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Ok, so with a little tinkering and play testing, I have come up with this. I want to know my 'holes'.

Here it is:

2000 Pts - Codex: Eldar Supplement - Iyanden Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2000

HQ: Farseer (1#, 130 pts)
1 Farseer, 100 pts
1 Spear of Teuthlas
1 Guardian Helm of Xellethon
Warlord

HQ: Spiritseer (1#, 70 pts)
1 Spiritseer, 70 pts

Troops: Wraithblades (6#, 305 pts)
5 Wraithblades, 160 pts Ghost Axes
1 Wave Serpent, 145 pts = Holo-Fields + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 305 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 160 pts
1 Wave Serpent, 145 pts = Holo-Fields + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 355 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 210 pts + D-Scythe
1 Wave Serpent, 145 pts = Holo-Fields + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 355 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 210 pts + D-Scythe
1 Wave Serpent, 145 pts = Holo-Fields + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Heavy Support: Wraithknight (1#, 240 pts)
1 Wraithknight, 240 pts

Heavy Support: Wraithknight (1#, 240 pts)
1 Wraithknight, 240 pts

So it is an attempt at being a themed competitive list. The idea is that the wraithblades will never start embarked on transport and are instead a bodyguard for the farseer with the guardian helm.That leaves him free for buffs. I will roll Divination first, then telepathy, then Runes Switching tables when I have to revert to primarus powers. I figure guide and prescience won't be too bad for the knights. 4 Serpents should be a pain to almost anyone. And should be enough S6 dakka to deal with most elite infantry and fliers. 2 squads of scythes should have almost no trouble clearing any objective holders, or cover reliant squads, and I would imagine that no one fancies charging them! The standard guard should be able to fly around and pop any tanks/MC's that the knights don't deal with. And once out of the transport, the Spiritseers battle focus, plus the Farseer's guide means 5 fast moving, easily repossitionable twin linked S10 cannons.

So, seriously, what do people see me struggling with? To me, it looks like I have every angle covered. 10 flamer templates, 9 S10 weapons, 28 twin linked S6 shots, and those pretty shields should I need them - though for the first 2 turns I will probably keep them up!

Well, certainly not my playing style. The shooting output in the first few rounds is rather small since you only have 3 Serpents and 2 WKs. I prefer larger damage output in the overture.

I like choppy wraiths but will suggest swapping them for basic wraithguard as serpents arent assault vehicles you have to hope the enemy will let you just stroll up park wait till you chop them up. At least with guns you can pop out shoot and if needs be hold your own in combat

The blades aren't designed to do any chopping if I'm honest. I have 4 Serpents for firepower, but only 3 of them will transport troops. The idea of the blades is to walk on foot with the farseer in the squad. I'm not intending to run them, but to keep the farseer in range for all his buffs. Their T6 3+ 4++ makes them a tough unit to eliminate, and the guardian helm means the seer automatically passes all his look out sir rolls! The point in that unit is to sit back and protect the seer.

I understand that people then may think they are an easy target, I'm hoping that 4 Serpents (3 with guard in) and 2 Knights hammering forward 12" in turn one will distract the fire somewhat.

Just so you guys know the tactics........And so you can decide whether you think it will work?

I like it! I wouldn't play it, as it's not my cup of tea, but I like it!

Only thing I'd change is drop the Holofields on that one empty Serpent and drop the Spear of Teuthlas(unless you're taking it for fluff reason) and go for the Wraithforge Stone. That thing will help your Wraithknights survive even longer.

Its solid but has some issues:

Farseer is a bit of a sitting duck in that squad. Tau are a terrible match up for Eldar at the best of times and that squad makes the Farseer an obvious target for Riptides (who'll have nothing else to really bother shooting early game). Whilst Broadsides should kill 2-3 of your Serpents a turn. Not a great option. Likewise guard are happy for their large blasts to be able to do something, DE will use their poison shots (knowing they can kill the Wraithknight as and when they want to).

That bodyguard will work well against Orks or Nids (who's long range firepower will need to be pointed at the Serpents) and probably marines (who'll just have too many targets for their short ranged grav weapons).

I feel in most cases you're better off with a mantleseer easier to hide from Tau and not much else bothers him.

As is often the case with Eldar and Iyanden builds particularly you are very low on AA. For 2k you do not have a huge amount of threats on the board and the Wraithcannon Knights can simply be ignored until mid-game by most armies.

I was hoping the four serpents with TL SL and TL shields will deal with most fliers. As for broadsides killing 2-3 serpents a turn....are you serious? I've not had that experience, the 4+ cover followed by 2+ shield tends to mean my serpents last at least 3 turns. Enough to disembark the guard anyway.

