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I'll mostly be playing against Space Marine Bikes (with a Vindicator and two Whirlwinds), and a Nidzilla army, although I try to build lists for general play.

Original List:



List 1.5:



List 2.0:



List 2.5: The Newest Hotness:

Commander 202
2x Missile Pod, Drone Controller, Target Lock, The MirrorCodex
2x Marker Drones

Drone Squadron 56
4x Marker Drone

Cadre Fireblade 60 (allies)

Fire Warrior Team 179 (allies)
11x Fire Warrior
Devilfish

Crisis Team 185
3x Crisis Shas'ui
6x Burst Cannon, Drone Controller
4x Marker Drones

Crisis Team 185
3x Crisis Shas'ui
6x Burst Cannon, Drone Controller
4x Marker Drones

Crisis Team 129
3x Crisis Shas'ui
5x Plasma Rifle, 1x Burst Cannon

Crisis Team 129
3x Crisis Shas'ui
5x Plasma Rifle, 1x Burst Cannon

Riptide 190
Ion Accelerator, EWO

Riptide 190
Ion Accelerator, EWO

Skyray 115

Skyray 115

Skyray 115

=1850

I've been buying models and trying out various lists since the latest Codex came out, with mixed results. What I'm really trying to do is be competitive without straining the allies system too far. Here, all I really wanted was my fire warriors and pathfinders for cheaper, although fluff-wise I like the idea of some newly-arrived defectors from the Tau Empire. I don't want to use any of the gimmicks commonly seen on here (I don't mean that in a derogatory way; a gimmick is a gimmick) such as pairing tiny commanders with huge riptides and whatnot. The armies I'm playing are themed yet competitive, so that's what I'm aiming for.

Can this win vs. bikes and nidzilla? Any feedback is appreciated.

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
I'll mostly be playing against Space Marine Bikes (with a Vindicator and two Whirlwinds), and a Nidzilla army, although I try to build lists for general play.

The List:

Farsight Enclaves:

Commander 152
2x Missile Pod
Target Lock
Drone Controller
2x Marker Drones

Ok, but if you're going to use a Mark'o, you need to maximize his utility. That means either paying the 2-point per drone premium of an FA slot drone team, or at least having the full 8 marker drones, 6 purchased from a full unit of crisis, 2 from him.

Crisis Team (2) 144
2x Twin-linked Missile Pod
2x Target Lock
4x Marker Drone

This is what I'm talking about; get another Crisis and 2 more marker drones. Also, point for point, double weapons are more efficient than twin-linking.

Crisis Team (3) 153
6x Burst Cannon
2x Gun Drone

BS2 gun drones are an example of easy fat to cut in order to get things like more marker droness elsewhere or double weapons over twin-linked.

Crisis Team (3) 153
6x Burst Cannon
2x Gun Drone

Crisis Team (3) 139
3x Twin-linked Fusion Blaster
3x Target Lock

You only need 2 to have target lock, the last one just fires as 'the unit.'

Riptide 190
Ion Accelerator
EWO

Riptide 190
Ion Accelerator
EWO

These are good, and should kill stuff with marker light support. But, if you're going Farsight Enclaves, that HBC+SMS riptide with ECPA is legit. So you don't have fliers in your meta? Fine, leave the velocity tracker off and just use that Heavy 12 Rending to eviscerate little gribblies or even big grubs. Although, skyfire against Flying Hive Tyrants would be pretty sick. Also, consider giving this guy the Talisman of Moloch. If you play Nidzilla a lot, it could save you against the leadership shenanigan maledictions such as psychic schriek, terrify etc.

Hammerhead
Railgun w/ Submunitions
Disruption Pod

Meh. Especially without Longstrike. Meh. Especially with access to plenty of fusion. Meh.

Broadside Team
3x Heavy Rail Rifle
3x TLSMS
3x Missile Drone
(I've playtested this unit to death. Please, let's not get into Missilesides vs. Railsides. I play on a full-sized table and the range and AP have worked best for me.)

Well, if you insist. The Heavy Rail Rifles do look cool. See rule #1 below for my position on this.

