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I own Last Night on Earth but don't get it out much anymore. Not because it's a bad game. I can recognize that it does what it's looking to do well. It's just not my style.

Like Barzam said, it's a game that goes well with a few beers. Like this kickstarter, it's easily compared to a B-horror film.

The problem is, it's your classic Strategy vs Tactics game. You can plan your tactics for this turn, but the game is so based on random cards and opposed dice rolls that it's very difficult to plan an overall game strategy.

I'm a bit too competitive of a person to like casual strategy games like this. But I also own and HATE Arkham Horror for similar reasons. Both games are fun if you can handle the randomness and let the cards and dice tell you a story. Both are games where the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

Still, I'll be keeping my eye on this. I'm not nearly as competitive with my RPGs and I think I could trick my brain into treating this game as an RPG. I'm also a total sucker for the Wild West + Magic style that Malifaux seems to have popularized.

I really hope this game ends up having the cheesy photos on the cards. Those were half the fun.

This looks absolutely fantastic, and while the add ons aren't the best of bargains, the $150-level Outlaw pledge is starting to look like an excellent deal and we're only a few days in to the campaign.

Even the pricier 'Mincecarts' will probably be an OK deal in the end.

Maybe.

those earlier ones are INCREDIBLY nice though!

I do wonder what will become of the extras. Not the add ons that you pay for, but the things above and beyond the base game that have been unlocking. If they're not actually included in the base game (duh), that could shift my interest a little.

Currently it's 25 figures (heroes and enemies alike), 30 encounter cards, and a tile pack (with more encounters).

Assuming that's a couple of $10-20 expansions in itself, that could help push me towards "this looks like an okay deal".

And yes, granted, we're still unlocking more here and there as the days go by.

 Barzam wrote:
I really hope this game ends up having the cheesy photos on the cards. Those were half the fun.

HELL NO.

"GIT BACK YOU DEVIL!"

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
I really hope this game ends up having the cheesy photos on the cards. Those were half the fun.

HELL NO.

"GIT BACK YOU DEVIL!"

Agreed. If they went that route I definitely wouldn't buy.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I can't help think how much it looks like Malifaux the Adventure Game.

Deadlands did it first. Or at least before Malifaux.

Looks interesting. I have Last Night on Earth and its a fun quasi tactical game for when the group doesnt feel like something more in depth (Arkham Horror or whatever).

The figures look a little more detailed than LNOE guys. Would be nice to see them painted just to tell.

Definitely gives me Deadlands vibes with the Wild West theme, the rare evil stones used as currency, and the worm mutants. (Although the worm mutants were more the post apocalypse spinoff than original DL)

Barzam wrote:No, it's just Descent set in the wild west. I know my brother is backing it, so I don't need to get in on this one. Plus the setting doesn't interest me all that much. What does interest me though is that I will get to play as an old prospector! Awesome. One thing I'd like to see them do though is post some closeups of the figures and concept art. I can't tell what anything that comes in the base game looks like.

A vital difference between Descent and this game/Warhammer Quest is that no one is stuck being the DM. This means that A: You have something for RPG nights when no one wants to GM. and B: It's easier to get spouses who refuse to play competitive games to come to the table.


Personally, I'll probably wind up pledging outlaw+giant sandworm. Still kind of on the fence due to my brothers hating LNoE's randomness.

Graphics have been updated in the first post again now.

We reached a couple of Stretch goals over night, we now have the free Orphan class and a female version of the Indian Scout. Coming up we have "The Flesh Stalker", a large enemy (A soulless Alien scientist with a need from fresh specimens) and another 15 card Artefact deck.

