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Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






Why do most people overlook Ravenguard Chapter tactics? I've heard White Scars and Imperial Fists being discussed to death, but people seem to overlook RG.

IMO giving your entire army (dedicated transports included!) Scouts AND Stealth during turn 1 is insanely good. Combine that with the nice little bonus of your assault squads and Vanguard vets being so mobile that they put Eldar Jetbikes and Jetpack units to shame and also re-rolling failed HoW wounds and you've got a very competetive army. Add Shrike to the equation and you can wreak face on 1st turn with your Vanguard Vets

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/15 07:57:03


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Cincinnati, Ohio

I like to run them, which has given me an excuse to use VVs/ASMs, but mainly its for the fluff flavor (Blood Ravens specifically).

The above two chapter tactics are just so good that the min-maxing strategies will almost always use one or the other (potentially even both). Given the fact that assaulting isn't super effective, and outside of TH/SS termies there isn't much that is durable enough to get to assault without being weakened; not many will try to prioritize assault over shooting, ergo taking CT that enhance survivability and or shooting (IH, IF, WS, Sallies) over assault mobility (assault Doctrine UM, RG, BT). RG alleviate this somewhat by making your jump vanguard vets and ASM faster, as well as making your troops harder to kill T1, and the scout & stealth can come in handy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 20:00:42


Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
 
   
Made in ca
Wing Commander






Note, that it doesn't confer stealth to units which are bulky or very bulky, and Chapter Tactics only apply to vehicles when they are a) dedicated transports, or b) explicitly stated (such as Iron Hands). Look at the codex, only infantry have "chapter tactics" as a special rule, vehicles don't.

I use this doctrine for my Blood Ravens as well (with allied Ultramarine shenanigans, so I can have Tigurius as a counts-as Chief Librarian), and it's fun and reasonably effective. The freedom to use jump units as you please and scout movement gives awesome mobility, and rewards foot lists (which mine undoubtedly is). The only downside is it encourages use of non-troop units; tactical marines remain underwhelming and scouts are a dubious investment, though extra-stealthy on turn one, so I don't have the best scoring capacity at present. Most of the other chapter tactics makes your troop choices out-and-out better, and while outflanking tacticals isn't half bad, it's not the same as awesome bikes of awesome.

Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Because you have the rules wrong. The RG stealth and scouts only applies to models with chapter tactics (not vehicles) and they cannot be in the same unit as a bulky model. (so jump infantry get neither bonus)

What you do get is to use the jump pack in both move and assault for the jump infantry and a nice ability to scout all your devs, TAC, etc. even if they are in vehicles (plus stealth for turn 1). This is very nice but not as obviously awesome as the biker centred white scars (bikes are big winners with grav guns in the MC high meta) and the tank hunter devs (certain vehicles are really dominating right now).

The biggest problem is all these abilities are on units people are having problems using properly in the current meta. I do personally believe that this tactic could make for a very good army and have some thought experiments on how to do it but it will take more time and effort than the other CT.

BTW the bit about jump infantry being more mobile than eldar jetbikes is just wrong in every way. The only eldar jetpack in the book is warp spiders and you are also wrong about the jump pack being faster there too.
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






Maneuverability comparison:

Jetpack (not counting deep strike):

Movement phase: move 6"
assault phase: move 2d6"

Jetbike (not counting turbo boost):

Movement phase: move 12"
assault phase: move 2d6" + HoW

Jump pack (not counting deep strike):

Movement phase: move 12"
assault phase: (ravenguard ct) re-roll charge distance + HoW"

or have I got something mixed up?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 21:10:36


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

You have gotten the rules wrong. They get to use their jump packs in assault phase. Not move in assault phase. Look at the rules in the jump infantry and you will see they get to reroll charge distance and HoW attacks. They do not get to move 12".

Also the Eldar Warp Spiders move 6+2D6, run/shoot D6, and then get a 2D6 assault move. They also have fleet.

Eldar jetbikes move 12", turbo 36", and assault move 2D6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/14 20:59:08


 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






1) I didn't bring up Warp Spiders

2) Yes, I explicitly left out turbo boost as that is done during the shooting phase and simply wanted to compare "controlled" movement (hence also no taking deep strike into consideration when determining which unit is more mobile overall)

3) Thanks for correcting me - now I get it. Jump troops can either move 6 more inches than normal infantry, OR re-roll charge distance and gain HoW attacks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/14 21:06:13


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

The RG players must think very hard before going on an assault frenzy (or is only me who wanted to cut everything with my chainsword)

First, read this article http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-victory-by-tarpit.html. I found this article very interesting with the RGct.

After reading it I look my RG differently. Scout and stealth help to bring my Tacticals and Devastator squads where I want and delay my opponent movement. I will have more fun using big squad of Vanguards and Assault squads and small squad of scout and SM.

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

1) What other jetpack are there in codex eldar?

2) Again jetbikes get to make a 2D6 move in the assault phase.

3) NP, if they did have the ability you thought they would be plain old incredible. As is they are merely useful. BTW the raven guard ability lets you do both every turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/15 02:02:39


 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





RG tactics should lift all restrictions from its first half, especially since the second half only applies to units people see as bad or underwhelming. ASM are about the worst dedicated assault unit in the game compared to other army's dedicated assault options and lose to every other assault unit in a straight up fight.

So there's no reason for the first half of the tactics to be so restrictive, ESPECIALLY going so far as to exclude all units affected by the second half of the rules. So if you take advantage of the jump pack rule, you are getting no benefits from the Scout rule with those jump units. Not to mention the huge nerfs to Shrike.

Stealth all game long, Scout to every infantry unit. It's no more broken than other things GW has released lately.

Hail the Emperor. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

I actually think RG is the understated winner of the codex, in a number of ways. Unfortunately nobody will probably be able to realize it as all the units they actually make good are units the community is convinced are terrible.

ASM (5 man; 2x flamer+combi-flamer), vanguard vets, TAC marines in rhinos (MM, grav, combi-grav), and dev units. I really would like to try this army but don't have almost all the models.

The only thing the correct combination of these you could not deal with is the hellturkey and SM have the best anti hell turkey in the game called the stormraven. Another underestimated unit.
   
 
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