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I am getting tired of people stateing that elves base Toughness is somehow a massive disadvantage, usually when I am playing against them and getting mullered by a 1000pts character bunker/brick fighting in extra ranks with ASF, which they get "Because elves".

Elf toughness Is 3. The base line. The average from which we draw our relative conclusions to how tough something is. A human guy is Toughness 3. Said human guy isnt born with always strikes first. This makes an elf better, as they are equal in most ways, and better in others. This is a clear fact, and is right freaking there in the rulebook

Elves will also almost always at least have acces to light armor and a shield or better. This makes them as well armored as most of the games rank and file. Unless you play wood elves, where toughness 3 and bad armor are the least of your problems.

Note that im not bitching about Warhammer Armies; High/dark elves. Just the bull gak that gets spewed when defending them. Complain about how points intensive they can be and then we can have a debate as to how good the book is. That makes sense, and is a thing you can really get sunk into debate wise. Claiming that they suck because they have the same baseline as an empire swordsman witth better Initative and a slew of beneficial special rules is stupid.

Yikes! Show me on the miniature where the bad elf touched you.

As to your post, you've answered your own question. They pay more (many in most cases) points for each T3 model making the army as a whole far less tough than an equal points of human/skaven etc.

As I said, I dont deny the cost alot of points. So do alot of other units across multiple books that also have t3.

You can still field sizable units of the nastier units in the book (Such as white lions) within a standard game, and that unit will shred most of what it touches. No weakness to be found there (Unless something like dwellers hits you. Then you might lose 50% of the unit)

The points you pay seems to be to cover the cost of all those nifty elf rules (Better Init, Extra ranks worth of funtime murder, Always strikes first).

To be honest, from a gameplay perspective I have always disliked High Elves. I think they have an awesome look, I like their fluff, and I don't think they are overpowered BUT they have always felt like a crappy army with some of the best special rules in the BRB (ASF) jerryrigged to them like some rediculous crutch.

With that out of the way White Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon are indeed very scary, but they are far from the best unit in the game. Ogre Kingdoms Gutstar, or Savage Orc Big Uns with the Lucky Shrunken Head will out fight them. 18 Trolls, Nurgle Warriors with Halbreds. Sure the Lion Cloak protects them well from ranged fire, but Helblaster Volley Guns, Organ Guns, and Doom Divers can all carve bloody chunks out of white lions.

Also as a Bretonnian and Greenskin Player myself, I will say that toughness 3 is really fragile. The difference is that while I don't mind losing huge chunks of Men at Arms or Goblins, High Elves cannot afford to take those kinds of casualties.

High Elves as a whole are terrified of Warmachines. If you can protect your stone throwers from their flyers, you can blast huge chunks out of their army, and hurt them far more severley with each shot than an equivalent Skaven, Goblin, or Human army.

High Elves still have some pretty silly resilience when you look at 2+ save Core options, stackable Ward saves and the two single best magic items in the entire game. They're not hurting at all, and that's before you even look at their baseline stats which are all above average except for S/T and then add in ASF & Martial Prowess to top it off.
Their sky high initiative alone makes them practically immune to the game's two most fear insta-kill spells - Pit & P.Sun. Only Slaanesh Daemons enjoy that kind of love as well.

Their costs aren't nearly as heinous as a lot of HE players like to claim. Daemonic Core is more expensive and overall is either poo, or else has very limited ways to make use of it outside of Plaguebearers.
Chaos Warriors may be superior, but they pay for it and are slower. The main thing making their Core amazing are those chariots which Elves really hate.
Ogres are very pts-heavy and while they're probably the most resilient in terms of pure damage taken, Pit/P.Sun eat the alive. (and Shadow/Death are still the top lores most will gravitate towards when it's an option)
All other Core is miles below Elves. (except woodies, but they don't actually count as they're 2 entire editions behind the times!)

When it comes to their main Special blocks, Caucasian Lions & Phoenix Guard (who almost always carry the Razor Banner for a -2 to saves) are again among the best in the game for their cost. WL's are also S4 meaning Dwellers is much less of a threat and their Lion Cloaks help to mitigate their natural weakness to war machines.
PG's built-in 4++ is capable of easily being boosted to a 3++ (hello Ring of Fury), at which point they're easily capable of tarpitting most Deathstars.