A lot more information was posted by FFP in the comments last night, thought some people may appreciate this information on classes (especially how the orphan will work):

MB here, I'll give you what classes I have an idea about. Here's a bit on the orphan class, you start as an orphan, looking for vengeance and eventually becoming a hybrid class, taking on a second class of your choice when you grow up. Saloon Girls are generally into dirty fighting and hold out pistols, The Rancher starts with a Rifle and shoots long distances, The Marshall starts with a shotgun and has a badge to flash when things get harried. Even if you're playing all the same character class in your posse it can still feel different. Your character class comes with its own special abilities straight out of the gate, for example the Saloon Girl has a comforting presence that can heal characters adjacent to her at the end of the turn. You also choose from 3 other skills at the start of the game to personalize your hero. You draw a personal item that gives your hero some character straight out of the gate that makes your Saloon Girl different from theirs. In that way, you can play an entire game with everyone playing the same class and still feel different.

 Taarnak wrote:
So, the all-inclusive Mine Cart level went from $325 to $475?! If I wanted in now, I have to pay $150 more than the "Early Birds"? And it will go up from there? feth that.

I can understand putting up a discounted Early Bird style level and limiting that, but stretching out the amount that much seems pretty gakky. Maybe it's just me though, I dunno.

I'll check and see if I can snag an early $325-$375 level pledge because the game looks like something I would love. If I can't though, not likely to pledge.

~Eric

It's not just you. That load of bull is the precise reason why I am not backing it.

The Mine Craft brouhaha is causing more trouble (for FFP) than it's worth. Justin from BGG took a closer look at the MSRP for the add-ons, and finds them overpriced. If you're paying $325 for $700 MSRP which isn't worth $325, you didn't get a deal.

"After examining the page a little I'm becoming less irritated by the mine cart fiasco as it's apparent that the add-ons are all extravagantly priced anyway. The way they've broken up the sets has enabled them to put 25, 30 dollars on what would probably be $40 expansion boxes. Here's an example:

Imagine if the 'Trederra' stuff was a normal, retail expansion box, instead of being on Kickstarter. You would normally expect an expansion for a game like this to retail at something between 40 to 50 dollars max. Getting the two add-ons to date that have been identified with 'Trederra' (the main pack and the 'Z4 Grenadiers') is $47. I think you might reasonably expect to see maybe some new cards and also possibly a new hero or two in such a boxed expansion too. Well, there's add-on cards available for $8 and currently 2 new heroes, priced at 12 and 18 dollars. Now, you don't need to start doing maths to see that, at best, no bargain is up for grabs here and, at worst, this stuff is priced much higher than it would be if it were boxed up in a set at retail. "

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1059538/low-value-mine-cart-level-for-broken-up-add-ons

I think you're better off with the Reaper KS and making up your own stats for the miniatures...

So...

Creator Flying Frog Productions 35 minutes ago

@Michael Monday for the MC tier update. We are still working on an EU shipping solution. We don't know if it will work, as we are already committed to subsidizing shipping costs for International buyers. For example, the Outlaw level alone without any stretch goals will most likely be $60 to ship as an average. We are charging $25.

Of course I'll be traveling for work and then busy in Minneapolis all day Monday but... OK!

You have to love when people go out of their way to dissuade others from wanting to get in on a game. Such is the nature of the internet.

"Don't buy that! You're not saving any money! I'm trying to help you! I can show you the math! I love the company and all their games but I don't want people spending their money in a way they see fit since others are getting a better deal than me!"

That's all I'm hearing. A shame really.

I honestly hope that whatever FFP can cook up makes EVERYONE happy- early birds, later pledgers, people who want Mine Cart pledges, Outlaw pledges, worried Europeans (and with good reason!), people who stumble onto the game in the future... everybody.

Despite the cowboy theme, which I'm not even really a fan of (should I go out of my way to bitch about that somewhere?), there's a lot of cool stuff that's going on with this game. It can only get better!

I don't really think anyone is expressing anything resembling those sentiments.

There's been frustration with some elements of how the campaign is run, there's an understandable bit of concern over the "well, that escalated quickly" effect of the MC tier, and it's not unreasonable to do a little extrapolating, based on what people know of the market, production, and this very company's own standards.

