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Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
Well I see why someone can plausibly read this in a narrow way, but I think I do not agree with the plausible argument.
Such a limit has always been expressed very clearly in other codex's, in their army entry. The actual explanation of how to READ those entries seems to indicate, in conjunction with the noted asteriks on whether it replaces a weapon or not, that this is not their intent.
So if someone wants to argue that with me, they can. But I am unswayed by this, and am swayed by precedent. I think it's careles wording, but I think it reasonable to surmise that they would not give the Canoness a choice between a holy sword Or... Book of St Lucius. And in neither case allowing her to wear a mantle or cloak? Unlikely.
Anyone else finding it rather difficult to use the Ebook to make lists? I find the flipping annoying. Page memorization seems to be the key. Sigh. More bandwidth. Allocating now...
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: So, I don't know if this has already come up in this discussion, but with the advent of the new Sisters 'dex, I've been pondering the viability of a Sisters blob. A big squad of 20 Battle Sisters, led by Uriah and a Litanies of Faith Priest, would be able to benefit from two War Hymns at once (passed automatically thanks to the LoF), would be Fearless, and would be able to reroll all of their armour/5+ invul saves in close combat.
Do any of you think this big unit is tactically viable, or is it bound to get shot to hell by ordnance/Hellturkies etc?
EDIT: Aaargh, and now I notice someone beat me to it.
The way i used Penitent Engines before (and would again) is to treat them as they were described in the Witch Hunter codex and later this current one: tomb Guardian types.
to put that in non fluff terms: they are reserves there to destroy your deep stikers or keep them busy with a pair of nasty Heavy flamers. For those counting at home, 6 or 7 marines caught in the sights of two heavy flamers is actually quite damaging and will get their attention. That's 8-10 wounds to save against before its charge and while the Marines will indeed get their shot at killing the Engine, failure means a gruesome end. Even if the Powerfist ULTIMATELY kills it, you now have the prospect of a fairly combat ineffective marine units leftovers to contend with and at that range, Sisters won't have to fear them.
So if your intention is to use them as Defensive ends rushing the quarterback, forget about it. But if you use them like Linebackers that OCCASSIONALLY blitz, you have the right idea. In that role, they can do SO much damage. With cover behind Rhinos or in cover, they will most likely be a drain on enemy fire and if there's only one of them, MAYBE two in the force they drop in priority, making them even better at their jobs.
Jus food for thought as you play with lists. I intend to try every unit out as I did before and see what happens.
I am sad to say how few games I've gotten in with the new book. Work is just kicking my arse, and of course, other gaming distractions. But I hear a lot of positive reports coming from various forums im on.
I go gear light most of the time, outside of special weapons. But the Sisters Codex sort of forces the issue doesn't it. One of the rare codex's where they didn't just say "Well, people will ALWAYS take GUY X this way so just POINT him that way". Nope. they made everything an option and said "take yer pick of different types of Priests, or whatever".
For example, Castellan Crowe, for all the grief he gets, is a self contained brother Captain, exactly like you'd pretty much want to build him if you wanted one at all. He's an unlock character and is optionless.
Done the SOB way, he'd have his sword as an option, even though you'd nearly always take it. He'd have a Psyker power you could take called "Heroic Sacrifice". But ya' wouldn't have to.
The sisters of Battle really disassembled things a bit. Even the Veteran Sister Superiors were disassembled, so to speak, to make them able to challenge without the added expense if you didn't want cool gear.
My point is they could have just made him a Brother Captain with those options. But they didn't and Brother Captains aren't really... special. Lol. A Canoness is to Celestine what a Brother Captain is to Brother Stern, kind of. I mean yeah he's a character but... Two wounds... I mean come on. Doesn't truly FEEL like a character even though he is.
anyways i just find it interesting how disassembled they made things. is that good or bad? I think it adds a little bit of a tax on the items you'd want to take because of the "one per customer" thing but it's not an entirely unreasonable tax so...