Allied Tau Empire:

Darkstrider 100

Hmmm, intriguing if you face a lot of Nidzilla. If your rail sides were still S10; I'd be sold. As it stands, this doesn't make any sense to me without any way of insta-gibbing TMCs.

Fire Warriors (11) 179
Devilfish

Another opportunity to shave points. Drop down to the min 6 and invest more in crisis suits. OR if you are determined to include an allied detachment of "traitor tau" Take a full squad of 12, but with a Cadre Fireblade in lieu of Darkstrider. That's still a cost savings of 111 points.

Pathfinder Team (6) 66

Meh. Marker drones are better and synergize more with your list.

=1850


I've been buying models and trying out various lists since the latest Codex came out, with mixed results. What I'm really trying to do is be competitive without straining the allies system too far. Here, all I really wanted was my fire warriors and pathfinders for cheaper, although fluff-wise I like the idea of some newly-arrived defectors from the Tau Empire. I don't want to use any of the gimmicks commonly seen on here (I don't mean that in a derogatory way; a gimmick is a gimmick) such as pairing tiny commanders with huge riptides and whatnot. The armies I'm playing are themed yet competitive, so that's what I'm aiming for.

I respect this approach. Good way to keep your regular opponents from disappearing. Playing Tau as an older codex can be rough these days.

Can this win vs. bikes and nidzilla? Any feedback is appreciated.

Yes, whether you listen to me or not you have a lot of firepower. You should do fine in most games.

EDIT: There's no AA in the list because there are no flyers in the "friend meta" yet. But with Tau, it's just a matter of moving some points around, so I'm not worried about it for now.

hmmm

I wouldn't really touch the list too much - it isn't going to win tournaments, but it will win semi-competitive/casual games.

You'll want to keep those gun drones in the crisis teams. I've used crisis suits extensively and I can't tell you how many times those little drones have absorbed a lance or missile that would have insta-killed one of my suits. Also despite being BS2 they will land 1.5 out of their 2 shots per turn due to being TL.

You allies are alright, they don't really add all that much, I'd rather see another crisis team and have you just pay the bonding knife tax on the pathfinders.

One suggestion for your burst cannon crisis teams is to give one of them target lock and 2x fusion blasters. Doing this to both squads will give your list 4 fusion blasters to pop transports or TEQ. You may also want to consider running shas'vres in the crisis teams without the commander - LD 8 isn't the most reliable, 9 can often make the difference between fight or flight.

Thanks for the feedback, Shrike!

That extra target lock was a translation error from the actual list to my forum post. It wasn't pointed in; edited the list to reflect that properly.

I dropped the gun drones (I'm not crazy about them anyway, as ablative wounds and/or extra shots).

Also swapped out the Railhead for a Skyray. Alpha strike capability, and markerlight support, for cheaper. I like having the S10 gun to threaten the table with, but the Skyray seems like a better fit for this list.

Darkstrider doesn't work the way a lot of people think he does. He doesn't reduce his target's toughness in general; only against he and his unit's shooting attacks. The reason I have him in there is to Outflank the scoring FWs for better scoring potential, make their volume fire more dangerous vs. high toughness targets, and provide a markerlight once they're consolidated onto an objective. I think he's a bit overcosted, but between he, the Fireblade and an Ethereal, it's sort of a wash for me. He's the most expensive out of the three, but he can give his main benefit to the unit as soon as they hit the board (as opposed to the Fireblade, who can't give everyone an extra shot if they've moved), and Darkstider's decreased target toughness results in better shooting outcomes versus anything tougher than T3. I'm not totally married to him, but for what I'm trying to do (get my scoring units on the board later in the game) and in tactically advantageous positions), I think he's the best choice for now.

Definitely up for some discussion on the mathhammer and tactics involved, though!

I'm not sold completely on double-guns vs. twin-linking. I don't expect the missile pod suits to get much markerlight support, so at BS3 I would argue that Twin-linking is absolutely more efficient. With higher BS from markers, you're absolutely right, but with the HQ, that unit is already going to be begging to get shot at, as it has my Warlord, the lion's share of my markerlights, and will be capping an objective.