Like, they have the main box listed for $85. And the Outlaw tier has both for $150, a savings of $20!

Except I can find FF games available online for 20% off or more, so even with taxes it's still basically the same price.

But they also have all these add ons!

Sure, right, except where people are pointing out that these add ons are feeling less like 'omg expansion bits!' and more 'Err... did you guys make like 1-2 more expansions and then just slice them into bits and slap arbitrarily large prices on the bits?'

Honestly, this is a good thing. It is the system working as intended. While I have no doubts FFG will deliver a quality product that my friends and I will love, this kind of scrutiny is also what helps bad/fake/scam projects get caught, what keeps backers playing fast and loose with their numbers honest (or at least costs them some funding from the uncertainty), etc.

Are there people in the comments being unreasonably demanding? Sure.

But there's also a lot of people making very reasonable, rational and polite requests, suggestions and giving general feedback.

Yep I agree with ced1106. To me all the add-ons seem overpriced even with the kickstarted discount. So the minecart pledges, even the early ones don't seem that great a deal. :/

Looking at the latest update makes me suddenly much less likely to back this one... $150 for two boxed games + lots of add-ons is a great deal only as long as the miniatures are well made. While the concept art, character renders and minis they've shown so far have been very nice, that Serpent man just has so many lazy elements to it that I'd question every model until I actually saw it in three dimensions. Not even close to $100 quality IMO.

Back on the fence I go...

Yeah, the Trederra thing seems really sketchy to me. I'd expect the extra heroes to be bundled with the Trederra models and other minis to form a third 75 dollar core set, not the Trederra map to be standing out alone as a 40 dollar box.

There's also the fact that "Deluxe Outlaw" doesn't look like that much added value, so I'd rather just stick to Outlaw and buy the options when they hit Miniatures Market for 25 to 30% off MSRP.



While on the topic of Kickstarters, not a minis game but I want to see it succeed:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1964463742/the-mandate

Currently trending for $20,000 short of its goal, and it looks like the game I wanted Mass Effect to be.

$325k is a long way to go, but fyi, trends with 34 days left on the clock of a 60 day campaign are utterly worthless.

Kicktraq provides interesting info, but a lot of it is extrapolated really simplistically in a way that, in my experience, doesn't reflect reality.

The daily backers/funding graphs are neat, but the trends aren't really indicative of anything except "hey, if the project kept going like it did yesterday, this is around where it'd be!"

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

So the issue now is just quibbling over how much of an early bird discount is acceptable and people mad they didnt get it as cheap as someone else did? The retail customers will have it even worse (wont someone think of the retail schlubs?!) Cthulhu Wars offered a similar price break of roughly 30% off ($150 cultist, $110 early bird), and I dont remember people up in arms. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I just dont get the hate the company has been getting in the comments section vs "bummer I didnt get it cheaper".

Retail customers have no business in this discussion. They are not taking a risk with their money, nor paying roughly a year in advance to "support" the project, they have the benefit of seeing reviews and the product in hand before purchasing, and they can find a discount.

If Cthulhu Wars had offered a limited EB for $150, then another one with the same rewards for $300, you would have heard plenty of (justified) complaints.

If FFP had initially offered the Mine Cart pledge EB as $325, limited to 25 backers and then at $375 open to everyone, mine and many others' statement on the matter would have been "Bummer I didn't get it cheaper".

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Probably not many are being camped IMO. Two days in and its already got $233 value added over the $225 Deluxe Outlaw level, so the currently highest price Mine Cart only needs $17 more of add on goals unlocked to make it worth it (of course, assuming you want everything). as the campaign wears on, even the $475 gets to be better , given that they said they expect to unlock enough add ons to bring it up to $700 retail. So get the level which appeals and any add ons you feel are worth it (or wait until retail, where it will be 20-25% off at online discounters). Its not even like the Mine Cart gets anything exclusive that the other levels cant also get, which was my issue with Wyrd's through the breach KS. If you missed those early birds, you couldnt even PAY to get the stuff you missed out on (and I say this as someone who got them).

