Are grenades getting mundane?

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**Sir Arun**

Back in 4th edition I remember how almost nobody came with grenades by default. You had to buy them for your models, which, in the grand scheme of creating armylists and such, I agree did often get overlooked or was seen as a nuisance. Maybe that's what the designers of GW thought too and have now begun a process where grenades are now part and parcel of most models by default.

I think this somewhat robs the charm of grenades - back in the day, they were something special. Not everyone took them. They werent game changing, but they gave your squad a special ability that it didnt have before. Such as assaulting into cover and *not* striking last. Or denying the enemy attack bonuses. If you didnt equip your guys with grenades, they didnt have this ability, and sometimes in the heat of battle you'd realize that maybe nades werent so useless after all.

Now, every Space Marine comes with frag and krak. Almost every Eldar comes with plasma. And most Tau infantry come with photon. Grenades have somewhat lost their charm since now everybody has them, dont you think?

And because an increasing number of troops come with grenades by default, it is no longer an exception to the normal rules of charging into cover, but rather the opposite that you must consider during battle: is your squad, by any chance, *not* equipped with grenades? If so, these rules come into effect (rather than the other way round)

What do you guys think? Should grenades have remained optional?

It's the same thing with searchlight btw. back in the day they were a cheap upgrade that you still didnt bother to take, but then bam, when night fighting was on, you suddenly missed it. Now, almost all Imperial vehicles have them and night fighting isnt the same anymore.

**Psienesis**

In a sci-fi battlefield, a hand-deployed explosive device should be as ubiquitous as laser guns.

**Bobthehero**

What he said.

They are mundane already, I mean, my guardsmen come with frag and krak standard now.

**welshhoppo**

My CSM have come with frag and krak for at least 2 editions, but it is nice to finally see them have some use besides only coming into effect once every 3 games. Although I keep forgetting that you can use krak grenades in close combat.

**General Annoyance**

if anyone used their grenades then I might have a problem. But when you realise that in 5th ed basic Guardsman squads came with frag grenades, you start to question why anyone except the Orks wouldn't have standard issue grenades too....

**Dalymiddleboro**

I wish my daemons had grenades :(

**Happyjew**

I miss frag spines on my nids....assault grenades and got to treat vertically impassable terrain as difficult...

**Frankenberry**

I don't think they're mundane per se. The fact that armies in 40k didn't have standard frags to begin with is sort of silly in my opinion, as close combat is almost a guarantee. In 6th I think they're rather pointless given how shooty the game has gotten.

But again, I don't see why it took some armies multiple editions to get grenades as part of their wargear.

'Nids, I'm looking at you.

**Sir Arun**

My point is, if everyone has grenades, there's no point in writing the "defenders in cover" initiative bonus in the first place.

Usually you write a rule and then take equipment to circumvent it. If almost everyone has the equipment necessary to rend the rule useless, why bother writing the rule in the first place?

I'm sure daemons in the next codex will get a special rule called "daemonic assault" that treats them as having frags, and the next nid codex is around the corner, so lets see.

**Wilytank**

In the case of Daemons and Nids, it does provide a little bit of balance. I mean, how many of you want a Bloodthirster or the Swarmlord swinging at your scoring units at their normal (ridiculously high) initiative?

**PrinceRaven**

I play Tyranids and what are grenades?
Oh, they're those things that come on my initiative-3-on-the-charge overpriced Carnifex and basically usless Lictors rather than something useful like Genestealers or Hive Tyrants? Screw you, Cruddace.

**Musashi363**

Grenades come on everything ...except specialized chaos combat units such as mutilators and warp talons.

**SYKOJAK**

It is my belief that Humanoid armies should come standard with at least the Frag Grenade. Sorry Nidz, no Frags for you. But not every race needs to have them.

With that being said, it is a silly rule to put into place if the majority of units are going to ignore it due to natural given wargear.

**Kain**

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is my belief that Humanoid armies should come standard with at least the Frag Grenade. Sorry Nidz, no Frags for you. But not every race needs to have them.

With that being said, it is a silly rule to put into place if the majority of units are going to ignore it due to natural given wargear.

Tyranids have had grenade like ways to circumvent the charge into cover penalty for a very, very long time. It's just that the great idiot who's name shall only be spoken of in mocking contempt decided that nothing that wants to be in assault deserved them.

**ZebioLizard2**

Actually maybe we could move onto to different ways of using grenades and cover.

Seeing as grenades are now throwable and common, we could have other ways of dealing with charging into cover. Like striking at -WS rather than -I?

**Crazy_Carnifex**

Or, you know, accept that overwatch now represents what the I-penalty was meant to represent, and remove the I-penalty.

**shadowsfm**

i often forget my terminators have no grenades

**ZebioLizard2**

shadowsfm wrote:
i often forget my terminators have no grenades

...

*Checks Chaos Terminator Wargear*

...

Well..I certainly owe someone an apology, because I forgot that as well.

**SweaterKittens**

Realistically? I have to agree with the general consensus here that most if not all armies would have grenades as standard equipment. Especially armies like the Tau and Eldar, or well-equipped armies like Space Marines.

Game-wise? I have to agree with the OP. I think that with them becoming so commonplace that they're a little less 'special' than they used to be. They were very niche before, from my understanding, but that's also what makes things interesting. For example, If every army had the same units, but in different analogues appropriate for that army, it would make the game a lot less interesting.

