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In the Khador and Protectorate army books, Vladimir claims to be the sovereign of Umbrey. Vindictus views this claim with incredulity. In the text, Vindictus's skepticism seems connected to his distaste for Vladimir's dealings with the Old Witch. But he also contrasts Vladimir's claim against Ayn Vanar's position as Empress. This got me thinking, what is the political constitution of the Khadoran Empire? That is, what degree of autonomy (if any) do its sub-units enjoy? Can Vladimir meaningfully claim sovereignty as the Great Prince of Umbrey? Is the Khadoran Empire a kind of confederation of allies or is Vladimir properly a vassal the Empress?

It's a mix of nobles and Kayazy. Nobles (Vlad) are the traditional rulers of the region (the horselords) and wield armies of their own and a historical right to rule their regions. Kayazys are more urban and merchant based but just as political.

Similair to Tzar meets communist Russia. Or in England, Vlad would be like one the the dukes or earls. But he is subserviant to the Queen, so he acts as a kind of Governor/Duke of Umbrey.

English dukes and earls are not sovereigns, as I understand it.

My question is whether the sub-units of the Khadoran Empire retain some administrative independence like the states of the United States (and unlike, for example, the republics of the Soviet Union).

 Manchu wrote:
In the Khador and Protectorate army books, Vladimir claims to be the sovereign of Umbrey. Vindictus views this claim with incredulity. In the text, Vindictus's skepticism seems connected to his distaste for Vladimir's dealings with the Old Witch. But he also contrasts Vladimir's claim against Ayn Vanar's position as Empress. This got me thinking, what is the political constitution of the Khadoran Empire? That is, what degree of autonomy (if any) do its sub-units enjoy? Can Vladimir meaningfully claim sovereignty as the Great Prince of Umbrey? Is the Khadoran Empire a kind of confederation of allies or is Vladimir properly a vassal the Empress?

The Khadoran Empire was until very recently a Kingdom. Queen Ayn Vanar proclaimed the reconstitution of the Empire after the capture of much of the Llaelese territory which they claimed was rightfully theirs, but had been ''stolen'' during the negotiations that led to the current shape of the Iron Kingdoms. Most of the wars fought in the last 3 centuries were fought because of those border divisions.

Vlad's title remains, I think, that of Prince. Which means he is responsible for the management of affairs in Umbrey, has the right to raise and maintain an army autonomous from the Khadoran High Command, and technically is right under the Khadoran Throne in the constitutionnal structure. Up until ''Colossals'', that was all pretty honorific, as nowadays the real political power is either in Ayn's hands or in the Kayazy merchants who are responsible for Khador's industrialisation. In a previous book, Irusk didn't see any problem with interfering with that standing private army, and ordered Vlad to give him all the warjacks he had that didn't come from his personal stable. Now this might change, as Empress Vanar has officially recognized that much of the Llaelese land reconquered belongs to the Umbrean Prince, giving him rights to two of the Iron Kingdoms most important cities, in terms of trade and alchemy.

So, pretty much, the individual Khadoran Principalities are sovereign in the same sense that Canadian provinces are sovereign : we are sovereign in regards to our competencies, but aren't in regards to the competencies we bestow upon the federal government. Which means, in reality, that we aren't sovereign, but that we still say we are because that's a nice thing to say and it doesn't bother the feds until we start acting upon it. In the same sense, Empress Ayn Vanar surely wouldn't have had much of a problem with Vlad calling himself sovereign in order to claim Rights of Parley with Vindictus, and if Vindictus wasn't a dick (basically the Iron Kingdoms version of Starscream), he shouldn't have had too much of a problem granting it. But in reality, Vlad's a vassal to a fascist and expansionist state. If they weren't busy oppressing the pseudo-french and fighting wars with Cygnar, the khadorans would be busy oppressing the Umbreans.

Cygnar would be the confederation of allies united under a constitutionnal monarchy, in the setting.

Excellent response!

