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I know that if your character would be allocated a wound you can LoS it over to the next closest model.

However, what about the instances where your opponent/a special rule determines where the wound is allocated?

For instance, when someone focus fire's a unit where the only model without cover is a character? Or when someone precision shot's onto the character? There are some models like Telion who can allocate their own wounds. Or, if the only model within range is the character and therefore no wounds would reach the models after him.

I guess I'm asking if "Look out, Sir" overrules all the other forms of wound allocation or if you can only LoS if the wound isn't already allocated.

The Faq covers Telion and the Vindecare assassins.

But those are the only ways I know of to outright deny Look Out Sir.

P.S. you can only look out sir after the wound is allocated but before any saves are taken. (As per the FAQ).

There are no real way to deny a LOS with only one exception being the vindicare assassin.

Edit: Telion as well? i though his shots where only precision shots.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Faq covers Telion and the Vindecare assassins.

But those are the only ways I know of to outright deny Look Out Sir.

P.S. you can only look out sir after the wound is allocated but before any saves are taken. (As per the FAQ).

Telion's shots have the Precision Shot rule, you can LOS Precision Shots as normal.

I don't have my codex but I believe one of the tau empires warlord traits says that the warlords shooting cannot be LOS

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Faq covers Telion and the Vindecare assassins.

But those are the only ways I know of to outright deny Look Out Sir.

P.S. you can only look out sir after the wound is allocated but before any saves are taken. (As per the FAQ).

Telion's shots have the Precision Shot rule, you can LOS Precision Shots as normal.

Was that something they changed with the new codex?

Before it dropped the FaQ listed Telion and the Vindacare as allocating and no Look out sir.

I try to snipe ICs out all the time with Telion on the Icarus Lascannon... hope I'm not cheating.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Faq covers Telion and the Vindecare assassins.

But those are the only ways I know of to outright deny Look Out Sir.

P.S. you can only look out sir after the wound is allocated but before any saves are taken. (As per the FAQ).

Telion's shots have the Precision Shot rule, you can LOS Precision Shots as normal.

Was that something they changed with the new codex?

Before it dropped the FaQ listed Telion and the Vindacare as allocating and no Look out sir.

Just checked the old FAQs (why do people like to write the "A" in lower case?). Only the Vindicare is given an exception in the GK FAQ, and Telion has no mention in the RB FAQ or SM FAQ for Look Out Sir.

 Cheexsta wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Faq covers Telion and the Vindecare assassins.

But those are the only ways I know of to outright deny Look Out Sir.

P.S. you can only look out sir after the wound is allocated but before any saves are taken. (As per the FAQ).

Telion's shots have the Precision Shot rule, you can LOS Precision Shots as normal.

Was that something they changed with the new codex?

Before it dropped the FaQ listed Telion and the Vindacare as allocating and no Look out sir.

Just checked the old FAQs (why do people like to write the "A" in lower case?). Only the Vindicare is given an exception in the GK FAQ, and Telion has no mention in the RB FAQ or SM FAQ for Look Out Sir.

This, plus the BRB states you can LOS Precisions shots.

What about focus fire?

As far as I've read, with focus fire only models with the same or worse can take the wound. So if the IC is the only one not in cover, he can LOS, but there are not eligible models to allocate the wound too.

Thats the way I've heard it described. I've never used it or had it come up in a game.

With focus fire the wound is allocated to the character, and he can then LOS! it, AFTER allocation.

There is no restriction in focus fire that would override LOS!, as focus fire only restricts allocation.

maceria wrote:
With focus fire the wound is allocated to the character, and he can then LOS! it, AFTER allocation.

There is no restriction in focus fire that would override LOS!, as focus fire only restricts allocation.

That basically means that you can circumvent focus fire to some extent? By transferring the wound to a model that gest a cover save, if he is the closest model, and taking the cover save even if your opponent focus fires to avoid cover saves?