You are likely right that the lowest MC pledges are going to stay in. Many folks have said in the comments that they are pledging wt the higher ones as placeholders to see if either a lower level comes open, or the higher one becomes a good enough value. These same people say they will either drop down to the $150 level if they intend to stay in or drop to $1, or outright cancel their pledge if they can't get more value. So there is a good bit of "inflation" here, either way.

There have been a few comparisons to other FFP games and comparable games from other manufacturers and there seems to be quite a bit of exaggeration in FFP's Retail Price estimates. So, with that, their statement that they want $700 worth of product in the Mine Cart level looks less enticing.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Again, just dickering over price, not principle. What dollar amount/% difference is acceptable?

The price and the principle of the thing are intertwined, here.

If they had set the Mine Cart EB at a price that was closer to the one they could comfortably offer, then there wouldn't need to be $150 worth of a pricing difference, and there wouldn't be outrage.

Doing it the way they did, and then telling the higher level pledgers that they were subsidizing the lower level ones, but then telling them they should be happy about that is what is causing their issues.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

I don't understand what you mean, so maybe I'm missing something. Aren't all of the add on stretch goals achieved in the kickstarter, or is there some sort of zany facebook likes thing I cant see? Their updates are far from the best, but from update 3, the Colonel Scafford add on was unlocked when the Scafford gang free add on was unlcoked at $100k. So the add on goals are unlocked similar to Reaper's (or most other kickstarters). They dont have a clear stretch goal map however, so its confusing. Transparency would help a ton.

There are effectively two upgrade tracks for the campaign: Stretch Goals, which are added to certain pledge levels ($150+) when a certain funding level is hit, and Add-Ons which are paid extras not tied to the funding total. The Mine Cart pledge gets them all (SG & AO) included so far, without having to pay extra for the Add-Ons. The Outlaw level ($150, which has 200 $145 EB spots, by the way) gets all of the Stretch Goals, but not the Add-Ons without having to pay more. The Outlaw level would be what most would consider to be the "sweet spot" for other KS campaigns.

It is also worth noting that I have not read a single word of complaint about the 200 Early Bird Outlaw level spots.

cincydooley wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
I really hope this game ends up having the cheesy photos on the cards. Those were half the fun.

HELL NO.

"GIT BACK YOU DEVIL!"

Agreed. If they went that route I definitely wouldn't buy.

They said at one point that the cards and game materials will all be artwork for this game, no photos. I am happy about that decision.

highlord tamburlaine wrote:You have to love when people go out of their way to dissuade others from wanting to get in on a game. Such is the nature of the internet.

"Don't buy that! You're not saving any money! I'm trying to help you! I can show you the math! I love the company and all their games but I don't want people spending their money in a way they see fit since others are getting a better deal than me!"

That's all I'm hearing. A shame really.

I think you are grossly misjudging the complaints.

How you choose to use your money is up to you. No one is telling you what to do. Just telling you why it might be foolish.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what their update/answer is.

~Eric

Some new stretch goals were added today including a new type of enemy, a pack mule and a town tile set with rules.

They have also added $25 of credit to the $425 Mine Cart level, $50 to the $450 and $75 to the $475 level. Whilst the mine cart already comes with all unique addons this can be used to get duplicate hero figures, blank cards, terrain, extra dice (shortly), etc. they are moving around some of the upcoming addons to ensure that there are some you would like duplicates of.

While nice, I'm not sure what $475 Level Mine Cart backers would like to spend $75 worth of credit on though.

Can never have enough terrain! They have added additional copies of the game up for $75 to the addons, so if nothing else they can get an extra copy and just ebay if for $50.

