Black Pete racist?

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**thenoobbomb**

This has been news in the Netherlands for a few days, so why not post it...

The UN human rights body is mulling whether a Dutch caricature called "Black Pete" who accompanies Saint Nicholas during a traditional children's festival is racist, a media report said on Saturday.

A committee of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights is assessing responses to a letter sent to the Dutch government early this year, the NRC Handelsblad reported.

Black Pete, or "Zwarte Piet" in Dutch, traditionally accompanies Saint Nicholas at a festival on the third Saturday of November, when he officially "arrives" in The Netherlands in a gift-filled boat from Spain.

The character is typically decked out in a gaudy medieval costume and afro wig, with his face painted black, prompting criticism in recent years of racial stereotyping.

Opponents say the character recalls when Dutch colonists exploited slaves, notably in the Caribbean colonies of Suriname and Curacao.

"According to information we have received... the character and image of Black Pete perpetuate a stereotyped image of African people and people of African descent as second-class citizens," said the letter, dated January this year and published today on the NRC's website.

The letter by four officials of the Geneva-based UN rights body asked for a clarification from Dutch authorities.

"Please indicate to which extent your government has involved Dutch society, including African people... in the discussions regarding the choice of 'Santa Claus and Black Pete' as expression of cultural significance in the country," it said.

Emotions are flaring over the racially sensitive issue.

Amsterdam held a public hearing on Thursday during which 21 complaints about Black Pete were filed asking the Dutch capital to revoke the permit for this year's festival.

Mayor Eberhard van der Laan is to rule on the permit in early November, his spokeswoman Tahira Limon said.

But Black Pete's supporters called for the children's Saint Nicholas festival to go ahead, arguing that it has been part of a Dutch tradition dating as far back as the 16th century, with the Black Petes first appearing around the 1850s.

In a survey of 10,000 people published by the popular broadsheet De Telegraaf today, some 96 per cent asked for a stop to the debate over Black Pete.

Some 66 per cent said they would prefer that the entire Saint Nicholas festival be dropped rather than stripping it of the Black Pete character.

One respondent told De Telegraaf: "The 21 complaints are spoiling it for the rest of The Netherlands."

Source

Opinions?

I call bs. The miss responsible for this UN letter even asked 'why we don't replace him with Santa Clause' (who happens to have arrived only 50 years ago or something like that around here..), and the man isn't even black because he was born that way, but because of the smoke from the chimneys

Putting a stop to Zwarte Piet/Black Pete because he's black, now that's racist, you silly UN.

**Bran Dawri**

thenoobbomb wrote:

Opinions?

I call bs. The miss responsible for this UN letter even asked 'why we don't replace him with Santa Clause' (who happens to have arrived only 50 years ago or something like that around here..), and the man isn't even black because he was born that way, but because of the smoke from the chimneys

Not to mention that Santa Claus is the American copy of Sinterklaas, moved to Christmas instead of december 5th. Besides, how is bringing presents to children a bad thing?

If the UN want to go after offensive traditions, why don't they go and put a stop to [some village in Denmark I believe]'s annual dolphin slaughter? [/i]That's[/i] just nasty business all around, to name just one example off the top of my head.

Though to be honest I do believe the "black from chimney soot" tale is a recent invention to (evidently unsuccessfully) stave off allegations of racism, and that originally Black Peter was a black man and servant to the saint the festival takes its name from.
Then again, Saint Nicholas apparently lived in Myra, which would put him in Asia Minor, and most likely of Middle-Eastern appearance.

**Ahtman**

Bran Dawri wrote:
Black Peter was a black man and servant to the saint the festival takes its name from.

How could anyone, coupled with his appearance, find this racist?

Bran Dawri wrote:
Then again, Saint Nicholas apparently lived in Myra, which would put him in Asia Minor, and most likely of Middle-Eastern appearance.

He certainly looks of Middle-Eastern descent in that picture.

I think that the real story is that Denmark is so culturally naive that they don't understand why blackface is offensive. If doing something for a long time was enough to give it a free pass we'd probably still have Minstrel shows.