Yes, as that seems a perfectly viable way of getting round one of the most moronic rules in 40k, focus fire.

maceria wrote:
With focus fire the wound is allocated to the character, and he can then LOS! it, AFTER allocation.

There is no restriction in focus fire that would override LOS!, as focus fire only restricts allocation.

But there IS a restriction in Focus Fire. It has to be allocated to a model that has that cover save or worse. If there are other models with the same cover save, you can LOS the wound to another model.
But if the IC has the worst cover save in the unit, you cant LOS the wound to another model with a better save without breaking the rule for focus fire.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

maceria wrote:
With focus fire the wound is allocated to the character, and he can then LOS! it, AFTER allocation.

There is no restriction in focus fire that would override LOS!, as focus fire only restricts allocation.

But there IS a restriction in Focus Fire. It has to be allocated to a model that has that cover save or worse. If there are other models with the same cover save, you can LOS the wound to another model.
But if the IC has the worst cover save in the unit, you cant LOS the wound to another model with a better save without breaking the rule for focus fire.

Yeah it doesn't work that way. You've allocated the wound to a particular cover save (in this case say the character is the only model not in cover), the character can then LOS the wound onto a model in cover beacuse LOS simply goes to the closest model.

It goes focus fire -> wound allocation -> LOS in terms of order.

After re-reading LOS again, I can see both sides of this having a decent case.

LOS says it can be a model out of range and sight of the firer.
Focus Fire says models with better saves are ignored.

The rules for one can break the rules for the other either way you go.

I'll just add it to the list of crap that's worded badly that will probably never get cleared up in a FAQ.

Interesting side question: Is you LOS a Focus Fired wound, does the model you are re-alocating the wound to get to take its better cover save? Or would you play it that since the model is diving into the line of fire, it would only get the same cover as the character?

If it only gets the same as the character, then that negates the LOS skirting around the Focus Fire rule.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
After re-reading LOS again, I can see both sides of this having a decent case.

LOS says it can be a model out of range and sight of the firer.
Focus Fire says models with better saves are ignored.

The rules for one can break the rules for the other either way you go.

I'll just add it to the list of crap that's worded badly that will probably never get cleared up in a FAQ.

Interesting side question: Is you LOS a Focus Fired wound, does the model you are re-alocating the wound to get to take its better cover save? Or would you play it that since the model is diving into the line of fire, it would only get the same cover as the character?

If it only gets the same as the character, then that negates the LOS skirting around the Focus Fire rule.

You shoot (focus firing) and the wound is allocated to the IC (which we assume ist the model with the worst cover save). So you accounted for the restriction of focus fire.
After doing that you can use the LOS special rule (which wasnt further restricted by the focus fire rule than its normal restrictions) to reallocate the wound.
I really dont see the conflict you are talking about. Its not like focus fire says that the wound cant be reallocated to a model with a better cover save.

You have permission to LOS wounds that your IC takes by the LOS Rule and that permission is never taken away by Focus Fire.

But then you are breaking the focus fire rule by allocating (note LOS is a re allocation, backed by the fact it says you cannot re allocate again) to a model with a better cover save then declared when focus firing. LOS has a specfic set of rules they are allowed to ignore, LOS range are the two that spring to mind, focus fire/cover saves is not one of them.

You cannot LOS if focus fired upon to a model with a better cover save then declared. That breaks no rules RAW. If you do LOS and take saves on a model with a better cover save you are breaking the focus fire rules which you are not allowed to.

MarkyMark wrote:
But then you are breaking the focus fire rule by allocating (note LOS is a re allocation, backed by the fact it says you cannot re allocate again) to a model with a better cover save then declared when focus firing. LOS has a specfic set of rules they are allowed to ignore, LOS range are the two that spring to mind, focus fire/cover saves is not one of them.

You cannot LOS if focus fired upon to a model with a better cover save then declared. That breaks no rules RAW. If you do LOS and take saves on a model with a better cover save you are breaking the focus fire rules which you are not allowed to.