Mkay so, I have thought about the use of Celestians and would be very interested in useful (meaning actually useful and not filled with generalities) discussion or analysis on them. i have my own ideas, but I have a blog for that. Just collecting intel at this stage from those who actually play them and not from the peanut gallery.
Strong points: STR 4 on the charge (twice if alive enough to use the Simulacrum). 2 Special weapons. Nice LD on the unit, not just the Superior. 2 attacks base. Power armor and bolters as well as pistols. Not terrible. Feels like their usefulness hinges on who you attach. Celestine mayhap? Do priests make this a value buy?
Synergies abound for this unit. I want to find a suitable place for it in my plans. Battle Conclaves are so clearly better at melee besides the fact that Celestians shoot AND fight. Average wounds before a charge and after still slides in the favor of the Battle conclave. This unit needed countercharge as part of its Act of Faith I think.
I can find negativity and defeatism anywhere I go. I'm looking for a good solid role for these ladies. How would you build a force with at least two units of them? Even three. It's an interesting exercise. "I wouldn't" probably isn't a productive answer, but someones going to say it. I just know it... And thats fine. But useful ideas are welcome also.
Okay, postive use? Immo spam at high points where you don't get a second FOC. That's where I would see them.
Show me how you'd use Celestians at 2000 points. I'd be interested to see your imagination at work on this. The banner seems an obvious way to beef them up.
I've been having inconsistent luck with the Avenger. On the plus side, if I field two of them and get them both on the same turn. I can yell "AVENGERS, ASSEMBLE" as they come on the board.
OMG. That is awesome. I totally love that.
I dont "GO THERE" with Forge World, in much the same way as I don't with Santa Clause. I know he's real, but do I really want to include him in my games? Even if he is a Beast in combat, has Eternal Warrior, and wields his two handed candy cane and his awesome Chariot of Time Stasis that allows him to land blows so fast you can't even see him move from his snow globe. I mean, like so many Forge World things that are broken, i think fielding Santa is just a bit much.
Still... Being able to say "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE" is SUPER cool.
You're free to "always have used" ForgeWorld. I'm not telling you you're "doing Warhammer wrong". I'm just saying that I'm not in any way supportive of it being in tournaments. If they want it in tournies, put it in the G.D. codex. The money grab is just ridiculous. $4 for new rules on Dante? I mean give me an Effing break. No other game company is doing this and no other game system is turning people off this way. House rules are becoming absolute necessity and that will make an already beseiged tourney scene more divided.
I really didn't mean to turn this into a bitch session about GW. Honestly. But as pertains to Forge World... I'm not a fan. So much of it is untested theory-fluff. Its there because it's in the stories or it was in BattleFleet Gothic or some other source and so they wanted to make a toy of it, like all commercial successes like star wars likes to do. And thats fine. Forge World is perfect for friendly games between consenting players who want to use it.
I don't consent. So if you wanna play ForgeWorld and the tourney allows it, i will take particular glee in annihilating it out of annoyance. I had an opportunity to do just that in the last couple months. I didn't realize it was being allowed and I was so annoyed I went 5-0 and I made sure not a single Forge World model was left on the table at games end. not one. Sometimes you just want to make a point. Either they are too powerful or they are too expensive but rarely do you get units that are in the middle. In the middle is where units need to be: with strengths and weaknesses and maybe they are on the verge of too cheap or too expensive, but never so much so that you wouldn't consider it an option. With forgeWorld, everyone can clearly see which ones are a gleaming value and which ones are... not.
Anyways... sorry. off topic but necessary. Sisters of Battle should have included the Repressor for example in their codex. i don't see why they didn't. BUT they didn't. So I now do not want to see them on the tournament field. I want to see them on a shelf or in friendly games only.
Avengers are the same way to me. Shoulda been in the codex. Weren't. I don't use them.
If your meta likes them, keep on trucking man. If it's fun for you AND your opponents, then I see no problem with it in those games.
