2000 points Iron Hands + Crimson Fists competetive

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**Sir Arun**

*************** 2 HQ ***************

Chapter Master (Iron Hands chapter tactics)
- Thunder Hammer
- Shield Eternal

Pedro Kantor (IF chapter tactics)

5 Honor Guard w. boltpistols, 2 power axes and 4 power swords
- Chapter Banner

*************** 2 Elites ***************

Ironclad-Dreadnought
- DCCW + HF
- Seismic Hammer + Melta
- 2x HK-Missile
- Drop Pod w. Stormbolter

Sternguard (scoring, IF chapter tactics)
10 Sternguard
- 4 x Combi-Melta
- 1 x Combi-Flamer
- Drop Pod w. Stormbolter

*************** 2 Troops ***************

Tac squad
5 Space Marines
- ML with Flakk

Tac squad
5 Space Marines
- ML with Flakk

Scouts w. Bolters & Heavy Bolter (IF chapter tactics)

*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************

Vindicator

Land Raider Crusader w. Multi Melta

Centurion-Devastators (IF Chapter tactics)
- 3 x ML
- 3 x Grav-Cannon w. Grav Amps
- Omniscope

Right so my list contains many hard-hitting units. To begin with you've got the Ironclad AV 13 IWND Dread that arrives on turn 1 next to a tank and kills it with Melta + 2 HK-missiles and then proceeds to flame units or assault MCs/MEQ/TEQ accompanied by the Drop Pod's large blast Deathwind pie plate for horde thinning in the immediate vicinity.

Then you have the LRC racing toward the enemy with the Chapter Master (very hard to take out due to 4W, EW, 3++ and 6+ FNP) and the Honor Guard (also 6+ FNP). They assault out of the LRC, delivering 31 power attacks on charge, and all of them have 2+ saves with the exception of HQ. The LRC has IWND and so, will proceed to blaze away at infantry as long as it stays alive after the delivery.

Then you have the Centurion Devastators taking on enemy armor (re-roll failed armor pens), MCs and MEQ/TEQ while the 2 Tac squads are holed up in a building targeting Flyers and FMCs. The Vindie is there to further harass any units in the open, again more survivable thanks to IWND

Finally you have the 10 scoring Sternguard arriving via drop pod, lead by Pedro, who can take on hordes and armor as well thanks to their combi-flamer and 4 combi-meltas, and should they get assaulted, can hold their own with 3 attacks each + the 4 powerfist attacks from Pedro. And then you have Pedro's Orbital bombardment - that should shake the enemy up.

C&C appreciated

**Caederes**

Where is the allied Troops choice? Remember, Pedro only makes Sternguard a scoring unit, he doesn't make them Troops. You need to find points for an allied Troops choice to have a legal army list.
You may also want to check the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics. Bolter Drill does not apply to special issue ammunition used by Sternguard.

As for the list, drop the hunter killers on the Ironclad, get rid of the Deathwind Launcher on the Drop Pod - you can't fire it when it comes down anyway - to save some much needed points. Your army list is far too light on models for 2000. Get rid of all the combi weapons on the Sternguard! Combi-weapon spam doesn't work anymore due to the higher cost, tone it down to just the four combi-meltas and they will be just fine. Bump up your Troops choices. Having 20 MEQ scoring bodies at 2K will get you nowhere really fast, especially as your list doesn't even have the killing power to make up for it. What you really should do is bump each unit up to ten - or six - and put them either in Rhinos or Razorbacks to add target saturation in the form of more vehicles for your army list. I honestly don't see a single Vindicator doing well at all, it is too easy a target; two are much better. Centurion Devastators with Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics are well and good, and you have the right build, but I'll have to keep to myself there as I haven't play-tested those enough yet.

If you drop all that stuff, plus the Vindicator - I just don't see one being all that helpful - you will end up with a good 230 points to get the third Troops choice, and bump up your existing Tactical Squads. 4 scoring units is about the bare minimum for 2K games.
Honestly though, I would start from scratch personally. Too few bodies and not enough killing power for 2K.