I'd argue that after allocating the wound to the IC you already accounted for the restriction. You now have an IC with a wound allocated to it and LOS Rule gives permission to reallocate the wound. Where exactly does Focus Fire forbid reallocation of wounds using LOS. It would need to create a specific restriction to make the permission granted by LOS void.

Could you please cite the portion of the focus fire rule that restricts the use of the LOS rule?

In my opinion the Vindicare FAQ sets a precedent that you need explicit disallowance for LOSing the wound to get that permission taken away.

There is no portion of LOS that restricts the use, its the interaction of another rule that restricts the use. Thats pretty basic understanding of the rules there (Plural, more then one).

Re allocation is still a allocation, FF resticts the allocation of wounds to models with a better cover save.


Notice the few rules that you are allowed to break with LOS, focus fire is not one of them is it. Why would there need to be rules for line of sight, range etc if you are fulfilling the rules of allocating a wound to a IC before Look out sir.

The vindicare precision shot has nothing to do with focus fire.

MarkyMark wrote:
There is no portion of LOS that restricts the use, its the interaction of another rule that restricts the use. Thats pretty basic understanding of the rules there (Plural, more then one).

Re allocation is still a allocation, FF resticts the allocation of wounds to models with a better cover save.

Im at work so i dont have a rulebook at hand but wouldnt that interpretation also mean that precise shots cant be reallocated too? After all precise shots lets your opponent allocate the wound ... so is your opponent allocating a wound when you LOS? Why the need for the Vindicare FAQ then?

In my opinion the Vindicare Faq has to do with it since it restricts the allocation of the wound and the use of LOS explicitly which is what you are arguing here for focus fire.

 Mywik wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
There is no portion of LOS that restricts the use, its the interaction of another rule that restricts the use. Thats pretty basic understanding of the rules there (Plural, more then one).

Re allocation is still a allocation, FF resticts the allocation of wounds to models with a better cover save.

Im at work so i dont have a rulebook at hand but wouldnt that interpretation also mean that precise shots cant be reallocated too? After all precise shots lets your opponent allocate the wound ... so is your opponent allocating a wound when you LOS? Why the need for the Vindicare FAQ then?

Precision shots clearly says they can be re allocated via look out sir . hence the need for the vindi FAQ. Precision shots are one of the few times your opponent allocates the wound, focus fire still follows the normal allocation but with specific restrictions

MarkyMark wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
There is no portion of LOS that restricts the use, its the interaction of another rule that restricts the use. Thats pretty basic understanding of the rules there (Plural, more then one).

Re allocation is still a allocation, FF resticts the allocation of wounds to models with a better cover save.

Im at work so i dont have a rulebook at hand but wouldnt that interpretation also mean that precise shots cant be reallocated too? After all precise shots lets your opponent allocate the wound ... so is your opponent allocating a wound when you LOS? Why the need for the Vindicare FAQ then?

Precision shots clearly says they can be re allocated via look out sir . hence the need for the vindi FAQ

As i said no rulebook here so i concede my point until i can argue with real rules support later . Doesnt make sense arguing without the rules in hand.

But another question. If precise shots explicitly allows reallocation of wounds - what about an IC/C focus firing and allocating the precise shots to the ic? Can you now LOS?

To be honest its one of those things that rarely comes up, i have known of the exact rules and why its RAW for ages but i have never bothered to do it (except once to teach someone a lesson ). I am quite sure RAW the one I say it is correct but RAI who knows, I would probably wager LOS would add cover save to the restriction.

Also if you play LOS is a re allocation and that re allocation is not allocation... then you will do well as you have no permission to wound a model with a re allocated wound, only allocated wounds can wound .

In regards to precision shot with focus fire, nope. Again you would be breaking the focus fire rule by allocating wounds to a model with a better cover save. Focus does not restrict the use of Look out sir if you have another model in the unit with the same cover save you can Look out sir to him just fine, that interacts with the focus fire rule fine.

