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Hey everyone,
So I haven't played my skaven much (only once) but have been playing with some other armies but want to use my skaven.
The only game I played was a 1000 point match against Warriors of Chaos and I got destroyed...albeit their was a lot of rule flops and mishaps that may have made the game go the other way.
Basically he had a giant and 2 units of warriors and I took a big block of 50 slaves, 2 units of 25 clan rats with some weapon teams and then a grey seer and 2 engineers.

One clan rat unit fled off the board for some reason due to some magic early in the game (might have been first turn)
One clan rat unit got destroyed against a unit of WOC
Slaves went against the giant and almost killed him, then they fled tho (forgot a few rules so they shouldnt have fled)
Wizards did some damage but not much.

Now onto my point here: I have made a modified 1250 point list to take on a variety of armies but possibly WOC again. I will say what the tactics I am thinking will be at the end of the list but I hope it will work.
P.S I do plan on getting a Warp Lightning Cannon instead of Rat Orgres but this is just for now.

Lords:
Grey seer
- enchanted shield 250 points

Heros:
Chieftain
- BSB, Halberd, Banner of under empire 97 points

Warlock Engineer #1
- lvl2 wizard, warp energy condenser, warpstone token, talisman of protection 150 points

Warlock Engineer #2
- Brass orb 65 points

Core:
24 Storm Vermin
- shields, musician, Poison Wind Mortar 262 points

26 Clanrats
- shields, musician, standard, poison wind mortar 194 points

50 Slaves
- shields, musician 127 Points

Special:
Rat Ogres
- 1 normal, 1 masterbred, 1 packmaster 103 Points

TOTAL POINTS 1248

So my tactics are pretty simple here:
BSB will be in the unit of storm vermin and will follow behind the slaves or just to the side of them.
Slaves will move forwards and tie up an enemy unit
Clanrats will stay near the back to protect the Grey Seer and Warlock Engineer #1
Poison wind mortars are move and shoot and I can fire them into slaves in combat so might prove useful and won't backfire as much as warpfire thrower (well less damaging when it does)
Warlock Engineer #2 with brass orb will be placed in either the slave unit or the clanrat unit and will be used to just destroy the first thing that comes close (I wanted brass orb but as cheap as I could get it don't know if it will work but it might)

Rat ogres will be used as a flanking unit but I wanted t keep the unit small because they cost alot and are fragile if I go head on that's why I want them as a flank unit.
Obviously a WLC would be a lot more effective but I don't have the model right now so can't use that right now.

Just wanted some thoughts on tactics for this list to see if it would be viable and if it will actually work?
Thanks!

Here are my two Warptokens:

- wizards can't wear magic armour. And an Enchanted Shield wouldn't be enough to keep him alive anyway.
Also, I hate to see a Grey Seer in a list smaller than 1,500. He's just so many points, you're really limiting yourself. Not to mention the dirty looks you'll get from your opponent.

- you need Hold Your Ground more than you need a magic standard. Protect your BSB! The Banner of the Under Empire isn't doing much against Warriors anyway.

- I think those Engineers can be adjusted and trimmed down. The Brass Orb isn't scary to I5 Warriors, either.

- Stormvermin need more bodies instead of shields. I'd rather have a few extra wounds against shooting and combat than +1 armour against shooting only.

- Poisoned Wind Mortars are great, but I'd suggest the Warpfire Thrower as well. Larger template, more accurate, and way more damage.
Though, honestly, I'd max out on Warp Lightning Cannons before I bought a Weapon Team, except maybe the 'thrower, if I needed flaming.

- 1 in 6 Parry saves result in a negated wound. 6 shields costs 3pts. 1 slave costs 2pts. Against S4+ units, Slaves are always better off naked.

- you could really use some re-directors. Units of 5 Giant Rats with a packmaster work wonders.

I'd try something like:

1 Grey Seer + Talisman of Preservation (285)

1 Warlock Engineer + level 2 + Doomrocket (150)
1 Chieftain + halberd + Charmed Shield + Foul Pendant + battle standard (107)

27 Stormvermin + full command + Shroud of Dripping Death (244)
1 Poisoned Wind Mortar (65)
28 Clanrats + full command + shields (146)
1 Warpfire Thrower (70)
49 Skavenslaves + musician (100)

2 Rat Ogres + master-bred + packmaster (103)

Total: 1250

It's still a little on the small side for Skaven. If you go with a Warlord general, you'd have a lot more toys.