With the wraithknights speed, I'd argue that no one can ignore two of them really. But poison weapons are a concern, hence hammering all 4 serpents and both knights forward as fast as possible turn one.

I am concerned about the seers survivability, was kind of hoping that the serpents and knights aggressive move would discourage shooting at the farseer. The other option I had was dropping the farseer for a second spiritseer, and taking guard instead of blades. But so far I have had some success with the Farseer. He's not been killed yet!

Against many Tau you won't be getting 4+ cover and the shield is irrelevant as they'll glance you to death. 3 Broadsides puts on average 12 S7 hits on your Serpent without any ML support. With ML support there's basically no point even rolling the dice your Serpent is dead. I run Broadsides in pairs but have ML support from Mark'o commanders so I would be socked if I didn't kill 2 Serpents turn 1. Probably 3 many games (as my commanders should be putting 3-4 S7 hits on your Serpents too). Trust me Broadsides kill Serpents with ease (I speak from both sides here as I also run Iyanden).

As for fliers it depends what you're up against. 2-3 Storm talons or Dakkajets and you're fine. 2-3 Helldrakes and you're starting to worry, likewise 2-3 Storm Ravens, 3-4 Vendettas or 6+ Scythes and you're in real trouble.

Wraithknights aren't great in combat so you won't always be able to rush them forward. But they can work.

As I said the list is solid but against certain top tier armies it has some holes. Just 4 Serpents at 2k is not enough in my opinion (I run 3 at 1750 and against the best armies that is not enough either). Particularly if you're relying on them for AA. Likewise I feel the Mantleseer works perfectly for how you want your seer to operate and brings more to the table.

Ok, I like most of the list, but that it because I am working towards something similar(currently on the backburner to my competitive Tau who are getting ready for the Renegade Open Next Month).

My 1850 looks like this...


Note, at 1850 my list brings more ranged bite than your 2k list, what I lose is the Farseer and the Shuriken Cannons.

Shurkien Cannons, if you are moving around they are low man on the totem pole and won't prove that effective.

Farseer, he is a sitting duck and many armies will obliterate him and a measly 5 Wraithblades for Warlord, probably even 1st Blood at 2k as well.

AA is a weakness to this list, but versus many armies you don't have to worry about fliers too much. The heldrake can be a big concern to your exposed troops, but are ineffective against Waveserpents with their shields up and against Wraithknights. Keep your serpents around the 30-36" range or further T2 so he can't vector strike you and move behind him. Heldrake now only has 3-5 turns to be effective, possibly less with reserve rolls. Keep the shield up on the ones who can't.

I am going to Disagree with FlingitNow. Many tau builds struggle to down Wave serpents. Yes, in the correct position broadsides will glance a Serpent to death fairly quickly, but they have 36" range. Wave Serpents easily out range them with their shields. Deploy 37-43" away and Tau won't have the ranged ability to hurt your serpents. Also, Tau cannot effectively deal with Wraithknights. Point them in his general direction, especially those Broadsides/Riptides and shoot/charge them. It will take an entire Tau army to take out a Wraithknight.

Wraithkngiths may not be great in combat, but there are very few things they cannot kill and they are really only vulnerable to Poison, Bladestorm, and Rending so plan accordingly. FMCs are a tough nut, but they don't want to be on the ground versus your Wraithguard/Scythes either. That becomes a game of whose target priority is better.

Oh, and the Mantleseer isn't a great grab, especially versus Tau and Eldar opponents. Each army will have the ability to ID and ignore his cover/armor at range and he becomes an easy Warlord, 1st Blood, Kill Point.



Here is a similar tournament list and summary from Cormade Panda at Feast of Blades http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556885.page#6132336

Yeah, I see a load of love for the mantleseer, but cannot understand why. I thought exactly what you said, he is easy first blood and warlord points!

The issue is, I love farseers and the buffs they give, so I'd like to keep one, but I'm reluctant to attempt to try and convert one on a bike - it genuinely annoys me that GW don't make such a model!

Taking the wraithblades does reduce my firepower somewhat I agree, but they're about as tough a unit I can squeeze him in in order to keep him alive, and the fact that he can twin link guard and knights has surely got to be worth the points?

However, my alternative was similar to yours, with the blades becoming guard, and the Farseer becoming a spiritseer. 1 SS would have the wraith forge stone, and the other would have the spear and the guardian helm and be the warlord, what would your thoughts on that be?

And I do disagree with them being poor in combat, 5 S10 attacks at I5 at ap 2 plus a HOW attack is pretty nasty! Especially hitting broadsides/riptides/daemon princes/any tank!

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Yeah, I see a load of love for the mantleseer, but cannot understand why. I thought exactly what you said, he is easy first blood and warlord points!

