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I have been wanting to use my Lizards without a Slann since I started playing them a few months ago, The problem is with Magic as deadly as it is, can you be competitive without one? In any game above 1200 points my list always starts with a lvl 4 caster, does not matter what army I am playing, It is sort of a requirement for any army in my opinion, that being said, I am thinking Lizards might be an army you can get away without the Slann now. Just not sure. I am not talking about subbing Tetoeko in either, though I love him one of the best Special Characters in all the books. I really need to get away from relying on him as a back up.

What do you all think?

I think it's certainly possible to do so. Some armies are going to have a much rougher time of it, but I think it's very reasonable to skip out on the lvl 4. The biggest problem you will face without him, though, will be magic defense because most other people will have a lvl 4. For that reason, I would probably almost always take a lvl 1/2 with D scroll

These are some of the armies that I think have a little easier time without a lvl 4 than the others (though I'm sure someone will call me out on this list):

Ogres
Lizards
WoC
Dark Elves

Don't get me wrong, even these armies are probably stronger with a lvl 4, but I think that they can do quite well without one.

It's really a +4 dispeller that is important. If you have a dispel scroll and either a +2 wiz or multiple low level wiz (and thus can hopefully channel some dispel dice) you can stop the enemy from lolling all over you during the magic phase.

Stuff will get through, but you can hopefully balance it out with more combat troops. It's when the enemy doesn't have to IF spells and can throw minimum dice that they are real force multipliers. Having an extra combat lord < the enemy having 2 more spells every single round.

 spyguyyoda wrote:
I think it's certainly possible to do so. Some armies are going to have a much rougher time of it, but I think it's very reasonable to skip out on the lvl 4. The biggest problem you will face without him, though, will be magic defense because most other people will have a lvl 4. For that reason, I would probably almost always take a lvl 1/2 with D scroll

These are some of the armies that I think have a little easier time without a lvl 4 than the others (though I'm sure someone will call me out on this list):

Ogres
Lizards
WoC
Dark Elves

Don't get me wrong, even these armies are probably stronger with a lvl 4, but I think that they can do quite well without one.

Not taking issue with your list but could you elaborate on why you picked those armies? I'm just starting 8th so would appreciate the insight.

You will be put at a big disadvantage, since your opponent is likely bringing a level 4. Taking a few low level casters, one with a scroll, and any other dispel shenanigans your army has will help though. You just have to be prepared that your enemy is going to get off an extra spell (or maybe two) a turn, and so you need to build your army list accordingly.

I think it depends on what Lore your opponent is running as well. If he's got loads of buffs and hexes, you're in for a tough time. You may have more combat troops, but that doesn't help if you can't stop the enemy getting Okkams off every turn.

If you want a game without Lvl4s, arrange a game with a friend and say that you can't take Lord level casters (or indeed any casters). You get your wizard-less game and it's even, as your opponent is on the same restriction as you are. Makes it much more interesting.

I have taken plenty of lists with no Lv4 (and NO MAGIC at all...) to the table in 8th edition and it really is not that bad.

If you take 1-2 low level wizards with dispel scroll/ channeling staff you will probably be able to stop 1-2 spells per phase (with high winds roll). The key is to use your dispel dice to stop that ONE big spell your opponent really wants to get off. Prioritize your dispel dice, in other words.

The second part of the plan is to use the 250+ points liberated by the exclusion of a lv4 caster to make sure you can be effective. For lizards... maybe use rippers to target enemy wizards early on. Use flying characters, Scar Vet Cowboys, and other forms of hard hitting saturation.

Replacing magic with chaff and multiple threats is a viable strategy and only the number 6 spells of doom will really hamper your attempt at this tactic.

