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So, the all-inclusive Mine Cart level went from $325 to $475?! If I wanted in now, I have to pay $150 more than the "Early Birds"? And it will go up from there? feth that.

I can understand putting up a discounted Early Bird style level and limiting that, but stretching out the amount that much seems pretty gakky. Maybe it's just me though, I dunno.

I'll check and see if I can snag an early $325-$375 level pledge because the game looks like something I would love. If I can't though, not likely to pledge.

~Eric

 cincydooley wrote:
Have they said what the exclusive bits and bobs associated with this project are? Is it just the one character class?

I can't find any of it that is KS exclusive yet. I may be overlooking something, but it seems no pure exclusives yet.

Waiting to see what they do about Mine Cart. Put in a $1 pledge to get updates for now.

~Eric

Edit:

Aeneades wrote:

At the moment it is just the one character class but some items will only be available directly from the FFP store post launch.

Which one? And where is that information at?

Edit2:
Nevermind. I was only looking at the stretch and add-on stuff. It is the Outlaw KS Exclusive class for anyone else who is wondering.

Aeneades wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Have they said what the exclusive bits and bobs associated with this project are? Is it just the one character class?

I can't find any of it that is KS exclusive yet. I may be overlooking something, but it seems no pure exclusives yet.

Waiting to see what they do about Mine Cart. Put in a $1 pledge to get updates for now.

~Eric

The Outlaw Character class is the currently Kickstarter exclusive (consists of a Male mini, Female mini and rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Taarnak wrote:


Which one? And where is that information at?

If you look at the pledge goals at the top of the page it shows that it's exclusive (Outlaw level and above).

Thanks, and yeah I saw it. Skimmed the images here and then immediately went to the KS page. Didn't really look at them in detail, lol.

~Eric

 Alpharius wrote:
Thanks for the link!

This was interesting:

Creator Flying Frog Productions about 18 hours ago

Hey Guys, just an update on things.

I think that the biggest discrepancy is that everyone seems to view the 'actual value' of the Mine Cart at $325. We view the value upwards of $700 or more if we hit all the Add-Ons we want to make. Yes, this means that the backers that got in at the Round 1 level for $325 got a good deal. A very good deal even. And so did the Round 2s and the Round 3s and really all of the Mine Cart backers. The idea that the later Round backers are somehow being charged to get extra stuff for the earlier Mine Cart backers is simply not the case...anymore than the idea that the Round 1 Mine Cart backers are being charged extra to get more stuff for the Outlaw backers.

The fact that the earlier Round Mine Carts filled up so fast is what has allowed us to start filling out the Add-Ons menu so quickly. No matter what the Mine Cart Round you back, you will get a very good deal.

The most frustrating thing to us right now is that we want to be working on cool content and updating the page as more stretch goals are unlocked, but instead we are dealing with the flood of hate.

We have discussed different options of things we can do to help mitigate the frustrations that several of you are feeling. We want our backers to be happy and we want to make as much cool stuff for this game as we can. We also know that no matter what we do, we will not be able to make everyone happy (you never can).

We are currently planning a one-time event to open up a limited number of additional Round 1, 2, 3, and 4 Mine Cart Pledge Levels (doubling them from 25 to 50) to give all of our backers that were caught off-guard by the slightly delayed kickoff a chance to get in on the lower Round Pledges. We will be sending out an update announcement as well as posting on Boardgamegeek shortly to let everyone know the exact time that these Mine Cart Levels will have their Limits increased. This will give everyone a fair shot to get back in at the lower level Mine Carts.

We value all of the backers that are helping fill out the Shadows of Brimstone Product Line straight out of the gate and we are working hard to make sure that everyone gets a great game and a great value!

So... there's another chance, coming up at some point!

Interesting in that it was a giant load of bs that said very little?

Whether they like to admit it or not, anyone who gets in at a highr "Mine Cart" level IS subsidizing to some extent everyone else at that same level. They tried to dodge around that issue by comparing "Mine Cart" to "Outlaw" which is flawed, at best, and outright deceptive at worst.

I really want to get in on this, but dodging the issue here makes me less comfortable in doing so.

Here's hoping...