MarkyMark wrote:


In regards to precision shot with focus fire, nope. Again you would be breaking the focus fire rule by allocating wounds to a model with a better cover save. Focus does not restrict the use of Look out sir if you have another model in the unit with the same cover save you can Look out sir to him just fine, that interacts with the focus fire rule fine.

I obviously meant reallocation to a model with a better cover save.

I'm still not really convinced but maybe that comes with rereading the relevant rules. I know that in my gaming group people would let you reallocate to a better coversave with LOS.

Ours wouldn't...
They'd say 'are you sure you want that character out in the open?'

If you left him there, they (to a man, I'm convinced) would then nail him with every gun in sight. You could look out sir until you ran out of men with the same cover save, then he'd be toast. Its a free/cheap kp or first blood/warlord.

Look at it from the other side - I leave Maugan-ra in the open. He is my warlord, however when you try to shoot him, it turns out he is actually leading that 20man guardian squad behind an aegis...and getting better line of sight so he can shoot something with his cannon.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
I know that if your character would be allocated a wound you can LoS it over to the next closest model.

However, what about the instances where your opponent/a special rule determines where the wound is allocated?

For instance, when someone focus fire's a unit where the only model without cover is a character? Or when someone precision shot's onto the character? There are some models like Telion who can allocate their own wounds. Or, if the only model within range is the character and therefore no wounds would reach the models after him.

I guess I'm asking if "Look out, Sir" overrules all the other forms of wound allocation or if you can only LoS if the wound isn't already allocated.

The only thing that ignores look out sir rolls that I personally know of is the Vindicare Assassin's rule. There may be others but they don't come to mind at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
I don't have my codex but I believe one of the tau empires warlord traits says that the warlords shooting cannot be LOS

I forgot about this one too and I should know this since I play Tau.

You break no rules by reallocating a wound in this manner. You WOULD break the LOS! explicit permission to reallocate, based upon set criteria that can all be met without invoking FF, and have no permission to deny this ability.

If you havea model in the same unit that can have a wound reallocated to it, then LOS! is satisfied.

FF was satisfied the instant you allocated the wound, same as precision strike was satisfied the instant yo uallocated the wound. Reallocation is NOT covered in the FF rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You break no rules by reallocating a wound in this manner. You WOULD break the LOS! explicit permission to reallocate, based upon set criteria that can all be met without invoking FF, and have no permission to deny this ability.

If you havea model in the same unit that can have a wound reallocated to it, then LOS! is satisfied.

FF was satisfied the instant you allocated the wound, same as precision strike was satisfied the instant yo uallocated the wound. Reallocation is NOT covered in the FF rules.

And thats HIWPI.

I also dont see where the restriction for LOS! comes from. Theres no mention of it in the FF rules.

I have permission to reallocate. I have a model within 6 inches from the unit the character is joined to therefor i have permission to LOS! and that permission is never taken away by FF. As i previously argued.

To create the explicit restriction of not being able to LOS to a model with a better cover save the FF rule would have to explicitly make a mention of LOS being restricted or that restriction written into the LOS rule. Both of which isnt true.

 Mywik wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You break no rules by reallocating a wound in this manner. You WOULD break the LOS! explicit permission to reallocate, based upon set criteria that can all be met without invoking FF, and have no permission to deny this ability.

If you havea model in the same unit that can have a wound reallocated to it, then LOS! is satisfied.

FF was satisfied the instant you allocated the wound, same as precision strike was satisfied the instant yo uallocated the wound. Reallocation is NOT covered in the FF rules.

And thats HIWPI.

I also dont see where the restriction for LOS! comes from. Theres no mention of it in the FF rules.

I have permission to reallocate. I have a model within 6 inches from the unit the character is joined to therefor i have permission to LOS! and that permission is never taken away by FF. As i previously argued.

To create the explicit restriction of not being able to LOS to a model with a better cover save the FF rule would have to explicitly make a mention of LOS being restricted or that restriction written into the LOS rule. Both of which isnt true.

This +1