Same for the fusion suits. They're going to be operating alone, probably out of LOS to take out whirlwinds and other barrage units. I can't bank on them getting help.

Let's talk about marker drones, can we? The general consensus seems to be that they are undeniably better, but I'm not sure. Pathfinders make for pathetic whirlwind/biovore targets, but they have better BS and are cheaper. The drones can JSJ, but they're considerably more expensive and are worse at their one and only job, which is to get markerlights on targets. Which means that not only do they cost more per model, but I have to take 1-2 more of them to reliably get the same number of Target Aquired results.

I'd also love to get into a discussion about that. I already own the pathfinders, but after a couple of games, my regular opponents became familiar with the concept of a force multiplier, and now they're among the first to die.

Do you feel the updated list is an improvement?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the feedback as well, Gossipmeng. You ninja'd me!

I can go either way on the gun drones. Honestly, I haven't fielded them yet, so I don't have any practical experience with them. I ended up dropping them in this thread to get the other things I added, but it's not set in stone.

As far as the fire warriors go, I own 24 of the little guys, so I feel like I should at least use SOME of them in my games. They offer a useful contrast to the suits in that they're less susceptible to high-strength shots and can put out comparable firepower point-for-point, and can show up in a metal box. Giving them an HQ raises their Ld by 2 (let's face it, fire warriors run away) and makes them better at what they do. I'll grant you they don't make a jaw-dropping allied detatchment, but the only reason they're allies in the first place is to avoid paying more than I have to for them.

I considered Shas'vre upgrades for the leaderless Crisis suits, but I feel that Crisis teams can quickly become an endless point synch (why not 15 more points to give them all a plasma rifle? Why not 6 drones instead of 2? Why not another 15 points to give them all TWO plasma rifles, and on and on). So I'm trying to find the right balance between their ability to mass the right guns at the right places and their fairly thin skin versus most shooting.

I do want this list to be as competitive as possible, bearing in mind the couple of comments I made in the OP. I'm a collector, so I'm not against buying more models if I feel like they'll avail themselves on the board. I just want to play the army without resorting to awkward shenanigans to win, because my regular opponents don't.

Good discussion. Happy to chip in.

I know how Darkstrider works and that's exactly why I didn't endorse his use. Paying 100 points to be able to instagib a TMC would be worth it, but unless you're going to ally in a Wraithknight or something and pull some shenanigans (not your stated purpose) then he isn't worth it.

As for what to take, let me strengthen the argument for a fire blade. You say you want to be aggressive with them but that's not their strength. They're strength is not moving at all, siting in cover and double tapping at 24" with a FB; guarding your hole objective. Let the crisis be adventurous.

As for double weapons, I'm not a math guy but I think with a little searching you'll find I'm right; numbers wise. You're paying 33% more to possibly double your damage output. It's still rolling 2 dice but in my version, the second dice has the potential to become real.

Did you give any consideration to the HBC+ECPA riptide in lieu of one IA tide?

What about maximizing the potential of your Mark'o? What say you on simply running him with a drone unit? Sure, they're 2 points more per unit but remember you're spending points on target lock for missile pods. Is it really more expensive at all? Then you create an additional target too by breaking up the unit; assuaging your worries about its target priority.

As for pathfinders, one unit is fine. Your Mark'o and his drones will be higher priority so they should live a few turns. It also gives you the possibility of wining the infiltrator placement roll and ruining your bug friend's Genestealer hopes.

Yeah. Re: Darkstrider, it's really just that I'm trying to find a way to make my Fire Warriors work, because I've payed real money for them. Lately they've just been getting chewed up by barrage fire now that my friends have realized they can actually put wounds on their big baddies. Granted, at this point we're talking about a small meta evolving, although many of the same issues persist for me, such as: how the heck do I kill that many 21pt space marine bikes?

I do already own a Fireblade, and putting him with a full squad of FWs has been effective in the PAST, so it might just be that I need to find a way to take the pressure off of them.