**Frazzled**

Why did you sovereign nations allow faceless bureaucrats to take over? I'll note the human rights body is now made up of these esteemed members:

Angola 2013
Argentina 2015
Austria 2014
Benin 2014
Botswana 2014
Brazil 2015
Burkina Faso 2014
Chile 2014
Congo 2014
Costa Rica 2014
Côte d'Ivoire 2015
Czech Republic 2014
Ecuador 2013
Estonia 2015
Ethiopia 2015
Gabon 2015
Germany 2015
Guatemala 2013
India 2014
Indonesia 2014
Ireland 2015
Italy 2014
Japan 2015
Kazakhstan 2015
Kenya 2015
Kuwait 2014
Libya * 2013
Malaysia 2013
Maldives 2013
Mauritania 2013
Montenegro 2015
Pakistan 2015
Peru 2014
Philippines 2014
Poland 2013
Qatar 2013
Republic of Korea 2015
Republic of Moldova 2013
Romania 2014
Sierra Leone 2015
Spain 2013
Switzerland 2013
Thailand 2013
Uganda 2013
United Arab Emirates 2015
United States of America 2015
Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of) 2015

**SilverMK2**

Ahtman wrote:
How could anyone, coupled with his appearance, find this racist?

You have to remember that Europe has a very different outlook and history than the USA... plenty of the stuff Americans seem to find highly offensive would barely raise an eyebrow in large parts of Europe.

**thenoobbomb**

The Un can't understand why Santa Claus isn't enough.

x 1000

**The Grumpy Eldar**

Now we got some total we can find a better term here Please. Thanks. Reds8n from the UN trying to ban it. It's a traditional festivity. They should just butt out.

The idiot had an argument that this county doesn't need 2 Santa Clauses... Seriously this is the OG Santa Clause, unlike the Coca Cola one. Who was just made to gain massive profits.

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:
I think that the real story is that Denmark is so culturally naive that they don't understand why blackface is offensive.

Oof, bit much there. They have no experience with the fallout from the transatlantic slave trade. I don't think that's the same thing as naive.

**Valkyrie**

I would have honestly thought the UN had more important things in the world to deal with...

**Frazzled**

you mean like the machine gunning of copt weddings recently? nah...

**Ahtman**

SilverMK2 wrote:
You have to remember that Europe has a very different outlook and history than the USA... plenty of the stuff Americans seem to find highly offensive would barely raise an eyebrow in large parts of Europe.

Indeed, but I doubt Denmark is, as a whole, completely oblivious to history. Even if we exclude the US, it isn't as if Europe has no history with black people. If they want to continue the 'tradition' they are welcome to, but I have trouble believing that it is somehow hard to understand why others would find it offensive.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

What has this to do with Denmark..

**Ahtman**

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
What has this to do with Denmark..

I typed the wrong thing and then ended up repeating it. It has to do more with this not being revised and rewritten in the same way a paper would be, and even if it were, there isn't the time as people add to the conversation.

**SilverMK2**

Ahtman wrote:
Indeed, but I doubt Denmark is, as a whole, completely oblivious to history. Even if we exclude the US, it isn't as if Europe has no history with black people. If they want to continue the 'tradition' they are welcome to, but I have trouble believing that it is somehow hard to understand why others would find it offensive.

"Denmark" (or the Netherlands as the case may be

) certainly does have a history with black people. It is different to that in the USA. Hence different attitudes towards this particular practice. I don't doubt that someone doing something like this in the US would be lynched (ironically

) for being "insensitive"... apparently in the Netherlands it is pretty much fine; precisely because they have a different history and different attitudes. They, I am sure, can see why some (such as Americans) might find it offensive, but why stop doing it if they don't (apparently also including the black population of the country?)?

**Ahtman**

SilverMK2 wrote:
It is different to that in the USA. Hence different attitudes towards this particular practice.

Being different doesn't mean being oblivious; the Netherlands hasn't been completely cut off from the rest of the world.

SilverMK2 wrote:
but why stop doing it if they don't (apparently also including the black population of the country?)?