Good luck
Hermit

You can absolutely be competitive without a lvl 4, even without magic
it's easier when you can have several dispell items (Lizards, Brets, stunties obviously ...)
Of course you're going to suffer more during the magic phase, but you'll be saving around 300 points usually (it's the cost of most lvl 4s after magic tiems) that you'll be able to use in another block or some juicy upgrades

Depending on your army, you might need a MR item or two to protect from some nasties on key units

 Eldarain wrote:

 spyguyyoda wrote:
I think it's certainly possible to do so. Some armies are going to have a much rougher time of it, but I think it's very reasonable to skip out on the lvl 4. The biggest problem you will face without him, though, will be magic defense because most other people will have a lvl 4. For that reason, I would probably almost always take a lvl 1/2 with D scroll

These are some of the armies that I think have a little easier time without a lvl 4 than the others (though I'm sure someone will call me out on this list):

Ogres
Lizards
WoC
Dark Elves

Don't get me wrong, even these armies are probably stronger with a lvl 4, but I think that they can do quite well without one.

Not taking issue with your list but could you elaborate on why you picked those armies? I'm just starting 8th so would appreciate the insight.

Sure! It goes back to phase concept theory. Ok, so no one actually calls it that. What I mean is that there are four primary phases in the game; Movement, Magic, Shooting, and Combat. (I consider deployment to be the fifth phase; many games are lost in deployment) In order for your army to be successful, you have to be able to dominate at least one phase of the game. If you can dominate all the phases, then you're sitting pretty.

For these armies, they are so strong in at least one other phase of the game, that losing their ability to be strong in the Magic phase allows them to still be effective (IMO).

Ogres are fast and have good chaff/redirectors in trapper gnoblars and sabretusks. Thus, they can do well in the movement phase. They have cannons that can move and still shoot and leadbelchers, so they can do well in the shooting phase. As far as combat? They're ogres.

WoC have good chaff/redirectors in hounds and marauder cavalry. They're only M4 though, so they're only ok at the movement phase, and they have no shooting to speak of. However, they are really good at combat, even without any support. It's kind of their thing.

Lizards are again slow, but they have decent shooting with skink blowpipes and such. Where they shine is in combat if you're using Saurus. They're almost as good at combat as WoC.

DEs are on the list because the are relatively fast (M5), and have what I consider to be the two best fast cav units in the game in Dark Riders and Warlocks. Warlocks are the This makes it easy for them to do well in the movement phase. They can do quite well in the shooting phase with their repeater crossbows. If you really wanted to, you could have every non-character model in your army armed with a ranged weapon. They also have bolt throwers. So, they can do very well at shooting. They are also very good in combat because they have ASF and good weapon skill. They're not quite up to the same level at combat as the other three armies on this list, but they are still very good.

Daemons can do decently without a Lv4 simply because they can spam 10-man Horror units w/Tzheralds for added & slightly better channeling, and because Beasts of Nurgle exist.

It's quite possible between the various Heralds and your min/maxed Horrors to still generate 4-6+ Channeling rolls, (most of which re-roll 1's), and thus even up the dice piles a bit more than most opponent's are normally used to facing off against.
You simply accept that those damage spells will never get countered, as your dice will be saved-up for trying to stop Hexes/Augments from ruining your day.

One of the main variants of The One List trades out the Greater Daemon for more pts to spend on Beasts/Hounds/Drones or else to run double Nurgle Princes if you're feeling really adventurous.

 spyguyyoda wrote:
. Warlocks are the

But don't forget: Warlocks are also Magic casters.

Now, a lot of people are saying that you can spend the 300 saved by not taking a level 4 on other things. Now, that's true, but rarely have you the opportunity to take something with that 300 points that is going to be more effective than a Level 4 Wizard and that you haven't already got. As a DE and HE player, I could buy tons of stuff with 300 points, but the ability to fairly easily control the Magic Phase and get off a couple of spells a turn that will make my units really deadly, is much more appealing. As for the second point, as an OnG player, I could spend the points I would've spent on a Level 4 on a trio of Doom Divers but, chances are, I've already got a trio of Doom Divers in my list.