~Eric

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:It's only subsidising it IF the cheapest EB is less than it costs them to manufacture

now that may or may not be true I don't know,

but I think it's quite possible that they chose to price the EB at break even assuming 'full unlocks'

This is a quote taken from one of their KS comments:

The higher Round Mine Carts allow us to include even more Add-Ons, making all of the Mine Carts a better value.

The full quote:

@Joshua Russell - I think you misunderstand. The more Add-Ons we include, the less effective the earliest Mine Cart Rounds are at covering the costs. But, having those early Rounds allows us to include more Add-Ons in the first place and grow the product line. That is why it is a progressive system. The higher Round Mine Carts allow us to include even more Add-Ons, making all of the Mine Carts a better value. Because of that though, going back and adding more quantity on 'low cost' Mine Cart Rounds is less feasible the bigger the product line gets.

So, they fully admit that they intend that the other MC level subsidize the earliest level. And that would be okay, if the discrepancy wasn't so damn big. Also, economy of scale comes into play, meaning that the more units they have to produce the cheaper it will be to do so per unit.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

I completely disagree. He's right. The flood of early high pledge backers created the momentum that swept along a lot of other stretch goals, which got others involved. Making them limited means people had to jump on them then, instead of farting around with a one dollar pledge and upping it at the end, or in an add on pledge. Nothing breeds success in KS like making your target early and blasting through multiple stretch goals on the first day. There's an unusual KS psychology where people wont back a project that's seen as floundering, and will pull out early, even though if the goal isnt met they arent charged anything. So you want to come out of the gate strong, and that's what they did.

People just dont like his answer. The early pledgers that got the ball rolling got a better deal. Its no different than someone whining at retail that their purchase price was inflated because KS backers got a better deal. And lest people accuse me of favoring this because I'm benefitting from one of the cheap Mine Cart packages, I havent backed the project, just commenting on what seems to have worked well for other kickstarters by having cheaper early birds, including Kingdom Death and Cthulhu Wars.

Your response has little to nothing to do with what I said.

Yes, the early pledgers did get the ball rolling. And got a deeper discount for it. No one said otherwise... Also, how many of those Mine Cart pledges do you think are holding on to them just in case? I'd bet that damn near all of them over the $375 level are. So, who did FFP help when those folks drop down or out altogether?

It is the size of the discrepancy that I and most others have issue with.

Another point you might not have picked up on is that this particular pledge level includes the paid add-ons as well as the stretch goals. Add-ons which are totally unrelated to the KS total or any Stretch Goals.

Anyway, I hope they see reason and adjust this debacle to something that makes more sense.

~Eric

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

So the issue now is just quibbling over how much of an early bird discount is acceptable and people mad they didnt get it as cheap as someone else did? The retail customers will have it even worse (wont someone think of the retail schlubs?!) Cthulhu Wars offered a similar price break of roughly 30% off ($150 cultist, $110 early bird), and I dont remember people up in arms. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I just dont get the hate the company has been getting in the comments section vs "bummer I didnt get it cheaper".

Retail customers have no business in this discussion. They are not taking a risk with their money, nor paying roughly a year in advance to "support" the project, they have the benefit of seeing reviews and the product in hand before purchasing, and they can find a discount.

If Cthulhu Wars had offered a limited EB for $150, then another one with the same rewards for $300, you would have heard plenty of (justified) complaints.

If FFP had initially offered the Mine Cart pledge EB as $325, limited to 25 backers and then at $375 open to everyone, mine and many others' statement on the matter would have been "Bummer I didn't get it cheaper".

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Probably not many are being camped IMO. Two days in and its already got $233 value added over the $225 Deluxe Outlaw level, so the currently highest price Mine Cart only needs $17 more of add on goals unlocked to make it worth it (of course, assuming you want everything). as the campaign wears on, even the $475 gets to be better , given that they said they expect to unlock enough add ons to bring it up to $700 retail. So get the level which appeals and any add ons you feel are worth it (or wait until retail, where it will be 20-25% off at online discounters). Its not even like the Mine Cart gets anything exclusive that the other levels cant also get, which was my issue with Wyrd's through the breach KS. If you missed those early birds, you couldnt even PAY to get the stuff you missed out on (and I say this as someone who got them).