I'm not arguing they should stop it, it is their tradition and can make that choice, my point of contention is in acting as if it is some great shock that others would see it as offensive. You don't have to be from the US to know that blackface doesn't go over well with a lot of people, and for fairly good reasons too.

**SilverMK2**

Ahtman wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
but why stop doing it if they don't (apparently also including the black population of the country?)?

I'm not arguing they should stop it, it is their tradition and can make that choice, my point of contention is in acting as if it is some great shock that others would see it as offensive. You don't have to be from the US to know that blackface doesn't go over well with a lot of people, and for fairly good reasons too.

Bolded the important part.

**Ahtman**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Bolded the important part.

Repeating it doesn't really change anything. The four black guys in the Netherlands feelings about it doesn't change the global history of blackface or the capacity to understand why others would find it offensive.

**necrondog99**

Ahtman wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
You have to remember that Europe has a very different outlook and history than the USA... plenty of the stuff Americans seem to find highly offensive would barely raise an eyebrow in large parts of Europe.

Indeed, but I doubt Denmark is, as a whole, completely oblivious to history. Even if we exclude the US, it isn't as if Europe has no history with black people. If they want to continue the 'tradition' they are welcome to, but I have trouble believing that it is somehow hard to understand why others would find it offensive.

What I have a hard time believing is why people go out of their way to BE offended. It's like some kind of weird hobby.

- J

**Frazzled**

Why does this pic freak me out?

**SilverMK2**

Ahtman wrote:
Repeating it doesn't really change anything. The four black guys in the Netherlands feelings about it doesn't change the global history of blackface or the capacity to understand why others would find it offensive.

Again, I am not saying it does. I'm saying that what "the rest of the world" (ie you) feel about it doesn't really change the fact that "the four black guys in the Netherlands" (ie the people who actually matter) are OK with it. I'm sure they would be confused about your lack of capacity to understand that they don't find it particularly offensive.

**Ahtman**

necrondog99 wrote:
What I have a hard time believing is why people go out of their way to BE offended. It's like some kind of weird hobby.

In this case one need not go out of their way, they just need to have functioning eyes. Having a solid understanding of history helps to, but isn't really needed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:
Again, I am not saying it does. I'm saying that what "the rest of the world" (ie you) feel about it doesn't really change the fact that "the four black guys in the Netherlands" (ie the people who actually matter) are OK with it. I'm sure they would be confused about your lack of capacity to understand that they don't find it particularly offensive.

I understand why they wouldn't find it offensive, and I would thank you to not put words in my mouth, as I never even alluded to such a thing. I would disagree that in a global, or even just European, environment pretending to be completely isolated is a bit silly, and that nothing anyone else says or thinks has no impact whatsoever. This whole thread was started because the UN (a Global organization) made a statement about it, so it seems like the place to discuss it in a broader sense. If we could only discuss it in the limited purview of only the POV of those in the Netherlands then it wouldn't be up for discussion at all, but that isn't the context of this thread.

**Disciple of Fate**

Ahtman wrote:
necrondog99 wrote:
What I have a hard time believing is why people go out of their way to BE offended. It's like some kind of weird hobby.

In this case one need not go out of their way, they just need to have functioning eyes. Having a solid understanding of history helps to, but isn't really needed.

So have you ever heard of this tradition before the UN made it an issue? Sinterklaas as we call it is also celebrated in Belgium, but were the only ones catching the flak from the spokeswoman of the UN. Besides we have adapted it in the US, because there people were offended by it. But here it doesnt seem to offend that many people, not even the decendants of former slaves living here. And to use a Dutch argument starting to pop up against the US: isnt it discriminatory to use little people as elfs to santa clause. Or isnt the use of elves to make toys also a depiction of slavery, without the offensive blackface?

Im not entirely sure about myself on the issue, I can see the offensive side, yet there are many traditions people can find offensive. But this all seems a bit biased. Why not put some people of colour from the Netherlands on the board. Why use a Jamaican as a spokesperson, which many Dutch already perceive as biased before finishing the research? Why not someone with Asian or Middle-Eastern roots? Her remarks to Dutch media dont make the situation any better, since we feel we have already been condemned before we can defend ourselves.