Take it to the Forgeworld rant threads please. Not to mention, as CIS mentioned, your first premise is incorrect.
I dont think it is. But thern... we aren't talking objective truths here are we? We're talking opinions. Whicjh is entirely appropriate for a forum.
But it isn't entirely off topic anyways. The Avenger is a perfect example of what, like the Hydra, could easily have been included. Same for the Repressor which has been around a LONG time... Yet not in the codex. And for what reason is it omitted? Why do we include the Hydra in the IG codex and not take the same tact with others? The precedent is there. FIX the unit from a game perspective and the gaming models right there for purchase. Balance it and make it available. Instead, they make the gateway price for a Repressor the cost of the book you need to provide your opponent upon request PLUS the model. Multiply that times the number of books the various things are scattered amongst and you start to find why people just kinda dont want to have to even deal with it.
Sisters was an ideal codex to try it in, because less people play it, less would be offended by any mistakes to it and overall a safer "haven".
Maybe if they do a hardback, they will include it. There's still hope. But if it isn't, I feel it infinitely unfair to opponents to make them plan for 10 books worth of material they dont have access to within reason. That among many reasons.
I do agree with the Avenger & Repressor being in the codex in the first place, but GW have always "put aside" rules for models from Forgeworld, nothing new there...
But as this post is a Tactica: How do people get their repentia to the enemy lines?
I am getting some shortly, rules looking pretty good, and the only tactic i can kind of think of is: Flank drive up the Rhino, get out behind it, hope it glances to death rather than blowing up and charge (turn 3?) but that's looking pretty grim.
It would however coincide with turn 2 or 3 arrival of the Avenger which can delete an MEQ unit that would threaten them...
I wrote two articles on Sisters of Battle recently, and i do talk about the Sisters Repentia there.
Wow, this thread got long again. How is it that Games Workshop who you know has a prowler here or there, sees this and doesnt give us a hardbound book, but the frigging Harlequins get one?
well the fortifications thing is weird because the missions for them say your half of the board in Stronghold assault dont they? Yet in the main rb, it seems to indicate your deployment zone.
Oberron wrote: So anyone else think the new tau fortification can be useful for retributors letting them move(kinda) and fire as ell as solid protection for them? It seems a bit pricey though and a lot of the stuff is tau only.
Not for 265 points with a gun they can't shoot. They're also extremely vulnerable to blast weapons while using it.
How does blast make them vulnerable? Or do you mean barrage?
To benefit from the movement rules, the unit has to be completely on the tidewall rampart. That's going to leave them clumped up and susceptible to blast weapons. High volume of fire barrage is the biggest threat (i.e. Wyverns and TFCs) but even battle cannons and plasma cannons will do damage because the extra hits will offset the cover benefit.
they won't be clumped up on the tidewall one can string them out along it just fine. normal blast they can still get their cover save and possible to return hits from the 6+ returns an auto-wound/glance rule.
The ramparts themselves are the little circle things. The blue shield walls that connect them don't count for purposes of being "on" the ramparts. So squads trying to use this trick have to be stacked inside the little circles.
@ Celtic Strike: I'd go with the pure Sisters list of the two. You don't have enough warp charges to be effective against a psyker heavy army and units that benefit most from divination would lose their act of faith with him tagging along. The null rod also doesn't cancel enemy blessings out (IIRC) so you can't use him to shut off invisibility to buff the rest of your shooting phase.
What you could do to help out the main sisters force is to drop the BSS immolators down to Rhinos and then use the points saved to buy a naked inquisitor with 3 servo skulls. That stops enemy scouting which is huge in the Ravenwing/Wolfstar and White Scars Gladius meta.
The shieldwalls do have the reflect rule as well you know. you don't have to be just in the circle the whole thing is the tidewall rampart. the circle things are called either the gunrig or droneport.