I'm not really sure what GW could do to make them a little more unique again while also holding to the fact that grenades are generally standard equipment. Maybe special, higher-quality grenades with different effects?

**Sersi**

Wilytank wrote:
In the case of Daemons and Nids, it does provide a little bit of balance. I mean, how many of you want a Bloodthirster or the Swarmlord swinging at your scoring units at their normal (ridiculously high) initiative?

Balance? They pay through the nose for that high initiative value, but at least they have wings. My Keeper of Secrets is freaking I10 and NEVER gets to use it.... Why Kelly...why?

**Happyjew**

Swarmy doesn't have Wings. He'd be broken f he did.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
shadowsfm wrote:
i often forget my terminators have no grenades

...

*Checks Chaos Terminator Wargear*

...

Well..I certainly owe someone an apology, because I forgot that as well.

Theoretically, big bulky armoured units like Mutilators and Terminators, and models with awkward hand weapons such as Lightning Claws and Power Fists, aren't dextrous enough to throw grenades.

Though Grey Knight Terminators have special wrist guns just so they can.

No, I'm not bitter...

**Sir Arun**

It's the same with boltpistols. When the 5th ed SM codex introduced boltpistols to tactical marines in 2008, it made my Black Templars with their boltpistols and cc-weapons look less schpeshul than they used to be.

You could fire your boltpistols and then charge the enemy for a total of 3 S4 attacks per model in that phase rather than rapid-firing and getting charged, which would yield the same amount of attacks from your side in total, but with the added bonus of giving your enemies their charge bonus attacks.

In 6th ed boltpistols used for this tactic have become useless as you then omit overwatch and also become the target of your would-be assaulters' overwatch, and with random charge ranges you are putting yourself at risk anyway.

As such, the boltpistol is a useless equipment in a tactical marine's list of equipment now.

**PrinceRaven**

Happyjew wrote:
Swarmy doesn't have Wings. He'd be broken f he did.

My new mission: Convince an opponent to let my buy Wings for Swarmy.

**TheDraconicLord**

My Necrons have no idea what grenades are.

**Tamwulf**

I'm amazed at the players that forget about Grenades. Or that you can throw them in the shooting phase, or that a S6 Krack Grenade can take out almost every vehicle in close combat.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to show my opponent the Grenade section in the BRB.

Are they mundane? No, not at all. Grenades fill a vital role in infantry. For Space Marines, it means I don't "need" to get a Power Fist for my Sergeant if I anticipate the squad getting into close combat with a vehicle.

**rohansoldier**

I think that all professional forces in the 41st millenium would make sure their troops go into battle with grenades.

I mean, troops in modern day armies always carry grenades don't they?

Also, not all units that should carry grenades do. I am looking at you warp talons!

This is how GW decided to put a bit of balance into a flying chaos marines, with twin lightning claws and a 5++ invuln for 30pts. That price is a steal for what you get.

Marine
2 Lightning claws
Aura of dark glory (equivalent anyway)
Jump pack

That combination, even if you take the basic cost of a chaos marine, is something like 73 pts when using points values from the wargear list. And a Warp Talon with all this equipment only costs 30.

**ZebioLizard2**

That combination, even if you take the basic cost of a chaos marine, is something like 73 pts when using points values from the wargear list. And a Warp Talon with all this equipment only costs 30.

I wouldn't use the Wargear list, it's got points changed to make it more 'costly' for those in the HQ section, seeing as otherwise a MoS or otherwise would be another MEQ on the field.

Not to mention the fact that even still with that, they are still a poor unit that dies out to basic fire and can't even do their job properly.

**Sir Arun**

But they are strictly better than Space Marine Vanguard vets who have to pay through the nose for similar equipment, aren't they?

52 points for a vanguard veteran with twin lightning claws. yes, he has frak and krak, 1 more attack and can charge two squads (disordered charge) without losing his attack bonus but he has no inv. and costs nearly twice as a many points as 1 warp talon and also occupies an elite slot. And Warpflame Strike > Heroic Intervention anyday. And any of the four marks of Chaos make them that much better: slaanesh (strike before marines), tzeentch (4++ inv anyone?), nurgle (T5), khorne (rage & counter attack gives you the upper hand even if you are charged).

I guess the only advantage vanguard vets have is that they can take stormshields to get a 3++, and combined with power axes (or power fists) can bring the hurt to terminators, but at close to 60 points per model.

**ansacs**

All of you saying grenades are given out too freely must play SM armies. Play eldar, CSM, Tyranids, and Daemons. You will very quickly notice many of your assault oriented units lack grenades; Avatar, Banshees, Warp Talons, and pretty much all the Tyranids and Daemons. Notice all these units have high Init and so suffer hugely for charging into terrain. You don't always use the Init penalty rule as that rule has almost single handedly removed banshees and warp talons from the game.

Should futuristic armies be running around without grenades? I would be doubfounded if they did not issue grenades as stock.

Is this a good thing for the game? Yes, I never saw grenades before they were part of the kit. They have also expanded what grenades can do in the game because they have become something more widespread. Now grenades can be thrown, used on vehicles/MC, dropped into buildings, and used to remove Init penalties. They have become something you can use every games and actually matter rather than a niche item that was remembered every fifth game.