The Super Skillful Banner is easily the biggest crutch currently in the game, and when combined alongside the Everqueen and her own banner, the game can become very pointless. (take Light and start popping off those area effect buffs with a +8 to-cast bonus = lame)


Built right, High Elves are the game's most resilient army and will play the pts denial like nobody's business between the Everb****/Averlorn banner + BotWD WL's, Silverhelm & Reaver core, PG w/Razorbanner, Bolters + Frostchickens.

People say elves are fragile because they are.

Elves are as squishy as they come for the point cost.

the difference is that they also have higher damage output. Great Weapons at initiative, extra rank of attacks, good magic to buff them up even further, etc...

So overall its still a solid book, with the weakness that they have models that are squishy relative to damage output. That's why an Elf doesn't cost as much as a Warrior or an Ogre, who have both durability and damage output.

Okay now lets review what high elf core (which is the fragile part ) is like

High elf spearmen t3 5+ save 9 pts
Seaguard t3 5+ save 13pts
Archers 10pts t3
Reavers t3 5+ save 17 Pts (fast cav so they have a lot more value)
Silver Helms t3 2+ save 23 pts

All of the points about stackable wards and BoTWD have some validity but unless you build your army around stacking those protections .... Those arguments become moot.

People really do need to stop complaining about how fragile Elves are. All the complaints about S3 T3, When you break it down, the majority of armies are actually based around S3 T3. All Stats will be an Average of what they have. Just because more people seem to play one or two of the armies does not mean that it is the norm, I am fairly sure that the list below this to be the opposite, 9 of the 13 armies are based around S3 T3 as a base.

T4 armies:
Dwarfs S3 T4 I2, Ogres T4 T4 I2, Beast Men S3.5 T4 I3, Warriors: S4 T4 I5

Somewhere in the middle
I had Lizards up in t4, but really they could be a S4 T4 army or they could be a t3 t2 or somewhere in the middle. We are still learning what they want to be with the new book.
O&G They are hard to place cause the Very To much

T3 Armies:

Brets S3 T3 I3, TK S3 T3 I2, Empire, S3 T3 I3, HE S3 T3 I5, DE S3 T3 I5, WE S3 T3 I5 Skaven S3 T3.5 I4, VC T3 T3.25 I3, *Deamons,

• I do not have the new Deamons book with me so I am not sure what their new stats are. But based on the old one. They are a T3 army.

When most talk about elves in terms of "toughness", it isn't actually a debate on their actual T value, which is (as has been said) just average. The toughness debate comes down to their resilience as an army, and on the front, they are still the glass cannons of the warhammer world.

A competent general will know this, and either account for the fact with more bodies (a-la 50+ spearmen horde), or negate it with augments if playing defensive (life for toughness and regrowth, high for wards, light for giggles, banners), or even the playing field if offensive (shadow and death). As such, the army is still one of the most reliant on magic in the game to have any sort of staying power. Take out a high elf caster early on, and see how much easier it is to crumble his units.

As for the elite of the army, look...I'm not going to tell you how to fight your battles, but if you feel your e-peen is measured only by your ability to annihilate some of the strongest, most resilient units in the game, then by all means ignore the other expensive and worthless troops on the field

Archers, spearmen, or cavalry...they are going to comprise at least 25% of his points, they are going to be on the field, and they are going to fall to a stiff breeze, magic or no magic.

 Aipoch wrote:
When most talk about elves in terms of "toughness", it isn't actually a debate on their actual T value, which is (as has been said) just average. The toughness debate comes down to their resilience as an army, and on the front, they are still the glass cannons of the warhammer world.

A competent general will know this, and either account for the fact with more bodies (a-la 50+ spearmen horde), or negate it with augments if playing defensive (life for toughness and regrowth, high for wards, light for giggles, banners), or even the playing field if offensive (shadow and death). As such, the army is still one of the most reliant on magic in the game to have any sort of staying power. Take out a high elf caster early on, and see how much easier it is to crumble his units.

And luckily for them, High Elves have 3 insanely good magic items in the Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury & Warddragon Banner to help with their magical reliance, on top of Alarielle (plus her own banner) who is easily tied with Eppi as being the best special character in the game.

BoH lends added dominance as you can afford to throw fewer dice at each spell attempt, meaning you'll spam more spells and stretch everyone but Dwarfs to the limit of their Dispel pool.