Hey thanks for the advice!

I agree that the grey seer is really expensive and at this point level it is a lot. But at 1250 point battle the lvl 4 wizard might be a game changer in my opinion but then again I don't have the most experience.

I also was wondering why the brass orb wouldn't be scary?
Could I use him as a lvl 1 wizard, skitterleap around then toss the orb in? It just sounds like a cool item that could cause some damage.

I like the thought of bringing both warpfire thrower and the poison wind mortar, gives more options.

I'm interested in the giant rats, how do they work what kind of role would they play?

That list looks great actually! I will defiantly use a warlord instead of grey seer once I get the warp lightning cannon and and more clanrats or slaves for sure.

The only reason the list is like this right now is that my model count consists of 100 clan rats, 2 warlords, 1 grey seer, 2 engineers, 4 rat ogres and 2 pack masters.
I need a warp lightning cannon and another 40 clanrats.

- a lvl4 is indeed a game-changer. The problem is, he can change the game either way. The more points you sink into any one thing, the more a random mistake or happenstance will hurt you.

- the Brass Orb isn't very accurate; it's got about a 50-50 shot of hitting most targets. And since Warriors of Chaos are I5, all they need to do against it is not roll a 6. Even if you hit 12 models, and they were loaded out (shields, halberds, and a Mark), you're still only killing 40pts of models with a 50pt item.
Compare it to the mighty Doomrocket. 20pts cheaper, significantly more accurate, a larger template, and S5 instead of I-test or die. When the Doomrocket gets even a halfway decent hit, it makes its points back. At this small of a list, it can win you the whole game.

- Minimum sized units of Giant Rats, deployed 2-wide and 3-deep (the "Rat Dart" formation), make a M6 unit with 6 attacks, a tiny footprint, and that costs 23pts. Basically, you send them ahead of your main line to get in the opponent's way, making them waste charges/shooting/spells to get them out of their path.

I ran a list that went something like this:

1 Warlord + halberd + Armour of Destiny (143)

1 Warlock Engineer + Doomrocket + Warp-Energy Condenser (150)
1 Chieftain+ halberd + Charmed Shield + Talisman of Preservation + battle standard (122)

32 Clanrats + shields + full command (164)
1 Warpfire Thrower (70)
30 Stormvermin + full command + Standard of Discipline (250)
50 Skavenslaves + musician (102)
5 Giant Rats + Packmaster (23)
5 Giant Rats + Packmaster (23)
5 Giant Rats + Packmaster (23)

1 Warp Lightning Cannon (90)
1 Warp Lightning Cannon (90)

Total: 1,250
Models: 135

Well if you put it that way the low amount of kills for points with the brass orb makes no sense I agree with taking the doom rocket instead.

I was just online and found a good deal on some giant rats to pik up so probably run 2 units if the numbers are correct with 5 giant rats in each.

I was also thinking of either some gutter runners(5-10) or night runner (10-20), jezzails just 3 (Maybe not sure about this one), and another 40 clanrats.

That should help bring me up to 1500 points with the addition of a wlc.
I am unsure about the jezzails tho just based on the few things I have read but they seem pretty cool.
The gutter runner and night runner I don't really know the purpose of them other than one is good for hunting warmachines but I always mix them up but I think the gutter runner are good for that.

Gutter Runners are absurdly good, but Poisoned Attacks and slings are mandatory; suddenly you've got 2 poisoned shots per model, which makes short work of enemy war machines.
I personally like to run them in small units (5-7) so they can fit between units and in those little spaces where I need them to be. That, and the difference between a panic test for a 5 or 10-strong unit is 1 more casualty.
I've also found them to be really useful with a Deathrunner and Smoke Bombs. Fully loaded, a unit of 5 is 112pts. Not a big investment, but a really versatile and obnoxious unit.

Nightrunners are considered a poor choice by most. I've used a block of 30-40 with a Warp-Grinder to some success, and units of 10 with slings are a pretty cheap unit with a fair amount of utility.

The gutter runners sound awesome!
I find the models look kind of similar to the night runner, with a few differences but maybe I am not looking at the right models?
Would people notice the difference if I painted them up nice and dark?

Also I was reading up on some people using a unit of rat ogres with a warlord on bonebreaker. I was considering trying this with 3 rat ogres and then 1 bonebreaker with a warlord with a fellblade? I just read somewhere people using this to a good effect.