**Sir Arun**

I dropped the additional stormbolter and dozerblade on the vindie, plus the 4 combi-gravs as well as the Deathwind launcher to free up 65 points to squeeze in a bolter scout squad with a heavy bolter, all using IF chapter tactics to somewhat improve on their BS3.

My goal is to really keep my scoring units away from harm while my other units focus on killing the enemy. Yes, a single Vindicator is an easy target, but if you have an LRC with uber killy 2+ armored honor guard, a dropped Ironclad Dread and dropped Sternguard all up in your face, I think as an opponent you will be forced to prioritize, all the while getting hammered by the advancing Centurion Devs from the back.

And because all these units either have IWND or 6+ FNPs, they will last longer than at first glance on paper, I think.

**Caederes**

That's better! Sorry if my post sounded a bit harsh, but there were a few glaring things I noticed. I think your big issue is going to be winning on objectives, you may have to rely on contesting and secondaries with so few scoring bodies. Let us know how it goes though!

**Sir Arun**

I'm thinking about replacing the Vindicator for a Whirlwind to get some more long range anti-horde firepower going without having to sacrifice a large blast pie plate, and use the extra points for a Land Speeder Storm to get my Scouts to claim a far off objective within 1 turn of movement.

**ninjafiredragon**

also note that allies cant go into other allies deticated tranports, so pedro cant join CM in that land raider, which kind of messes up allot of stuff in the list. also dont bother with flakk missiles, they really wont do anything vs a lfier.

also centurions need to drop the missile launchers, as they wont be good paired with grav cannons. mixed roles.

trading vindicator for Whirl wind and land speeder is a good idea.

**Sir Arun**

The LR isn't a dedicated transport (only terminators and Crusader squads (LRC) can have that) but a Heavy Support slot occupying tank with transport capability. So I think it shold be possible unless you can give me a page number?

**ninjafiredragon**

hmm thats right. i would ask around though, because if thats true, then space marines can go into eldar falcons.... and thats iffy

**Sir Arun**

Space Marines and Eldar aren't Battle Brothers

**ninjafiredragon**

ok true, but then....... ummmm......

anyone else think of examples lol

**astro_nomicon**

Seems like you've got way too many eggs in the one Land Raider. At 2000 points most armies won't have any trouble removing one AV14 vehicle relatively quickly. There's also no threat overload since the LR is the only thing dedicated anti-tank will have to shoot at. Well, besides a lone Ironclad, but no one in their right mind would opt to shoot at that when they have a chance to stop half of your points in its tracks.

Dropping 1 pod first turn isn't all that effective either. 1 melta gun is not going to reliably drop even a rhino. Mobile armies will have plenty of room to skirt its threat range and static shooty armies will have plenty of fire power to dispose of it quickly.

The Dev Cents are going to struggle as well. With no invuln and cover being situational they are not all that durable and can be moved off the table with low AP shooting (think Tau) or weight of fire (think Eldar). On top of that they are slow and will have a hard time finding range on the very things they want to kill most (think Riptide and Wave Serpents)

Unless you go 2nd and your scouts happen not to come in until turn 5, all of your troops will die. Your Sternguard are drop podding right into harms way so there goes your last scoring unit.

Sorry friend not competitive. You might have a chance if your opponent is completely unprepared for AV14, but most tournament armies are.

**Feasible**

ninjafiredragon wrote:
anyone else think of examples lol

Marines in Devilfish

**Thud**

Pedro Cantor can't go inside the Land Raider (p. 112, last bullet point under 'Battle Brothers.')

Cantor only gives the attack bonus if he is the warlord (see: Oath of Rynn, p. 115, Codex: Space Marines).

Beyond that, I agree with astro_nomicon on the list's competitiveness.

**Sir Arun**

Fair enough. The warlord doesnt have to be from the primary detachment, does he?

I'll stick Pedro with the Sternguard then - better not have all eggs in the LR basket.

**Thud**

Warlord has to be from primary detachment (p. 109).

**Sir Arun**

well there ya go. piece by piece my list got dismantled

**Rupertrampton**

Math hammer I still think it's a good list