Yeah, I'm up for trading for a copy of the base game. Look up "Sam and Max" on BGG for my want and trade list. Send me yours!

I really wish they'd just do an open $400 tier with add ons but no second set of figures. It'd be interesting to see how many of the "OMG $475 is totes reasonable!" fanatics would stick up there. Hell, make it $350-375 and take off the bonus credit too; affordable for those of us wary of tossing over half a grand (after shipping and exchange) on a boardgame. $400'ish is still spicy, but noticeably lighter on the wallet as well.

There's no question my crew continues to lust after this game, but as much as we all love FANG, LNOE and COPE, we're still recovering from the Robotech KS earlier this year.

I suspect one of us will dive on the grenade at the Outlaw tier at least, to snag up the stretch goals (which admittedly do make it vastly more palatable), but it'd be really nice to get in on the add ons affordably, and doing so without the excess baggage that seems to be bogging down the top MC tiers would go a long way.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I can't help think how much it looks like Malifaux the Adventure Game.

Deadlands did it first. Or at least before Malifaux.

Looks interesting. I have Last Night on Earth and its a fun quasi tactical game for when the group doesnt feel like something more in depth (Arkham Horror or whatever).

The figures look a little more detailed than LNOE guys. Would be nice to see them painted just to tell.

This concept has been around for a looooooooong time. Robert E Howard was writing supernatural wild west stories at the same time he was writing Conan and Lovecraft Mythos stories.

In fact, this game appears to be directly inspired by Howard's writing...now I feel like a huge nerd.

Quote for Truth

Howard was given the affectionate nickname "Two-Gun Bob" by virtue of his long explications to Lovecraft about the history of his beloved Southwest, and during the ensuing years he contributed several notable elements to Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos of horror stories (beginning with "The Black Stone", his Mythos stories also included "The Cairn on the Headland", "The Children of the Night" and "The Fire of Asshurbanipal"). He also corresponded with other "Weird Tale" writers such as Clark Ashton Smith, August Derleth, and E. Hoffmann Price.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

jmw23 wrote:
I don't have a dog in the fight, but there's definitely a lot of negative talk over on Boardgamegeek as well. People seem upset at the way the mine cart tiers were structured. As someone who isn't pledging, I can see their point...the feeling that you missed out on the sweet spot and now are getting the exact same thing as everyone else for $150+ more is lousy, and might prevent some pledges.

It is currently preventing me from pledging!

This is a wait-until-it-hits-retail situation for me. I'll endeavor to get a demo game in once the box is on the shelf, and go from there. Maybe if the minis were 28mm...maybe, but that's only because I run my own home brew wild west fantasy/horror miniatures game, and new wild west miniatures are always nice. But 35mm is too big.

And as for "retail" customers "not taking a risk," come on. This project does NOT have to be a Kickstarter. This thing could simply be put on the shelf as a retail product, and Flying Frog would be taking a risk. There's probably not much in terms of savings from this KS project, there's not much in terms of exclusive content. All backers are getting is a jump on retail release. In the process, FFP is likely crapping on its post KS retail sales, as all of the pledges on the KS are sucking sales away from retailers, who may very well be far less inclined to put the game on the shelf. Kickstarter is being overutilized in this industry. There's no real need for customers to be backing projects like this. The only "risk" involved is in getting a product you are not happy with because you paid for it before you had a chance to see it.

It makes sense to do that if the product would not otherwise exist, but that is not the case here. FFP can put out a product without needing to raise funds. In fact, FFP have been working on this game for years. FFP has been investing in the product development for a long time now, and do you really think that they wouldn't attempt to recoup that investment if they did not get funding? That's a laugh.