Brass ord is junk to be honest
Ive rarely had any good hits with them.

The doom rocket however, thats nice


I'd drop the rat ogres and bring a warp lightning cannon instead, at 1,250 you will see monsters, and skaven really dont want to be in combat with them.

As above, gutter runners are pretty damn good and should allways be worth looking at.

Also, rat darts (packmaster + 5 giant rats) are great chaff units and perfect for blocking off flanks.

Well, the OP said they would bring a Cannon instead of the R'Ogres, once they get one.
And the Brass Orb can rock really hard, with a little luck, and against the right targets. Ironguts, Steam Tanks, and the Anvil of Doom (that last one makes me feel guilty, just thinking about it).

Ya warplightning cannon is for sure going to be in the purchase book soon.

I was wondering for later would a Hell Pit Abomination work in a 1500 point list?
It seems pretty beast and if it does die it has a chance to regenerate which is pretty good. its like 265 points base tho. So I was thinking something like this:

Lords:
Grey Seer 240

Heros:
Warlock Engineer
doomrocket, warp energy condensor lvl2 wizard 150

Chieftain
BSB, halberd, charmed shield, talisman preservation 122

Core:
50 Slaves w musician 102

30 Stormvermin
musician, standard bearer, fang leader, banner of disipline 250

30 Clanrats
shields, musician, standard, clawleader, PWM 220

30 Clanrats
shields, musician, standard, clawleader, Warp fire thrower 225

Special
2 rat ogres (1 master bread, 1 packmaster) 103

5 gutter runners
w slings, poisoned attacks 90

Rare
Hellpit Abomination w warpstone spikes 250


Total: 1751

This might actually work and I think that the HPA might just wreck some units.

I might be a little low on models at this point level but the grey seer and HPA cost 500 points together basically lol
With the gutter runners it might be a good way to bring the HPA up draw some attention then send the gutter runners in to do some sneaky moves in the back feild.

P.S sorry if I am all over the map here I am just trying to find a good way to have a fairly decent army just so many options to chose from

Warpsolution wrote:
Gutter Runners are absurdly good, but Poisoned Attacks and slings are mandatory; suddenly you've got 2 poisoned shots per model, which makes short work of enemy war machines.
I personally like to run them in small units (5-7) so they can fit between units and in those little spaces where I need them to be. That, and the difference between a panic test for a 5 or 10-strong unit is 1 more casualty.
I've also found them to be really useful with a Deathrunner and Smoke Bombs. Fully loaded, a unit of 5 is 112pts. Not a big investment, but a really versatile and obnoxious unit.

Nightrunners are considered a poor choice by most. I've used a block of 30-40 with a Warp-Grinder to some success, and units of 10 with slings are a pretty cheap unit with a fair amount of utility.

Oh so you tried that night runner tactic I told you about. How'd it fare?

Gutter runners have actually been something i'm getting back into using. I actually think they run best with 20 gutter runners but maybe that's too many. Always nice if an opponent has enough monsters lying around. That said you still need something for heavily armored units. I suppose that's where cracks call and cavalry killers come in.

I have a hard time enjoying cracks call. It just isn't reliable in an all comers list. You might say it is but when you are facing warriors of chaos or any of the 3 elf armies or other skaven then it tends to do poorly. Sure you can skitterleap to war machines and cracks call them but in an elf or dark elf army there isn't much in the way to cracks call esp. since monster handlers take initiative tests for the beasts they use. I'd imagine it's the go to for killing steam tanks though.

@chiefbigredman: you don't need to work too hard to have a "fairly decent army" with Skaven. We've got plenty of good options.

A few things:

- your Grey Seer is your General in that list, so he needs some protection. A good Talisman, Skalm, or both. And an Arcane item would be nice, too. The Dispel Scroll and Earthing Rod are really popular choices.

- the Banner of Discipline is only really good if you put your General in the same unit, and you certainly don't want to be doing that with your Seer and Stormvermin. I'd swap it out for Eternal Flame, Razor, or, the stupidly good Stormbanner.

- I'd drop one of those blocks of Clanrats, give the Stormvermin the Mortar (the one that will kill less models if it Misfires), and get another block of 50 Slaves and some Rat-Darts, small units of Slaves, or even a few Rat Swarm bases.