You are likely right that the lowest MC pledges are going to stay in. Many folks have said in the comments that they are pledging wt the higher ones as placeholders to see if either a lower level comes open, or the higher one becomes a good enough value. These same people say they will either drop down to the $150 level if they intend to stay in or drop to $1, or outright cancel their pledge if they can't get more value. So there is a good bit of "inflation" here, either way.

There have been a few comparisons to other FFP games and comparable games from other manufacturers and there seems to be quite a bit of exaggeration in FFP's Retail Price estimates. So, with that, their statement that they want $700 worth of product in the Mine Cart level looks less enticing.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Again, just dickering over price, not principle. What dollar amount/% difference is acceptable?

The price and the principle of the thing are intertwined, here.

If they had set the Mine Cart EB at a price that was closer to the one they could comfortably offer, then there wouldn't need to be $150 worth of a pricing difference, and there wouldn't be outrage.

Doing it the way they did, and then telling the higher level pledgers that they were subsidizing the lower level ones, but then telling them they should be happy about that is what is causing their issues.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

I don't understand what you mean, so maybe I'm missing something. Aren't all of the add on stretch goals achieved in the kickstarter, or is there some sort of zany facebook likes thing I cant see? Their updates are far from the best, but from update 3, the Colonel Scafford add on was unlocked when the Scafford gang free add on was unlcoked at $100k. So the add on goals are unlocked similar to Reaper's (or most other kickstarters). They dont have a clear stretch goal map however, so its confusing. Transparency would help a ton.

There are effectively two upgrade tracks for the campaign: Stretch Goals, which are added to certain pledge levels ($150+) when a certain funding level is hit, and Add-Ons which are paid extras not tied to the funding total. The Mine Cart pledge gets them all (SG & AO) included so far, without having to pay extra for the Add-Ons. The Outlaw level ($150, which has 200 $145 EB spots, by the way) gets all of the Stretch Goals, but not the Add-Ons without having to pay more. The Outlaw level would be what most would consider to be the "sweet spot" for other KS campaigns.

It is also worth noting that I have not read a single word of complaint about the 200 Early Bird Outlaw level spots.

cincydooley wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
I really hope this game ends up having the cheesy photos on the cards. Those were half the fun.

HELL NO.

"GIT BACK YOU DEVIL!"

Agreed. If they went that route I definitely wouldn't buy.

They said at one point that the cards and game materials will all be artwork for this game, no photos. I am happy about that decision.

highlord tamburlaine wrote:You have to love when people go out of their way to dissuade others from wanting to get in on a game. Such is the nature of the internet.

"Don't buy that! You're not saving any money! I'm trying to help you! I can show you the math! I love the company and all their games but I don't want people spending their money in a way they see fit since others are getting a better deal than me!"

That's all I'm hearing. A shame really.

I think you are grossly misjudging the complaints.

How you choose to use your money is up to you. No one is telling you what to do. Just telling you why it might be foolish.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what their update/answer is.

~Eric

Current Add-On graphics:


~Eric

Aeneades wrote:
CMON now offer no quibble refunds for the entire amount up to 60 days and for the amount less Kickstarter / Amazon fees until it's actually posted out.

Unless it's for Sedition Wars. Then they will repeatedly ignore your emails and PMs until you get fed up and quit trying...

~Eric

The figures aren't that bad but there are some issues I have with them:

The detail on all of them is pretty shallow. Some of the heroes/heroines faces are very shallow, and in the case of the Saloon Girl, almost nonexistent. One of the male heroes also has a distorted face as though the mold was poorly cut or the sprues was pulled too early.

Almost all of the multi-part figures have gaps that require a lot of work to fix or fill. All of the multi-part figures also seem like they were molded with PVC in mind, because of the connecting pieces. They are some form of T-connector instead of flat surfaces or ball joint style connections.

I have personally started looking for alternative hero figures. The monsters are unique enough that I'll fix their issues and be happy with them.

Game components are really good so far. I haven't punched anything out yet but the printing all looks good, and the card stock feels solid. Rulebooks are all nicely done. Cards seem pretty good quality to me as well.

~Eric