The issue is, I love farseers and the buffs they give, so I'd like to keep one, but I'm reluctant to attempt to try and convert one on a bike - it genuinely annoys me that GW don't make such a model!

Taking the wraithblades does reduce my firepower somewhat I agree, but they're about as tough a unit I can squeeze him in in order to keep him alive, and the fact that he can twin link guard and knights has surely got to be worth the points?

However, my alternative was similar to yours, with the blades becoming guard, and the Farseer becoming a spiritseer. 1 SS would have the wraith forge stone, and the other would have the spear and the guardian helm and be the warlord, what would your thoughts on that be?

And I do disagree with them being poor in combat, 5 S10 attacks at I5 at ap 2 plus a HOW attack is pretty nasty! Especially hitting broadsides/riptides/daemon princes/any tank!

mantle sear easy first blood and slay the warlord....
please tell me you are kidding.
how the are they gonna be getting first blood when your mantle sear has a 2+ cover save that he ets to REROLL. just by moving.
there is no way there getting first blood off that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if your thinking because of all the ignores cover oppnents (which is really only 2 teams) its fairly easy to keep one model out of sight, and problem solved.

If he gets to move....If the opponent gets first turn you'll need to really hide him to stop him from being squished! My serpents laugh out loud at mantle seers. Serpent shields smoosh him easily!

cant shoot at him if you cant see him.

its pretty easy to hide him behind a wall, and then hes fine

Agreed. None the less I don't want to run a mantle seer. Though I know your a man of great experience, what would you do to my list? Bearing in mind it's ghost themed and I hate jetbikes!

I'm going to agree with Zagman on Wraithknights causing Tau Problems.

But if you're keeping your Serpents back in this list the Tau player is happy as he can concentrate on the Wraithknights.

Cronair causes you real problems as they'll kill your Serpents whilst Death marks kill your Knights.

I disagree with Zagman on the Mantleseer. Just keep him out of LoS until you've removed your opponents ignore cover weapons. Which is pretty easy with a Mantkeseer and really difficult with a unit of 5 Wraithguard...

Like I said, I don't want to take a mantleseer. I hate jetbikes, and won't use it for him on foot, cos he will die. And my intention is for all 4 serpents and both knights to hammer forward! Hence I thought the seer and his blades squads would possibly be left alone!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless people are suggesting a foot mantleseer?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
cant shoot at him if you cant see him.

its pretty easy to hide him behind a wall, and then hes fine

That assumes you will be able to hide him completely from LOS, not exactly as easy or automatic as you make it sound.

Also, you cannot Bless what you cannot see. Go ahead, be behind that wall, or in that corner nook if it is there, then the rest of your army unless it hangs back isn't getting the blessings it needs and I'm dictating your movment and ability to buff your own army.

Yes, only two armies can ignore his cover, the two most prevalent armies... And one of the 3rd, has the Helldrake. So, Tau, Wave Serpents, Helldrakes. Granted, T4 makes it way harder, and a Foot Mantleseer is just folly. Wave Serpents are the biggest threat, even one or two drawing LOS can kill a Mantleseer. The other armies have to work harder, but will dictate your movement and abillity to buff your own army.


Cronair or tesla crons in general are going to be a problem, but deathmarks, really aren't all that likely to be seen, especially in the more competitive cron lists.

Regarding the Mantleseer. I have to be honest, I find him to be a gimmick, rather than reliable. As a warlord, I'm especially not convinced. And this isn't armchair generalism either, I've used him since the new codex dropped. Switched between him and the Autarch. And what I found that on both those cases, they are both sometimes very effective, other times they are completely useless. The biggest issue with the Mantle is the fact that no one in their right mind will target them, unless they have ways to effectively punch through that 2+ cover. And if they can, they will, with ease. If they can't, then they're just minor nuisances, a thorn in your opponent's back.

Sure, if they are your Warlord, they can be nigh unkillable in about half the games you play. In the other half, you will hand out your warlord to your enemy on a silver platter. Recently, I've started hiding my warlord within a squad of 9 jetbikes. He hasn't died yet. But then again, unlike the OP, I -really- like jetbikes.

The list Zagman posted is cool. Then add some Warp spiders in there or a Nightspinner or something else to add to your ranged punch, and you're settled for 2k points.

Thank you, someone who sees it as I do?

So what would you do with my HQ slots?

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So what would you do with my HQ slots?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but personally, I'd stick with a Spiritseer and perhaps double him up. Twice as many chances to get Renewer and Protect, two Spirit Marks. Maybe take the Wraithforge stone on one of them, so you could potentially heal 3 wounds on your WKs per turn. Then make your WK a Warlord.

First question is are you trying to be competitive? If so, then you should probably take these guys' advice and make the changes.