I need to roll some dice on the HBC/ECPA combo. The latter is an expensive upgrade and nova-charging doesn't up the ST of the HBC, but if it seems like it's worth the points I'm absolutely up for it. I have one of my Riptides set up to be able to swap out his weapon. The other got glued through a comedy of errors.

You're right about the Mark'o addition/subtraction.

I think what I may do is just go for markerlight saturation. Two Skyrays, the Mark'o with a drone squad, the Fireblade, and maybe squeeze in some drones as upgrades elsewhere. I'm coming to realize that the only thing that's gonna let me burn through bikes as fast as I need to is by lighting them the heck up.

I'll post another updated list tomorrow. Thanks again, Shrike. Would love to hear any further thoughts you have on this stuff.

Sounds like you have plenty of material for playtesting.

Be careful not to go too far with markerlight saturation. Real Firepower > Theoretical Firepower.

It's a balance, you'll figure out the right number.

one of my friends runs 3 12 man firewarrior squads, with various markerlights in the unit, and a fireblade. the amount of fire those guys throw downwind is SCARY. and its awsome effective vrs anything not t7 or better. fireblades are very worth it, if your planning a static firewarrior gunline.

Updated the list.

I went pretty hard on the markerlights, but it seems close to the right balance and will make it hard for opponents to surgically cripple my markerlight network. Mark'o gets his own squad (I wanted it to be bigger, but the rest of the army is pretty bare-bones.

The more I think about the Skyrays and roll dice, the more I like them. Even after they blow their wad, they can still give BS4 Markerlight support and fire their TLSMS.

A lot of the elements are ripe for nerdy discussion. How many marker drones in each squad, etc. The fire warrior setup feels right.

What do you guys think?

I think you should migrate some marker drones from BS3 crisis units to the Mark'o blob, that way after you take a few casualties, you're not wasting your BS5.

I think the second fireblade is unnecessary; especially if you're not running full squads of FW.

Updated the list again based on suggestions. This one feels like the best so far.

I threw in the MirrorCodex, but I may take it out to give the fusion suits 2 Fusion Blasters each, or go with HBC/ECPA on one of the Rips. Ended up taking the Broadsides out completely, which hurts my heart, but it doesn't mean I'll NEVER use them. And I can still paint them and make them look like awesomesauce.

Thoughts?

1) Ditch the Mirrorcodex; way too expensive for what it does. Get that ECPA+HBC/SMS. You won't regret it, especially if there are flying Hive Tyrants around (add VT if so) Even if not, the Heavy 12+Rending will take wounds off walking TMCs better than an IA.

2)

"Crisis Team 129
3x Crisis Shas'vre
3x TL Fusion Blaster

Crisis Team 129
3x Crisis Shas'vre
3x TL Fusion Blaster"

You have 3 skyrays. Against your main opponents, this is plenty anti-TMC/anti-tank. You'd be better off with plasma here.

I like how this started out as a friendly list. It's starting to look mean haha.

LOL. Oh, Shrike.

You will find the word "friends" several times, but not the word "friendly." I'm up against Codex biker spam and monstrous creature spam. My friends play to win, so it's only fitting!

I did some math hammer and I really want to love the new possibilities with the HBC, but it just doesn't seem worth a 25-point net cost increase for what is really a nominal gain. I have plenty of things that can strip wounds off Monstrous Creatures, but I really need those pie plates for bikes.

Instead, I gave the melta suits plasma instead. I came up 10 pts short so one of them gets a burst cannon in each team. No biggy.

Also, why did nobody tell me I was incorrectly calling my crisis suits 'vres instead of 'uis? I'm appalled.

If your Nid buddy brings Swarmlord instead of flyrant(s) then I see where you're coming from, but honestly a Heavy 12 Rending weapon is probably more powerful against bikes too. A 5" template is only getting 3 bikes if they're properly spaced, and that's if you hit dead on. Like I said, I'm not the math guy but ECPA+HBC+SMS is an awesome loadout against just about everything. And you'd still have one IA+whatever you want tide.