tyrant Guard) its a much easier stop gap as hopefully some nicer plastic Tyrant Guard will be out in January.

With the Swarmlord, just make sure the Guard are positioned in front of him, and make sure you're getting a cover save. Clever opponents will take out the meat shield first anyways because the Swamlord is fairly slow.

I mean I love swarmy, don't get my wrong but I never play him unless I'm playing some wonky game with friends. Anyone that takes him head on is new or doesn't know the nids. People just avoid him, which is easy to do, or shoot him off the table. I play in a fairly updated meta so there is no lack of firepower. He costs 340 points with one guard and lives 1 maybe 2 turns at best.

I plan to sit on my models until the next dex comes out. ( by sit I mean just play what I have) if half of the rumors change things like the flyrant role will change vastly.

I run the standard dbl flyrant, doom and double terv troop set up. Beyond that's "what's your flavor" I like to run a HG unit and a couple of zoans in a spore.

I go back and forth on biovore vs trygon. The second I start liking one over the other they get beat up in 5 straight games then i change over.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

stormoffires wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:


1. MC's. The new Smash attacks are just the trick, S10 rerolling pen and ap2 will crush most vehicles and of course some of them may not even be AV14 on the back...
.

what MCs do you use that get S10 smashing? im kinda new to the MC side of life (only playing wolves and necrons)

ALL Monstrous Creatures have the "Smash" rule, which means your tervigons, hive tyrants, swarmlord, trygons, etc etc can all 1/2 their attack stat to become s10 in CC. it's also handy vs enemy characters without the eternal warrior rule, you can smoosh them flat with a single wound.

Don't forget to add-in your bonus +1 attack when charging and +D3 attacks for warp speed when smashing -those apply AFTER the 1/2 modifier.

woooaahh. hold on. are you saying that my the extra atack from charging goes on AFTER i half it? really? ive been doing it all wrong

Yep. That's how it works. The base attacks on the characteristic table is what's directly effected by 'smash' not the bonus attacks.

This doesn't make a HUGE difference thought...i.e. Tervigon w/CC on the charge (using your incorrect method) would have between 3-4 attacks whereas using the correct method the same Tervigon will have 4-6 attacks.

roxor08 wrote:
Yep. That's how it works. The base attacks on the characteristic table is what's directly effected by 'smash' not the bonus attacks.

This doesn't make a HUGE difference thought...i.e. Tervigon w/CC on the charge (using your incorrect method) would have between 3-4 attacks whereas using the correct method the same Tervigon will have 4-6 attacks.

hmm 3-4 vs 4-6 str10 face crushers.. sounds like a huge difference to me!

ok so this is my setup

Swarmlord
w/ 1 Gaurd

2x tervigon

3x hive gaurd(warriors pretending to be gaurds)

8x Ymgarl Genestealers

40x termagants

16x Hormagaunt

lots of unbuilt ripper swarms

20x Gargoyles

1x biovore (w/3 mines)

since i had already built the swarmlord prior to yalls recommendations ill hopefully get a flyrant next month and another biovore, id also like some zoanthropes. turny this weekend i may field this army in it if i can get a few test runs in.

Please say you magnetized swarmlords arm sockets so you can run him as a standard hive tyrant with 2+ armor sometimes...