**Kovnik Obama**

I haven't had much luck with the Dutch or the Belgians. My workplace hire them out by the dozen, as well as other immigrants. They don't mix very well togheter. It's been a wake up call, since I didn't realize how much racism was still very frequent in western Europe.

There's this adorable looking belgian hottie that keeps trying to tell me that gangs of muslim rapists hunt at night in Brussels. A boner is a hard thing to reconcile with horrifying racism, let me tell you that.

**mr_bruno**

Frazzled wrote:

Why does this pic freak me out?

Because Schwarze Peter has a wife/girlfriend?

I see the need to ban/distort traditions for the sake of hurt feelings has spread to Europe? Alas.

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:
the global history of blackface

Blackface does not mean the same thing always and everywhere.

**Frazzled**

There's this adorable looking belgian hottie that keeps trying to tell me that gangs of muslim rapists hunt at night in Brussels. A boner is a hard thing to reconcile with horrifying racism, let me tell you that.

Unless she's accurate of course. DOn't assume not unless there is evidence otherwise.

My view. These countries can tell the UN to bite them, and of course Merry Christmas.

**Disciple of Fate**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
I haven't had much luck with the Dutch or the Belgians. My workplace hire them out by the dozen, as well as other immigrants. They don't mix very well togheter. It's been a wake up call, since I didn't realize how much racism was still very frequent in western Europe.

There's this adorable looking belgian hottie that keeps trying to tell me that gangs of muslim rapists hunt at night in Brussels. A boner is a hard thing to reconcile with horrifying racism, let me tell you that.

Its mostly politics driving up the rascism in the last couple of years. You have probably heard of Wilders, but most European countries have similar people in politics. Sadly they affect people with their opinions about muslims (atm). But those are people who have in most cases never even had a prolonged conversation with a muslim. To illustrate, Wilders has a large base of support in our South-East province, which has one of the lowest amounts of muslims that live there. Again, sadly these people seem to accept things they hear from politicians, without them trying to check out the facts for themselves. Its not as bad as people would like you to believe, its more xenophobia that real rascism, which (correct me if Im wrong) seems to be similar to say the attitude of some people in the US towards Mexican immigrants.

That Belgian coworker might not be the most representative, you should ask her if she used to vote for Vlaams Belang, that would clear things up.

**Kovnik Obama**

Frazzled wrote:

There's this adorable looking belgian hottie that keeps trying to tell me that gangs of muslim rapists hunt at night in Brussels. A boner is a hard thing to reconcile with horrifying racism, let me tell you that.

Unless she's accurate of course. DOn't assume not unless there is evidence otherwise.

She's making it sound as if there's a couvre-feu at dark and any white person caught outside will be beaten up if male or raped if female. She is not accurate.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Disciple of Fate wrote:
To illustrate, Wilders has a large base of support in our South-East province, which has one of the lowest amounts of muslims that live there.

I'm trying to find numbers on ethnic and religious groups in Belgium, to have an idea how much of the population is muslim. I keep running into the 3.5% of financial support from the state, but that doesn't give much of an idea. Would you happen to know how much of Belgium is muslim?

Its not as bad as people would like you to believe, its more xenophobia that real rascism, which (correct me if Im wrong) seems to be similar to say the attitude of some people in the US towards Mexican immigrants.

Or some French-Canadians against non-franchophones. There's xenophobia everywhere, it's the result of a natural bias. What's more troubling, in what I see from my co-workers, is that voicing xenophobic comments seems to be perfectly acceptable. I mean, I've displayed my disgust for their opinions quite a few times, and they keep on bringing it up. She (and her other compatriots) work in a VERY diverse workplace, yet they don't mind voicing very racist comments out loud only a few meters away from those that would (and should) take offence.

Right now in Quebec we have a sort of multi-cultural crisis (built out of nothing, really) over the integration of muslims, around questions of reasonnable accomodations. Do we allow a government employee to render public services while wearing the hijab or the burka? How do we respond to a request by a muslim parent to have their daughter taught exclusively by females? That kind of question. A lot of it is driven by xenophobia, but if a single politician were to slip and make an actual racist comment, he'd be destroyed publicly. One public figure already did, and despite the fact that she's held in a lot of admiration here, her reputation will never recover.

