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Hello guys.

Let's assume such a situation. I engage my Treeman Ancient with annyoance of netlings( in a duel opponent must rule 6s to strike the bearer) from the front with a unit of stormvermin accompanied by a character which is also my oponents army general. While my warhawk riders hit the stormvermin unit from the back. If I challenge the skaven character with my Treeman Ancient, then most likely he will reject the challange and go to the last rank ,as he can not afford to lose his army general. The question is whether or not the Scaven general can srike my warhawk riders while beeing in the back?

Thanks in advance.

No - the BRB rule isn't that the character has to move to the back per se, but that they have to move out of combat - so you would need a non supporting rank or a unit edge that was out of combat. If there is no spot out of combat, he couldn't normally refuse the challenge (except that Skaven always can).
OFC, there may be more to the Skaven rule than I am remembering, so couldnbe different nt for them. The cowardly vermin...

What about in a subsequent round where they get charged in the rear?

they were retired to a non-fighting rank, do they have to be retired again, or can they NOW fight?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What about in a subsequent round where they get charged in the rear?

they were retired to a non-fighting rank, do they have to be retired again, or can they NOW fight?

That's a good question.

Personally I see nothing stating they cannot fight - I was just intrigued if I had missed something, as I am far from infallible with 8th edition

I see nothing against them fighting, and similarly nothing against another challenge being issued, and them having to be placed ina non fighting rank again if they refuse - for example 3 ranks deep they would now be in the middle rank, if charged to front and rear.

QUite a comical idea - "no!" <run away> "Aaagh!, NO!" <run away> *repeat as more units charge in, character madly running through the unit as the RnF look on....*

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Personally I see nothing stating they cannot fight - I was just intrigued if I had missed something, as I am far from infallible with 8th edition

I see nothing against them fighting, and similarly nothing against another challenge being issued, and them having to be placed ina non fighting rank again if they refuse - for example 3 ranks deep they would now be in the middle rank, if charged to front and rear.

QUite a comical idea - "no!" <run away> "Aaagh!, NO!" <run away> *repeat as more units charge in, character madly running through the unit as the RnF look on....*

You are placed in a non-fighting rank when you refuse. At the end of combat, you are moved back to the front. In the next round of combat, your opponent can challenge again, and you can accept/refuse as normal.
As long as you can be placed in a non-fighting rank, you can keep refusing.
If your unit dwindles to the point where everyone is fighting (or if you get his from behind so that everyone is fighting) you cannot refuse.
If you refusing, and your opponent kills so many you end up in a fighting rank mid-combat, you still cannot attack (it's under the Boo Hiss section of refusing a challenge IIRC).
On the other hand, if your opponent kills so many of your unit that you end up in contact you can be swung on.
I once had a Plague Furnace charge into a high elf unit. The mage refused the challenge and was sent to the back. Between the magic banner hits, the furnace gas, the gas from the plague priests censor, the impact hits, and then all the monk attacks, I wiped the whole unit of spearmen before the end of combat. When we get to the ASL initiative step, only the mage was left. I used the wrecking ball attack and did something like 8 hits on him, killing him, even after he had refused the challenge.

-Matt

Yeah, because if you refuse a challenge then there is no challenge in the combat - so each phase of combat resets the situation.

Hawaii - why would you be moved to the front? What rule requires this?

(I thought the only movement within a unit was Make Way!, and then reforms)

the reason you move back to the front is because independant character rules tell you to do so.




My question on challanges is this:

If that chaos guy that challanges and you have to accept challanges my slann, who also has to remain in the second rank as long as i have 5 temple guard remaining, does that break the game?

I think your Slann would have to go to the front and be bashed upon
When you are attacked on the flank, your characters still have to stay in the front (except for the Make Way of course), but then if you accept a challenge, you are pulled to CC on the flank despite the fact that you're supposed to stay in the front
I suppose that would supersede the Slann rule of 2nd rank

Eihnlazer wrote:
the reason you move back to the front is because independant character rules tell you to do so.

Fantasy doesnt have ICs, just characters. And,a gain, dont jsut sa y "because the rules tell you" - someone already stated that. I asked WHICH rule compels a character, who is NOT moving into a unit, to move back to the front row in the round after declining a challenge. AFAIK only movement within a unit is make way, during combat.

I am aware of the rules which regard characters joining units - this character is not doing that. So, again: page and paragraph, or an excerpt here, compels such movement during combat?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
the reason you move back to the front is because independant character rules tell you to do so.

Fantasy doesnt have ICs, just characters. And,a gain, dont jsut sa y "because the rules tell you" - someone already stated that. I asked WHICH rule compels a character, who is NOT moving into a unit, to move back to the front row in the round after declining a challenge. AFAIK only movement within a unit is make way, during combat.

I am aware of the rules which regard characters joining units - this character is not doing that. So, again: page and paragraph, or an excerpt here, compels such movement during combat?

The BRB faq states that characters must move to the front as soon as a space becomes available.
Being sent to the back and noting able to attack accounts for that round of combat. At the end of the round of combat, you have space in the front, and you are not compelled to be in the back.

-Matt

OK, that makes sense

Just to extrapolate, remember you can effectively remove a character from the fight by challenging every round, every time he refuses he is unable to fight that round.
He must move to the back.
If he was rear charged he must hide somewhere else in the unit and will still be unable to fight.
If he is fighting a unit already and a unit with a character charges and challenges from the rear, he would move to the back.
If you cannot place the character out of base to base contact with enemy models he cannot refuse the challenge.
All this is on brb pg 102

The point was it was only the FAQ which makes a character move to the front as soon as possible - in the actual rulebook you are not compelled to move, assuming you have legally moved there in the first place, back to the front. I fully understand the rest of the rules.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
Hello guys.

Let's assume such a situation. I engage my Treeman Ancient with annyoance of netlings( in a duel opponent must rule 6s to strike the bearer) from the front with a unit of stormvermin accompanied by a character which is also my oponents army general. While my warhawk riders hit the stormvermin unit from the back. If I challenge the skaven character with my Treeman Ancient, then most likely he will reject the challange and go to the last rank ,as he can not afford to lose his army general. The question is whether or not the Scaven general can srike my warhawk riders while beeing in the back?

Thanks in advance.

I'm not certain the character can deny the challenge in this case. He must be able to be moved to a position where he is not in base contact with an enemy model... and if the warhawks cover the back rank there is no place for him to avoid base contact.

Definitely an iffy one.

 Vulcan wrote:

devestator 7777777 wrote:
Hello guys.

Let's assume such a situation. I engage my Treeman Ancient with annyoance of netlings( in a duel opponent must rule 6s to strike the bearer) from the front with a unit of stormvermin accompanied by a character which is also my oponents army general. While my warhawk riders hit the stormvermin unit from the back. If I challenge the skaven character with my Treeman Ancient, then most likely he will reject the challange and go to the last rank ,as he can not afford to lose his army general. The question is whether or not the Scaven general can srike my warhawk riders while beeing in the back?

Thanks in advance.

I'm not certain the character can deny the challenge in this case. He must be able to be moved to a position where he is not in base contact with an enemy model... and if the warhawks cover the back rank there is no place for him to avoid base contact.

Definitely an iffy one.

Depends on how big the unit is...

You have to be retired to a nonfighting rank which isnt always th rearmost one.

BRB 102

The retiring character slinks off to the back ranks and is not allowed to attack that round - move the model into a rank where he's not in base contact with the enemy.

Pretty cut-and-dry there. If the unit is engaged on all sides, then the character moves to the middle.