BotWD basically makes one entire unit (and all attached characters) all but immune to the enemy's magic phase, and even your own miscast damage. Dwellers, 13th, B.Horror & Final Trans are the only things to really be wary of.

RoF will always be taken in a unit that already has a basic ward save and used to help boost it by +1 for a turn. Makes Phoenix Guard insane, and turns DP's into 2+/5++ heavy cav.
Or else it will be in Alarielle's or an Anointed's unit to boost their unit-wide ward save.

Banner of Averlorn is silly good with Life or Light as you can bubble effect spells off the banner unit and area-cast with +8!

 Aipoch wrote:
As for the elite of the army, look...I'm not going to tell you how to fight your battles, but if you feel your e-peen is measured only by your ability to annihilate some of the strongest, most resilient units in the game, then by all means ignore the other expensive and worthless troops on the field

Archers, spearmen, or cavalry...they are going to comprise at least 25% of his points, they are going to be on the field, and they are going to fall to a stiff breeze, magic or no magic.

I don't understand how HE players can claim that 2+ cav is squishy, when it's got elven stats along with ASF + Martial Prowess and movement that makes Brettonians cry...
For feth's sake, 'Helms are only a single point more expensive than Empire Knightly Orders and trade a 1+ save for being a freaking elf!

When done with the specific aim to points-deny and play for resilience, HE's are only barely behind Nurgle Daemons. (Daemons win it because of Beasts & the 'immortal Epi' trick)

There are really only three armys that do not require finesse to win the mogority of there games. Other than Ogres and Warriors, who can march head on into just about any unit and put on a whooping, and Dwarves who sit back shoot and then let you charge them, All the other armies require you to pick your combats wisely. All armies require you to build around a concept. At least if you want to win consistently. The trick is learning what concept with which army works best for you. Some armies fall into cookie cutters more than others, Brets will be mostly mounted, Ogres will be mostly MC, Dwarves will shoot you. ETC. Other Armies, like Empire and Elves need to think more about how they will work together with other armies. I have played against Elves and both handed them a crushing defeat, only to turn right around and been crushed, because as you learn the army you can make combos work in your favor. It is less about how fragile they are, and more about how they are used. If you do not put things in the right place at the right time, even Ogres and Warriors can become fragile. I look at it this way.

Easiest armies to learn to win with
Ogres, Warriors, Dwarves (could change with new book), Daemons, Beastmen (Hard to win, but easy to learn there best options)

Middle of the Road
HIgh/Dark Elves, Empire, Vamps, Skaven.

Hardest.
Brets, Wood Elves, tomb Kings.

Their sense of frailty comes from their point cost. Sure if they were as cheap as other T3 army models other's are comparing them to, I could understand the argument. However, with an elf army, each loss is much more significant. Compare skaven to say a high elf army. Both T3, both with the ability to take light armor and a shield, both with an equal chance to die to shooting. If that skaven horde takes 10 casualties to shooting, not nearly as big a deal as 10 elf losses.

They make up for it with their special rules, but the reality is, elf armies get fewer models on the table compared to other T3 armies, so they require more finesse. Often where you hear the term glass cannon.

Sure, elves are T3 with a 5+, like many other units in the game. But those units are almost always more numerous than their Elven counterparts because they're so much cheaper.

Sure, Elves have ASF and Martial/Murderous prowess, but that's going to do absolutely nothing when they get hit by a volley of arrows.

Sure, Elves can quite easily buff themselves with Magic, but those kinds of buffs will make anything durable, so it's irrelevant.

cawizkid wrote:


Easiest armies to learn to win with
Ogres, Warriors, Dwarves (could change with new book), Daemons, Beastmen (Hard to win, but easy to learn there best options)

Middle of the Road
HIgh/Dark Elves, Empire, Vamps, Skaven.

Hardest.
Brets, Wood Elves, tomb Kings.

Beastmen are easy to "learn" because they only have a handful of options that are playable... that being said, they are not an easy army to win with in anyway. Dwarfs are the same, they have been dumbed down by the current play field and their options, but they consistently lose to many armies.

High Elves are less forgiving than say, WoC, but they (and the new DE) seem to be powerful enough in their own right to deal a lot of damage without too much rehearsal/ tactical forethought...

Elves are T3, AS 5+ for infantry... Please show me an army list that does not minimize this weakness with 2+ AS core cavalry or intense ward saves across the board. I agree with everyone in here that has said "elves are really not squishy" and I PLAY High Elves!