That Belgian coworker might not be the most representative, you should ask her if she used to vote for Vlaams Belang, that would clear things up.

It's why I said I haven't had much luck as of yet. That co-worker is representative of the group of belgian workers, at the very least, so (blonde) kids between 20-25. Here it's that specific group which is the most sensitive to ethnic and immigrations issues, sometimes even a little too much. So I was really surprised.

I do know 2 couples of muslims that have lived in France and Belgium and moved here because the social stigma was too much. Of course, that's also anecdotal evidence...

**Cheesecat**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Its not as bad as people would like you to believe, its more xenophobia that real rascism, which (correct me if Im wrong) seems to be similar to say the attitude of some people in the US towards Mexican immigrants.
Or some French-Canadians against non-franchophones. There's xenophobia everywhere, it's the result of a natural bias. What's more troubling, in what I see from my co-workers, is that voicing xenophobic comments seems to be perfectly acceptable. I mean, I've displayed my disgust for their opinions quite a few times, and they keep on bringing it up. She (and her other compatriots) work in a VERY diverse workplace, yet they don't mind voicing very racist comments out loud only a few meters away from those that would (and should) take offence.

Right now in Quebec we have a sort of multi-cultural crisis (built out of nothing, really) over the integration of muslims, around questions of reasonnable accomodations. Do we allow a government employee to render public services while wearing the hijab or the burka? How do we respond to a request by a muslim parent to have their daughter taught exclusively by females? That kind of question. A lot of it is driven by xenophobia, but if a single politician were to slip and make an actual racist comment, he'd be destroyed publicly. One public figure already did, and despite the fact that she's held in a lot of admiration here, her reputation will never recover.

But couldn't you argue for the removal of the burqa and/or hijab on the idea that it's sexist as it dehumanizes women (removes their identity)?

**Disciple of Fate**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
I'm trying to find numbers on ethnic and religious groups in Belgium, to have an idea how much of the population is muslim. I keep running into the 3.5% of financial support from the state, but that doesn't give much of an idea. Would you happen to know how much of Belgium is muslim?

Its about 5% of the population, 400.000-500.000.

Or some French-Canadians against non-franchophones. There's xenophobia everywhere, it's the result of a natural bias. What's more troubling, in what I see from my co-workers, is that voicing xenophobic comments seems to be perfectly acceptable. I mean, I've displayed my disgust for their opinions quite a few times, and they keep on bringing it up. She (and her other compatriots) work in a VERY diverse workplace, yet they don't mind voicing very racist comments out loud only a few meters away from those that would (and should) take offence.

Right now in Quebec we have a sort of multi-cultural crisis (built out of nothing, really) over the integration of muslims, around questions of reasonnable accomodations. Do we allow a government employee to render public services while wearing the hijab or the burka? How do we respond to a request by a muslim parent to have their daughter taught exclusively by females? That kind of question. A lot of it is driven by xenophobia, but if a single politician were to slip and make an actual racist comment, he'd be destroyed publicly. One public figure already did, and despite the fact that she's held in a lot of admiration here, her reputation will never recover.

Its a result of the political culture here. Its a very much accepted fact that is defended by free speech. Pointing out the rascism and making comparisons with fascist parties is a no-go, while saying things which might destroy you politically in Canada are perfectly acceptable (things like calling a hijab a headrag was accepted, even though most found the term extremely offensive).

It's why I said I haven't had much luck as of yet. That co-worker is representative of the group of belgian workers, at the very least, so (blonde) kids between 20-25. Here it's that specific group which is the most sensitive to ethnic and immigrations issues, sometimes even a little too much. So I was really surprised.

I do know 2 couples of muslims that have lived in France and Belgium and moved here because the social stigma was too much. Of course, that's also anecdotal evidence...

Thats an unfortunate group. Most people dont share those views, most Belgians have more problems with the French-Dutch speaking issues than with groups of people like muslims. But it the social stigma could be too much for some I guess, because of the disproportionate amount of attention these xenophobic views receive in the media.