So the Tidewall comes with two open circles with walls (the ramparts) plus separate gunrigs and drone ports. You also get two reflective wall sections to connect them. To benefit from the free movement that grants relentless, the unit needs to be entirely inside the circular ramparts and thus becomes clumped up and vulnerable to blast. If you are spreading out to use the ramparts and the walls, you lose the movement bonus. At that point, you have a ridiculously expensive piece of cover with only one marginally cool rule (the reflective shooting one) and are better off going with an ADL. At least then you can add reserve manipulation or actually use the gun.
Oberron wrote: So anyone else think the new tau fortification can be useful for retributors letting them move(kinda) and fire as ell as solid protection for them? It seems a bit pricey though and a lot of the stuff is tau only.
Not for 265 points with a gun they can't shoot. They're also extremely vulnerable to blast weapons while using it.
How does blast make them vulnerable? Or do you mean barrage?
To benefit from the movement rules, the unit has to be completely on the tidewall rampart. That's going to leave them clumped up and susceptible to blast weapons. High volume of fire barrage is the biggest threat (i.e. Wyverns and TFCs) but even battle cannons and plasma cannons will do damage because the extra hits will offset the cover benefit.
they won't be clumped up on the tidewall one can string them out along it just fine. normal blast they can still get their cover save and possible to return hits from the 6+ returns an auto-wound/glance rule.
The ramparts themselves are the little circle things. The blue shield walls that connect them don't count for purposes of being "on" the ramparts. So squads trying to use this trick have to be stacked inside the little circles.
@ Celtic Strike: I'd go with the pure Sisters list of the two. You don't have enough warp charges to be effective against a psyker heavy army and units that benefit most from divination would lose their act of faith with him tagging along. The null rod also doesn't cancel enemy blessings out (IIRC) so you can't use him to shut off invisibility to buff the rest of your shooting phase.
What you could do to help out the main sisters force is to drop the BSS immolators down to Rhinos and then use the points saved to buy a naked inquisitor with 3 servo skulls. That stops enemy scouting which is huge in the Ravenwing/Wolfstar and White Scars Gladius meta.
The shieldwalls do have the reflect rule as well you know. you don't have to be just in the circle the whole thing is the tidewall rampart. the circle things are called either the gunrig or droneport.
So the Tidewall comes with two open circles with walls (the ramparts) plus separate gunrigs and drone ports. You also get two reflective wall sections to connect them. To benefit from the free movement that grants relentless, the unit needs to be entirely inside the circular ramparts and thus becomes clumped up and vulnerable to blast. If you are spreading out to use the ramparts and the walls, you lose the movement bonus. At that point, you have a ridiculously expensive piece of cover with only one marginally cool rule (the reflective shooting one) and are better off going with an ADL. At least then you can add reserve manipulation or actually use the gun.
no you don't seem to get it. The entire thing is the tidewall ramparts, not just the circles, not just the walls. the walls are called shield lines, the circles things you keep referring to are called either the gunrig or droneport. The entire thing the shieldlines, the gunrig, and the droneport are as a collective called the ramparts you can be anywhere on the rampart (the shieldlines, gunrig or droneport). You can just deploy the sisters already spread out on the shieldlines/gunrig/droneports so there is no clumping up ever, instead just move the ramparts as per its rules.
even if they are clumped up blast would not be a smart idea to shoot at them with since every cover save made gives another chance of a free hit/glance back at the firing unit.
My point is that the rules require you to be "on" the ramparts to benefit from the movement rule. You can't be "on" the shield line, only in front of or behind it. The only way to be "on" is to be inside the circles.
um... no. the whole thing is a ramparet. You can be ON any part of it.
Adepta Sororitas are sneaky good. I find that they continually have the capacity to take advantage of being underestimated.
My newest list which I haven't painted yet, is designed to take care of the Wraith Knight indignity. Sisters of Battle are most deadly at close range and fortunately can be at very close range very quickly.
So speed and punch are the watchwords of the new list! Fortitude, not suh much but yay for speed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/26 20:41:47
