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I am really hoping the new codex will bring Genestealers back into the forefront with Tyranid armies again.

If I were to wish list a new rule set it would be this:

First of all I think all Tyranids should have this universal rule:

Ravenous advance:
All Tyranids can run and assault in the same turn, additionally all Tyranids gain +1 to their cover save against overwatch shots (so 6+ in open terrain)

As for Genestealers/Broodlords I would keep the same stats, cost and upgrade costs and rules but I would add these three new rules:

Hunter-Hunted:
Genestealers/Broodlords gain Counter Attack when in terrain.

Ambush predator:
Genestealers/Broodlords only suffer an initiative penalty of -1 for assaulting into terrain and are immune to defense grenades

Swift and Silent:
Genestealers/Broodlords have Stealth

What do you think? Would this work well or is it overpowered or underwhelming?

WAAAAAAY OP.

I love Genestealers too! I'm trying to get them to work in 6th, and while moderately successful, definitely not for competitive play.

The reason it's way OP is because not only are you giving them the ability to assault up to 24" away, but they will barely be effected by terrain. They are already I 6, so they will be striking before any other units (in terrain) AND they'll have a 4+ cover save in terrain?

Sounds like what stealers are in the fluff...

Ruining everybody's fun all the time.

roxor08 wrote:
WAAAAAAY OP.

I love Genestealers too! I'm trying to get them to work in 6th, and while moderately successful, definitely not for competitive play.

The reason it's way OP is because not only are you giving them the ability to assault up to 24" away, but they will barely be effected by terrain. They are already I 6, so they will be striking before any other units (in terrain) AND they'll have a 4+ cover save in terrain?

I don’t think it is too extreme. Their assault range would be at most comparable to an Assault Marine , who has frag grenades so they can avoid the effects of terrain too and has a +3 save both in and out of cover. Maybe jump the price 15, but I don’t think it is unreasonable for 14 points in the world of 6th edition codices.

Zookie wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
WAAAAAAY OP.

I love Genestealers too! I'm trying to get them to work in 6th, and while moderately successful, definitely not for competitive play.

The reason it's way OP is because not only are you giving them the ability to assault up to 24" away, but they will barely be effected by terrain. They are already I 6, so they will be striking before any other units (in terrain) AND they'll have a 4+ cover save in terrain?

I don’t think it is too extreme. Their assault range would be at most comparable to an Assault Marine , who has frag grenades so they can avoid the effects of terrain too and has a +3 save both in and out of cover. Maybe jump the price 15, but I don’t think it is unreasonable for 14 points in the world of 6th edition codices.

You are also forgetting that while Assault Marines are also more expensive, have a lower WS, lower Initiative, no rending, no Move Through Cover, no Infiltrate, no Fleet...

 Happyjew wrote:

Zookie wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
WAAAAAAY OP.

I love Genestealers too! I'm trying to get them to work in 6th, and while moderately successful, definitely not for competitive play.

The reason it's way OP is because not only are you giving them the ability to assault up to 24" away, but they will barely be effected by terrain. They are already I 6, so they will be striking before any other units (in terrain) AND they'll have a 4+ cover save in terrain?

I don’t think it is too extreme. Their assault range would be at most comparable to an Assault Marine , who has frag grenades so they can avoid the effects of terrain too and has a +3 save both in and out of cover. Maybe jump the price 15, but I don’t think it is unreasonable for 14 points in the world of 6th edition codices.

You are also forgetting that while Assault Marines are also more expensive, have a lower WS, lower Initiative, no rending, no Move Through Cover, no Infiltrate, no Fleet...

True but jump jets, krak and frag grenades and relatively cheap special weapons bring a lot to the table and as minor as it is, a bolt pistol vs. no range options whatsoever does make a difference. Especially against 5+ AS genestealers.

What do you think would be an appropriate cost for a Genestealer with all these bells and whistles then? Would 16 points apiece cut it?

I think Genestealers do need a rule change to keep them relevant in a 6th edition environment and I would prefer to get more bells and whistles rather to just making them cheaper.

Cheap is for guants, awesomeness is for Genestealers.

Bring genestealers str up to 5.
Bring genestealers base attacks up to 3.
Give useful psychic powers to broodlords. Endurance as a standard power as an example. Or Agility - blessing - brood treats difficult/dangerous terrain as normal terrain.

I think giving Genestealers a rule that lets them enter on from any table edge, representing their infestation attacking. The entry point would be preselected of course and like Ymgarls, allow asssaulting.

I think we should bring them back up to second edition states.

WS6, I6, A8...

:p

I think your rules might be OK if it was a choice between those three special rules (Hunter-Hunted, Ambush Predator OR Swift and Silent).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think we should bring them back up to second edition states.

WS6, I6, A8...

:p

I think your rules might be OK if it was a choice between those three special rules (Hunter-Hunted, Ambush Predator OR Swift and Silent).

Be nice, they only had A4 not 8. But there were Str 6 too, which gave them a -3 on the armor save, pretty much negating power armor.

Why a four armed, close combat specialist like a genestealer does not have more attacks then a hormagant I don't know.

personally i would like to see stealer able to assault on the turn they arrive from outflank.
would like to see Stealers/Hormagaunts able to run and charge in same turn, i think all nids is a bit op, or make it so its non monstrous creatures and with out wings.
would like an invul for the tyrant
the Mawlock/tyrgon able to charge the turn it arrives from DS.
and the carnie not so weak for the points.