If you're playing for fun, then F it. Play what you like, because it's cool and who cares what they say. After all what's the point of a thread if you don't want to take advice?

I mean, I use a chaplain as my HQ if that's any indication.

 Zagman wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
cant shoot at him if you cant see him.

its pretty easy to hide him behind a wall, and then hes fine

That assumes you will be able to hide him completely from LOS, not exactly as easy or automatic as you make it sound.

Also, you cannot Bless what you cannot see. Go ahead, be behind that wall, or in that corner nook if it is there, then the rest of your army unless it hangs back isn't getting the blessings it needs and I'm dictating your movment and ability to buff your own army.

Yes, only two armies can ignore his cover, the two most prevalent armies... And one of the 3rd, has the Helldrake. So, Tau, Wave Serpents, Helldrakes. Granted, T4 makes it way harder, and a Foot Mantleseer is just folly. Wave Serpents are the biggest threat, even one or two drawing LOS can kill a Mantleseer. The other armies have to work harder, but will dictate your movement and abillity to buff your own army.


Cronair or tesla crons in general are going to be a problem, but deathmarks, really aren't all that likely to be seen, especially in the more competitive cron lists.

well at my lgs there is always at least one peice of terrain for my mantle seer to hide in, thats out of los.
and generally my mantle sear can see most of my army anyways, because i generally run a serpent gunline.
hell drakes? they do wont kill it. they have one turn to try, bfore i 1) move at of its way and 2) kill it with my serpents.

but, anyways, OP doesnt want to run one, and thats fine. just saying, mantle sears are great.
dont bother with a mantle sear on foot, thats pretty useless


honestly Op your list is prettty good. i would take out wraithblades for maybe a war walker squad.

I am listening to advice, I'm just not listening to mantleseer advice. I don't think it fits my list, mad I don't find them very effective.

I am considering dropping the Farseer for a second spiritseer. Heck, I could use the Farseer model. But I am a big fan of guide and prescience. I also think the blade models are very pretty...but I guess winning armies aren't always pretty ones!

I've always been tempted to make a WK a warlord. I often wondered if it was a double edged sword though? They always seem so high up on the target priority list that they take a heck of a lot of fire!

Ok, So I have had a fiddle, Is this more competition plausible? It's pretty self explanatory, to get in the face of the enemy ASAP!

2000 Pts - Codex: Eldar Supplement - Iyanden Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2000

HQ: Spiritseer (1#, 100 pts)
1 Spiritseer,
1 The Wraithforge Stone

HQ: Spiritseer (1#, 70 pts)
1 Spiritseer, 70 pts

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 305 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 160 pts
1 Wave Serpent, 145 pts = Holo-Fields + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 305 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 160 pts
1 Wave Serpent, 145 pts = Holo-Fields + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 370 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 210 pts (base cost + D-Scythe)
1 Wave Serpent, 160 pts = Holo-Fields + Vectored Engines + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Troops: Wraithguard (6#, 370 pts)
5 Wraithguard, 210 pts (base cost + D-Scythe)
1 Wave Serpent, 160 pts = Holo-Fields + Vectored Engines + TL Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannon

Heavy Support: Wraithknight (1#, 240 pts)
1 Wraithknight, 240 pts

Heavy Support: Wraithknight (1#, 240 pts) - Warlord
1 Wraithknight, 240 pts

The vectored engines allow the serpents to drop the scythes off rear facing forwards and then spin back round in the shooting phase!

Let me know what you think?

That's a very serious list, I must say. It certainly means business. And the fact you're running Iyanden with two Spiritseers and the Wraithforge stone means that Warlord of yours can take more punishment than anything else in your army. It can potentially go from 1 to 4 wounds in one movement phase. And if you happen to roll FNP Iyanden warlord trait or the one for rerolling saves, that'll be very fun. With a 12" FNP(6+) bubble your entire wraith army could be that much more difficult to kill.

Do you think I'll have many issues? I can see hell turkeys annoying me?

Hellturkeys will have trouble against you more than most lists out there, especially if you roll Protect/Jinx. 2+ saves laugh at Hellturkeys. And T6 means they'll be wounding you on 4+ and 3+ with Baleflamer and Vector Strike respectivelly.

I'm hoping for renewer, to gain wounds back, if I don't get it I'll take voice of twilight and try again. If i do get it I'll be tempted with psychic shriek, since I don't think battle focus is all that needed in this list!

I think the best way to play this list is to hammer forward as fast as possible, hopefully after a 6" move on turn 2 I can disembark and all be in shooting range. Even the scythes with those vectored engines!

Seem like a sound strategy? Obv it might change depending on who I'm fighting. My farsight opponent will hate it!

like that last list

Sweet! Thumbs up from ninjafiredragon is ALWAYS a compliment! How would you run it?