As someone who plays all elf varieties, I can say that elves are about as fragile as halberdiers. Which is horrifically fragile. T3 with no armour will always be fragile. And yes 2+ cab can mitigate that to a degree, but in a group of books whose best choices are on foot , the fragility will never be erased.

I feel the Elves to be fragile as well, and that's a good thing
That's the spirit of the army itself, quick, deadly but fragile (indeed mitigated by their killing power)
If you want stout and hardy, play Dwarfs

riburn3 wrote:
Their sense of frailty comes from their point cost. Sure if they were as cheap as other T3 army models other's are comparing them to, I could understand the argument. However, with an elf army, each loss is much more significant. Compare skaven to say a high elf army. Both T3, both with the ability to take light armor and a shield, both with an equal chance to die to shooting. If that skaven horde takes 10 casualties to shooting, not nearly as big a deal as 10 elf losses.

They make up for it with their special rules, but the reality is, elf armies get fewer models on the table compared to other T3 armies, so they require more finesse. Often where you hear the term glass cannon.

Daemons would to have word about being "the expensive T3 army."

Daemonettes & Bloodletters cost more than Spearelves and get absolutely murdered by them. Their 5++ is no better to S3 shooting than the elves own 5+ save and is only marginally better vs. S4 shooting.
Slaany/Tzeentch Heralds & Seekers are also only T3. And while the rest of the non-Nurgle stuff gets T4, outside of two units it's still pretty much just naked T4 that relies purely on a 5++.

And while Elven characters tend to be costly, at least they come with very good protection for that cost. Heralds for example get to pay 50pts for a 16% chance at getting an Armour of Silvered Steel equivalent for any kind of real protection.
They may be able to tackle an Elf wizard, but they're an absolute joke when comparing them to any of the fighty versions.

Only Nurgle has any kind of decent resilience, hence why those units are so popular.

5++ all across the board is very, very tough, especially in the current high AS/high Strength meta
Daemons aren't weak, stop bringing everything back to them
Thanks

TanKoL wrote:
5++ all across the board is very, very tough, especially in the current high AS/high Strength meta
Daemons aren't weak, stop bringing everything back to them
Thanks

Sorry for pointing out that there's actually units who are still T3 with poor saves that cost more than their basic elven equivalents.

5++ is fairly 'meh' overall and is still vastly inferior when it comes to comparing characters. It gains nothing at all vs. S3 and lower, is only marginally more effective vs. S4 and only becomes 'good' when facing S5+. (assuming you're comparing to the basic 5+ armour most T3 infantry sport)
It's not like it's getting combo'd with 2+ or 1+ saves anymore either, which guess what, elves can actually do!

High Elves especially can have some fun flipping the bird at cannons or other low attack/high strength models for example by combining the Charmed Shield + Golden Crown. That's 2 almost guaranteed auto-saves.

High Elves are not really worse off overall than pretty much everyone bar WoC who can combine some truly obnoxious items with 1+ saves. Between 2+ save Core, BotWD, Book of Hoeth, stackable ward saves, Ring of Fury, Alarielle (and her banner), Phoenix Guard, Anointed and/or access to all 8 magic lores, they are very much the resilient elf army.
A predominantly all-cav HE army for example will be mainly 2+ saves, high movement and readily supported by the likes of Beast magic and Frosties. That's not fragile at all.

Dark Elves & Wood Elves especially can at least claim to be a 'fragile' army alongside the likes of Slaanesh or Tzeentch Daemons.
High Elves can just stop whining about being "only" T3.

Experiment 626 wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
Their sense of frailty comes from their point cost. Sure if they were as cheap as other T3 army models other's are comparing them to, I could understand the argument. However, with an elf army, each loss is much more significant. Compare skaven to say a high elf army. Both T3, both with the ability to take light armor and a shield, both with an equal chance to die to shooting. If that skaven horde takes 10 casualties to shooting, not nearly as big a deal as 10 elf losses.

They make up for it with their special rules, but the reality is, elf armies get fewer models on the table compared to other T3 armies, so they require more finesse. Often where you hear the term glass cannon.

Daemons would to have word about being "the expensive T3 army."

Daemonettes & Bloodletters cost more than Spearelves and get absolutely murdered by them. Their 5++ is no better to S3 shooting than the elves own 5+ save and is only marginally better vs. S4 shooting.
Slaany/Tzeentch Heralds & Seekers are also only T3. And while the rest of the non-Nurgle stuff gets T4, outside of two units it's still pretty much just naked T4 that relies purely on a 5++.