- I wouldn't give your A-bomb the spikes. With the High Elves' Banner of the World Dragon giving hordes of White Lions a 2+ Ward against magic attacks, it's a liability nowadays.

@flamingkillamajig: Oh, I tried that gimmick way back in the 7th-to-8th crossover. Usually with 15 or 20, in 7th, but up to 40 after that. It's pretty good when they pop up in a reasonable amount of time and don't scatter too far, but it's a waste of 250+ points if you Misfire. A bit too much of a gamble for my tastes.

I don't know why so many people like multiple large units of Gutter Runners. They have a big footprint, are very expensive, and are remarkably fragile. I'll take my unit of 5, get some sabotaging done, and leave the monster-fighting to my cannons, A-bomb, and Death Frenzy'd slaves.

Crack's Call is a great spell, but I'd rather have Scorch...or Plague. Of course, I'm a sucker for Skitterleap. Can't tell you how many times I've lost games, but thanks to that handy spell, my Grey Seer managed to survive to lead another army.

Yeah i'm mostly thinking magical attacks are not that good. They're only good against one army (vampire counts) and at most one or two things in some armies. It's mostly a waste to have. It is just 15 pts but that's something that might prevent you from getting another rare choice and that is a big deal.

I take 2 units of 10 gutter runners each and hunt monsters with them and sometimes hide in forest or behind walls. It's generally best to stay far away from some vanguard light cavalry though. Sometimes it's best to remember the crazy movement of some units and to adjust your gutter runners into spots that help that the best.

Of all spells I actually am starting to admire 'howling warpgale' believe it or not. It prevents all flying movement and shooting that uses BS is at -1 to hit. Sure it's not great vs all armies but it's fairly simple and saying you basically forced a daemon prince to get stuck behind one of his stupid units because he can't fly and therefore slow him down a ton is hilarious for such a low cost of a spell. I actually have seen better players fight to get rid of that spell leaving me with spells like plague or scorch to cast freely at them without that many dispel dice to worry about.

I am often finding myself prefer wither over bless with filth since wither stacks and generally it's a bigger deal to me for some reason. Sure 6's auto-wound but it lasts for one phase. Wither sticks and you can throw more on a unit. Nothing funnier that a toughness 4 unit reduced to toughness 2.

Bless with filth and death frenzy are admittedly awesome together even when cast on slaves.

Cracks call can be a great spell. An enemy once took a wood elf army and I cracks call'd his transformed wizard that turned into a great fire dragon. It basically died and that thing was strong. It was actually more epic than getting rid of him by dispelling the remains in play spell though probably a worse idea.

For some odd reason i'm seeing more and more knight armies. When I play empire the way to go is usually 2 sets of demigryphs of about 4 a piece and inner circle knights with not much else, with bretonnia there are tons of knights and I just see knights in general. Just the other day I saw beasts of nurgle and they were terribly strong. I dunno I guess what I need is something to punch through knights
maybe cracks call would be good since most monstrous cavalry I know of have terrible initiative (usually about 3 tops).

Oddly enough I may start using plague priests instead of warlocks. Not sure if I will though. I just think i'd enjoy my grey seer to have more of the ruin spells though I think i'd want a warlock with 'cracks call' just in case. I'm still going very magic heavy these days.

I'm kind of anti-weapons teams these days. I just hate how vulnerable they are. If you face enough magic missiles or small bits of shooting an enemy can pick them off safely without having to engage them and then it's just an absolute waste of points. Sometimes they'll even throw a bolt thrower on high ground or infantry in a building or something.

My advice for stormvermin is take a character with high magic resistance for your expensive rank-and-file. It keeps them alive if you have plague and it backfires (which it often has for me). Then there's the matter of magic which does allow saves like wards against it and magic resistance plus a normal ward save laughs it off.

People often take armor on their BSB but I don't see the point. If he gets singled out by a spell he's probably dead anyway as they often go through armor. I prefer going the ward save route with it. Give him the armor with a 4+ ward save and it should serve him well esp. if your unit has magic resistance.

He could always take the 'eternal flame' banner and run into a building. Also isn't it good vs. cavalry, beasts and others? I could imagine the eternal flame banner being fantastic in 'watchtower' missions.

My opinion with the storm banner is that if you take it give it to the BSB and put him in a 30 man clanrat unit behind everything. One time banners or banners that are best used out of combat are great on BSB's but i'd rather not try anything else with most.