When I approach Kickstarter, I look for projects that would have great difficulty getting off of the ground any other way. I look for projects that need the funding in order to raise capital that otherwise would be difficult to raise. FFP already raised the capital. FFP has already invested its own money. It does not need mine. If they put out a good product, maybe I will buy it.

weeble1000 wrote:

It makes sense to do that if the product would not otherwise exist, but that is not the case here. FFP can put out a product without needing to raise funds. In fact, FFP have been working on this game for years. FFP has been investing in the product development for a long time now, and do you really think that they wouldn't attempt to recoup that investment if they did not get funding? That's a laugh.

When I approach Kickstarter, I look for projects that would have great difficulty getting off of the ground any other way. I look for projects that need the funding in order to raise capital that otherwise would be difficult to raise. FFP already raised the capital. FFP has already invested its own money. It does not need mine. If they put out a good product, maybe I will buy it.

Just FYI, but FFP have already said they could have gone the non-KS route, a few elements at a time, but that the releases of all the parts of the game would have to be stretched over 5-10 years. Via KS they are able to get the whole game (most of it, anyway) out to the public in one go. Not sure how "appropriate" a use of KS you think that is, but it's definitely not just a question of yes/no regarding this game.

Unless this one gets awesome beyond belief before the end, I can't see myself staying with my $475 Mine Cart and maybe I'll just drop down to Outlaw plus a few choice add-ons.

Maybe!

 Alpharius wrote:
Unless this one gets awesome beyond belief before the end, I can't see myself staying with my $475 Mine Cart and maybe I'll just drop down to Outlaw plus a few choice add-ons.

Maybe!

I'm in for $1 at the moment but as long as the remaining actual sculpts are good enough quality (i.e. similar to the tentacles and characters and better than the crappy serpentman) I'm planning to up to Outlaw - which I think is the best deal. You won't get the ridiculous overall discount that I'm assuming Mine Cart levels will end up with, but IMO the price point is perfect for the two game boxes + unlocked content. All the rest just seems like too much money and too much plastic for a board game (even as cool as it looks).

 Gomez wrote:

Just FYI, but FFP have already said they could have gone the non-KS route, a few elements at a time, but that the releases of all the parts of the game would have to be stretched over 5-10 years. Via KS they are able to get the whole game (most of it, anyway) out to the public in one go. Not sure how "appropriate" a use of KS you think that is, but it's definitely not just a question of yes/no regarding this game.

Yea, they said that. I might be inclined to take that with more than a pinch of salt. But why would a release schedule like that be bad anyway? You release a product, if it sells well, you release an expansion. If that sells well, you release another expansion, etc. If you fund all of the expansions via Kickstarter, whose to say those are going to sell well as a retail release. I suppose that it doesn't really matter at that point because you've paid the development costs. But haven't the development costs already largely been paid? FFP has been working on this stuff, right? For years, right? They have stuff ready to show in stretch goals, right?

If it is finished and is awesome, okay, fine, but why do you need Kickstarter? If it isn't finished, you are supporting a huge range of expansions that could very well suck, for a game that you have never played, all so that FFP can allegedly shorten its release schedule? What happens if the expansions suck? Now you are left holding the bag, and what did you get out of it?

If the game would not exist because FFP does not have the ability to raise capital in a traditional manner, then what you get is the chance to see this idea, this project, become a reality. That is what you would be paying for, and that is really what Kickstarter is designed to support. In that case, if the product sucks, okay fine. You took a risk because you wanted to see the project come to life and you were hoping it would be great. If it is going to exist anyway...come on, really? Let FFP go and get a loan, put up their own money, take their own risks, and compete in a market. FFP doesn't need my money, and doesn't need yours.

If you think paying out to shove 5 years of releases into 2 years waiting for your pledge rewards, that's fine. That's just not a choice I would make.

FFP really stepped on their d*** with this. It is pretty clear that this is just a pre order Kickstarter. Combine that with the other poster demonstrating rather convincingly that the minecart add on are really just a broken up expansion pack, which makes the $475 minecart levels even more of a rip off.

What I wonder is what is going to happen to all the figures and such that are being unlocked for The Outlaw level. How will these be sold at retail?