From its birth nids are not a shooty army, the are a fast in your face assault army and 6th turned them in to a slow shoot to survive army. Reading through some of the SM codexs i face palm at all the new rules they have which makes them more powerful then ever before. It also has to be remembered that nids dont have options like vehicles to support us.

Honestly I've been running 20 ymgarls at 1850 and 2000 games and they usually kill about double their points, so I can't feel bad for stealers in 6th. Play ymgarls!!!!!

Lord of Lustria wrote:
Honestly I've been running 20 ymgarls at 1850 and 2000 games and they usually kill about double their points, so I can't feel bad for stealers in 6th. Play ymgarls!!!!!

14 point troop choice vs 23 point elite, Ymgarls are great, but they are what stealers should have been

Being able to assault the turn they come in ruins the day of any meany who spams long fangs or the like.

I like the ravenous advance rule except make it for tyranids that have no ranged attacks what so ever. The +1 cover against over watch is great.

And as for the 3 traits for GS and BL like someone said you can choose one at appropriate points cost, but with some changes, it would be shrouded instead of stealth so they can still benefit from the stealth in over watch, they would get counter attack anywhere period, and instead of -1 initiative assaulting through cover, they would strike at the same initiative as the majority unit they are assaulting unless of course the enemy has a higher initiative. They would all be pricey upgrades.

Good call on a lot of those rules though

The suggestions in the OP are better than other peoples suggestions that they should be able to charge out of reserve/out of Ymgarl reserve. I wouldn't be surprised if Ymgarls lose that ability, seeing as every other ability to charge out of reserves has been removed. Glorious Intervention and Dreadnought Drop Pods are two of them. A troop choice, even if Ymgarls retain it, most definitely will not get the ability to assault out of reserves of any kind.

I kind of disagree with the cover save against assaults for all 'nids. After all, there are so many of them, even if you miss the closest one, you'd hit the one behind him.

Though, it'd probably be better if they made that second set of upgrades a choice, or a table like the Imperial Guard's Penal Legion. After all, I imagine different broods are bred to do different things.

Zookie wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Zookie wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
WAAAAAAY OP.

I love Genestealers too! I'm trying to get them to work in 6th, and while moderately successful, definitely not for competitive play.

The reason it's way OP is because not only are you giving them the ability to assault up to 24" away, but they will barely be effected by terrain. They are already I 6, so they will be striking before any other units (in terrain) AND they'll have a 4+ cover save in terrain?

I don’t think it is too extreme. Their assault range would be at most comparable to an Assault Marine , who has frag grenades so they can avoid the effects of terrain too and has a +3 save both in and out of cover. Maybe jump the price 15, but I don’t think it is unreasonable for 14 points in the world of 6th edition codices.

You are also forgetting that while Assault Marines are also more expensive, have a lower WS, lower Initiative, no rending, no Move Through Cover, no Infiltrate, no Fleet...

True but jump jets, krak and frag grenades and relatively cheap special weapons bring a lot to the table and as minor as it is, a bolt pistol vs. no range options whatsoever does make a difference. Especially against 5+ AS genestealers.

What do you think would be an appropriate cost for a Genestealer with all these bells and whistles then? Would 16 points apiece cut it?

I think Genestealers do need a rule change to keep them relevant in a 6th edition environment and I would prefer to get more bells and whistles rather to just making them cheaper.

Cheap is for guants, awesomeness is for Genestealers.

Except frag grenades don't matter much when you have a special rule that only lowers your initiative by 1 so you are still faster than assault marines, and while krak grenades may be nice, rending can be better, with a maximum penetration roll of 13 against vehicles (str 4, 6 to pen, 3 on the additional d3 roll) compared to krak grenades only being able to glance AV 12. Also, a gakky armour save doesn't matter when you have stealth.

I feel it's relevant to the conversation but I found some rumors here http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/43980?page=1

We are all going to be very surprised when most of these rules are actually in effect haha.

pretty sure overwatch ignores cover.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
pretty sure overwatch ignores cover.

No where does it say that, if they have a gun that ignores cover that's different.

Zookie wrote:
As for Genestealers/Broodlords I would keep the same stats, cost and upgrade costs and rules but I would add these three new rules:

Hunter-Hunted:
Genestealers/Broodlords gain Counter Attack when in terrain.

Ambush predator:
Genestealers/Broodlords only suffer an initiative penalty of -1 for assaulting into terrain and are immune to defense grenades

Swift and Silent:
Genestealers/Broodlords have Stealth

Do you foresee choosing one of those 3 per brood? Like you do for IG Vet's? If so, I quite like the idea. Should be a points cost associated with it.

If not.. feels OP.

 Skabfang wrote:

Zookie wrote:
As for Genestealers/Broodlords I would keep the same stats, cost and upgrade costs and rules but I would add these three new rules:

Hunter-Hunted:
Genestealers/Broodlords gain Counter Attack when in terrain.

Ambush predator:
Genestealers/Broodlords only suffer an initiative penalty of -1 for assaulting into terrain and are immune to defense grenades

Swift and Silent:
Genestealers/Broodlords have Stealth

Do you foresee choosing one of those 3 per brood? Like you do for IG Vet's? If so, I quite like the idea. Should be a points cost associated with it.

If not.. feels OP.

I'd like them to have all three as it fits the fluff and (IMO) the niche stealers should play in the army. I would like to see stealer be absolute murder in terrain and very vulnerable in the open. I don't mind them being more pricy. I'd say give them all three and make them 18 points.