Speaking of rat swarms I think i'll boost mine up to 2 units of 3 for a total of 6 swarm bases. Excellent vs. war machines and can hold up some units if you need the help. An unbreakable leadership 10 unit that's skirmisher and can maneuver around units as well as march close to them easily and travel on your flanks without needing to stay within a leadership bubble? I think we're onto something here.

If a magic Standard is One Use Only, it doesn't matter whether it's on a unit or a character. In fact, I'd say it's safer on the unit. 30 wounds are harder to get rid of than 2. And I'd much rather have the Stormbanner and a live BSB.

But anyway, back to the topic of this thread...

Okay so I was down at the FLGS today and there is a 1250 per person doubles tournament. I wasn't going to play since I am not that experienced but someone dropped out so I might be playing.
The guy I will be teamed up with is also skaven but I have no idea what he has or what he will be running but I think he is pretty experienced.

So I came up with this list to try out I have all the models except the gutter runners and the hellpit abomination as they are in the mail but should be here before Nov 9th.

Heros Total 287
Chieftain
BSB, halberd

warlock engineer
lvl 2, warp energy condensor, foul pendant

Warlock engineer
lvl 1, doomrocket

Core 445 Total
25 clanrats
shield, full command

25 clanrats
shield, musician, PWM (BSB will be in this unit

50 slaves
shields, musician, pawleader

Special 265 total
9 gutter runners
slings, poison attacks

2 rat ogres (1 masterbred)
1 packmaster

Rare 235 points
Hellpit abomination

Total Points 1232 points

Sorry for the bad spelling kind of in a rush at the moment haha any help would be appreciated

Looks pretty brutal.

I'd consider dropping the lvl1 Engineer (giving the Doom Rocket to the lvl2, in place of the Foul Pendant), along with a Gutter Runner or two, and the shields on those Slaves.

That saves you 138pts. Just enough to buy a Warlord with a halberd and the Talisman of Preservation. WS6 S5 A4 I7 with a 5+/4+ is actually pretty intimidating at this level. And Ld7 base is simply amazing.

Brutal as in bad? :(

Actually that might be a good idea and still keep me within the point limit.

Brutal as in competitive. But not to the absolute extreme. The A-bomb might get you some dirty looks, but not as many as a Grey Seer would warrant. Or twin Cannons.

I played in a small game with a similarly kitted Warlord, and was surprised at what he could do. Most people aren't running combat-Lords at this level, so A4 and W3 is kind of rare. And the armies are smaller, so you can more easily get your General where he can be of the most help (or least danger). It's one of the few times I'm not afraid to issue a challenge; when I know I've got the upper hand! True Skaven thinking, there.

OOOOH Okay haha ya I was thinking the abomination might be a better choice than a grey seer because I don't have any other rare choices and its strong as well a bunch of molded together rats haha

I am not sure what my partner is going to be playing so he might bring a grey seer so I will find out and let you know.
So should I be putting the warlord in one block of clanrats and the chieftain in the other and how would/should I move them around?

Keep the slaves in front of the one with the warlord and then send the bsb around with the other?

Also should I just keep the engineer solo?
I don't have the best tactics just yet lol

Personally when I run an engineer with doomrocket I find it best to leave him naked then march him out from a unit as a stop gap to prevent charges onto your big blocks that you want to charge with.

I would find out if your partner is running a grey seer or not because they can be quite detrimental for an army when vs warriors of chaos or high elves. You have no idea how much of a relief it is when you throw all your power dice plus warpstones for double 6s to turn that nice important 300+ point group of expensive infantry to mushy clanrats

 A GumyBear wrote:
Personally when I run an engineer with doomrocket I find it best to leave him naked then march him out from a unit as a stop gap to prevent charges onto your big blocks that you want to charge with.

Unless you want some back-up magic. Then I'd rather save the points and/or invest in some Rat Darts.

 A GumyBear wrote:
I would find out if your partner is running a grey seer or not because they can be quite detrimental for an army when vs warriors of chaos or high elves. You have no idea how much of a relief it is when you throw all your power dice plus warpstones for double 6s to turn that nice important 300+ point group of expensive infantry to mushy clanrats

A lvl4 at 1250pts is detrimental to any list. The Curse is a decent spell, but Plague, Wither, and Scorch are the real killers.
The best thing about those Clanrats, though, is that they're yours, instead of your opponent's.