And while Elven characters tend to be costly, at least they come with very good protection for that cost. Heralds for example get to pay 50pts for a 16% chance at getting an Armour of Silvered Steel equivalent for any kind of real protection.
They may be able to tackle an Elf wizard, but they're an absolute joke when comparing them to any of the fighty versions.

Only Nurgle has any kind of decent resilience, hence why those units are so popular.

You noted the difference in your own post. Deamons can at least field a core unit that is T4. Elves cannot. I see your point but your argument actualy does you a disservice.

Maybe it is because Elves and Dwarves are the armies I play against most, but elves feel fragile in cc. Laughable armdour, usually wounding them on 2s (Halberd warriors) and they have a lot of weak attacks, so don't do many wounds. I think elves are pretty fragile.

Experiment 626 wrote:

A predominantly all-cav HE army for example will be mainly 2+ saves, high movement and readily supported by the likes of Beast magic and Frosties. That's not fragile at all.

No its not. Thats a list that is specifically tailored to be durable. Every army can do this to some extent. Struggling to really see the point of this thread to be honest...

riburn3 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
Their sense of frailty comes from their point cost. Sure if they were as cheap as other T3 army models other's are comparing them to, I could understand the argument. However, with an elf army, each loss is much more significant. Compare skaven to say a high elf army. Both T3, both with the ability to take light armor and a shield, both with an equal chance to die to shooting. If that skaven horde takes 10 casualties to shooting, not nearly as big a deal as 10 elf losses.

They make up for it with their special rules, but the reality is, elf armies get fewer models on the table compared to other T3 armies, so they require more finesse. Often where you hear the term glass cannon.

Daemons would to have word about being "the expensive T3 army."

Daemonettes & Bloodletters cost more than Spearelves and get absolutely murdered by them. Their 5++ is no better to S3 shooting than the elves own 5+ save and is only marginally better vs. S4 shooting.
Slaany/Tzeentch Heralds & Seekers are also only T3. And while the rest of the non-Nurgle stuff gets T4, outside of two units it's still pretty much just naked T4 that relies purely on a 5++.

And while Elven characters tend to be costly, at least they come with very good protection for that cost. Heralds for example get to pay 50pts for a 16% chance at getting an Armour of Silvered Steel equivalent for any kind of real protection.
They may be able to tackle an Elf wizard, but they're an absolute joke when comparing them to any of the fighty versions.

Only Nurgle has any kind of decent resilience, hence why those units are so popular.

You noted the difference in your own post. Deamons can at least field a core unit that is T4. Elves cannot. I see your point but your argument actualy does you a disservice.

T4/5++ is not nearly as resilient as T3/2+ is.

Vs. S3 & S4, the 'Bearers suffer fewer wounds but pass fewer saves.
Vs. S5, the 'Bearers are starting to really bleed, while despite being wounded on a 2+ the elves still have a 4+ save
They become equal once you start taking S6 hits, and the 'Bearers only finally gain a real advantage once they start getting hit with S7+.

Those Silverhelms can also happily operate on their own, while the 'Bearers require the addition of another 135+ pts character to gain their Regen ability & Ld8, as well as being far more concerned about the unit erasing spells than the Silverhelms are.

Glass hammer.

Sums up the High Elves perfectly. The do suffer from fragility, but they balance out with their solid ability to kick you in the junk, repeatedly.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Daemons would to have word about being "the expensive T3 army."

Daemonettes & Bloodletters cost more than Spearelves and get absolutely murdered by them. Their 5++ is no better to S3 shooting than the elves own 5+ save and is only marginally better vs. S4 shooting

His basic troops can bounce a cannon or stone-thrower shot 1/3 of the time and he complains his troops are underdefended against shooting...

 Vulcan wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Daemons would to have word about being "the expensive T3 army."

Daemonettes & Bloodletters cost more than Spearelves and get absolutely murdered by them. Their 5++ is no better to S3 shooting than the elves own 5+ save and is only marginally better vs. S4 shooting

His basic troops can bounce a cannon or stone-thrower shot 1/3 of the time and he complains his troops are underdefended against shooting...

I'll remember to tip my pity hat next time those daemons are still getting their 5++ against my Swordmasters.