I still think though, that this is a fairly vague question that largely depends on your definition of "competitive". Sure, I think every army can function, without magic, at a competitive level. However, there are very few builds that, without Magic, will do well at a competitive level.

WoC can manage. They're so brutal in combat to begin with and pretty quick with the right build anyway. As said previously, if you can dominate 2 phases, you're in pretty good shape. Just go for a blitzkrieg style army with chariots and skullcrushers and chimeras and the like to try and get into combat as quickly as possible.

That's part of why they are

Please note that we're not talking about taking NO magic, we're talking about not taking a lvl 4.

But you are entirely correct that adding a lvl 4 to an already solid list will be a much greater force multiplier than whatever you are leaving out.

To be quite honest I've seen people do just fine with a pair of Level 2's. Lizards high elves both do just fine in my opinion.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Daemons can do decently without a Lv4 simply because they can spam 10-man Horror units w/Tzheralds for added & slightly better channeling, and because Beasts of Nurgle exist.

It's quite possible between the various Heralds and your min/maxed Horrors to still generate 4-6+ Channeling rolls, (most of which re-roll 1's), and thus even up the dice piles a bit more than most opponent's are normally used to facing off against.
You simply accept that those damage spells will never get countered, as your dice will be saved-up for trying to stop Hexes/Augments from ruining your day.

One of the main variants of The One List trades out the Greater Daemon for more pts to spend on Beasts/Hounds/Drones or else to run double Nurgle Princes if you're feeling really adventurous.

I think Daemons have to be, with lvl 4 casters for daemons costing min around 400pts it is a lot of points to invest in cannon fodder half the time. I recently run a 2k pt list in a small tourny with just 2 lvl 2 casters. In the first game they didnt do much due to opposing lvl 4 and dispeal scroll, next game I got the lvl4 on disc with the skull cannon and last game I managed to push a few spells through. It was not ideal and I was half tempted to drop the lvl's on the heralds but in the end it saved my bacon having a 3+ regen on most of my army .

Last game I ran a Bloodthirster to good measure, I did have the bloodthrone and next time I run it I will put the mr2 locus on it to give me a 3+ ward against Magic.

I have done OK with my Ogres in the past only using a level 2 butcher and maybe a firebelly. The butcher usually carries a dispel scroll and a magic weapon and the firebelly normally has something like a hellheart.

Sure you won't dominate the magic phase against a level 4 but you do OK. Plus it gives you points for a Tyrant or more hitty units. IMO Ogres aren't a hugely strong magic army anyway and should focus on their strengths, namely hitting stuff until it doesn't get up again.

Also as a further note bring a feedback scroll it can put a couple wounds on a lvl 4 and put your opponent on the back foot. Hellheart also works like this.

 captain collius wrote:
Also as a further note bring a feedback scroll it can put a couple wounds on a lvl 4 and put your opponent on the back foot. Hellheart also works like this.

*sigh* I wish I actually allowed to take a scroll of some type.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also as a further note bring a feedback scroll it can put a couple wounds on a lvl 4 and put your opponent on the back foot. Hellheart also works like this.

*sigh* I wish I actually allowed to take a scroll of some type.

True demons not being able to take a scroll makes them less viable for this but an Extremely careful player can make it work.

 captain collius wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also as a further note bring a feedback scroll it can put a couple wounds on a lvl 4 and put your opponent on the back foot. Hellheart also works like this.

*sigh* I wish I actually allowed to take a scroll of some type.

True demons not being able to take a scroll makes them less viable for this but an Extremely careful player can make it work.

Hence why taking a pair of 10 man Horrors is so popular... 130pts for what is basically a 10-wound wizard is a steal, plus they grow decently fast if you get the right spell on them and have a slightly better chance at channeling an additional Power/Dispel dice.
It's quite possible for an average Daemon army, (re: the Nurgle one), to be throwing 6-8 channels per phase, half of which will re-roll 1's.

Being that they'll always be sitting back somewhat, they're also a cheaper source of gaining an additional banner or two for Blood & Glory.