What part of the current Khadoran Empire was a Kingdom? For example, I read somewhere that Umbrey at one point joined up with Llael. Did the Corvis Treaties straighten that out or was that a subsequent development? Is "Khador" a place (e.g., Virginia) or more of an idea (e.g., the United States)?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
we are sovereign in regards to our competencies

This is especially interesting in terms of the Iron Kingdoms setting. For example, are the Khadoran sub-units (I forget the proper name) actually competent to field a "modern" 'jack-based army?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
(basically the Iron Kingdoms version of Starscream)

Kind of true!

 Manchu wrote:
Excellent response!

Thanks!

What part of the current Khadoran Empire was a Kingdom?

The Khadoran have claimed the Corvis Treaties took from them the major part of the northern Thornwood, and the nothern parts of Llael, which ''belonged'' to the Umbrean Horselords before the Orgoth Invasion. About 5 years ago (in settings time), after the conquest of much of Llael, Queen Vanar proclaimed herself Empress and claimed rights of ownership to all territories that were previously held by the Khardic Empire. They've since more than acheived their goals, and are now encroaching on territory that was never contested.

For example, I read somewhere that Umbrey at one point joined up with Llael. Did the Corvis Treaties straighten that out or was that a subsequent development?

Over a very long timeline :

i) The Thousand Cities Era saw the developments of many city-states. One specificity of living in Western Immoren was that trollkins, dragons and other monsters are pretty much always trying to eat you, so it led to a very early urbanisation and developpment of very strong fortifications.
ii) Kingdoms emerged, rose and fell a bit all over the place. Amongst them, the Umbrean Horselords and the Khards. The Khards eventually beat the Horselords in submission, and proclaimed themselves the Khardic Empire. This is the political entity from which the Khadoran Empire claims its descendance.
iii) The Orgoth Invades and enslave the almost totality of Western Immoren over the course of 2 centuries.
iv) The Orgoth maintains Western Immoren in total subjugation for a very long time (I don't remember, but I think it was over 3 centuries). IIRC, only 3 cities remained free during that time ; the Khardic capital, Korks, the Llaelese capital Merwyn, and the Cygnaran capital, Caspia.
v) Magic, alchemy and gunpowder are discovered, alliances are struck between the defiant cities and with the dwarves and trollkins. The Black Druids create a plague and infects the Orgoth merchants crew as they go back to whatever place the Orgoth call home. Over the course of the next 2 centuries, the Orgoth are slowly fought back from Western Immoren while their home population is decimated.
vvi) With the Orgoth finally beaten, the winners now divide the cake. Because not much stands as far as infrastructures, and the previous borders were constantly shifting during the Thousand Cities Era, those borders aren't immediatly obvious to anyone. For example, the Umbrean Horselords would regularly make war with the Khards and with the people of Merwyn, and considered theirs whatever they could raid and get away with. That's where the Khadoran claim to much of Llael comes from.

Is "Khador" a place (e.g., Virginia) or more of an idea (e.g., the United States)?

More of an idea. The Khards are at the top of the social structure in Khador, pretty much the same way Russians were at the top of the Soviet Union social structure.

This is especially interesting in terms of the Iron Kingdoms setting. For example, are the Khadoran sub-units (I forget the proper name) actually competent to field a "modern" 'jack-based army?

There's nothing stopping them from it, beyond the monstrous ressource investment and logistical nightmare it implies. In reality, I think the only one with a truly modern autonomous army is in fact Vladimir, and even that army relies a lot more on heavy infantry and heavy horse than on jacks.

Yes, I would think a proper jack army requires rail and if there is a Khadoran rail authority it would make the most sense as an Imperial institution.

 Manchu wrote:
Yes, I would think a proper jack army requires rail and if there is a Khadoran rail authority it would make the most sense as an Imperial institution.

Yes. Back in the early days of Prime, Vladimir's feat (double all his jack's speed for one turn) served to represent how he had spent his entire life planning a network of ressource caches so that he could lead his jacks pretty much anywhere faster than anyone. It's even suggested that he either is the one who secretly pulled all the strings to make Khador invade Llael, or either would've attacked Llael alone if he hadn't been able to secure the Queen's backing.

Back then, he made Irusk look like an armchair general.

So Umbrey joined with Lael and later lost territory to Lael in the Corvis Treaties?

 Manchu wrote:
So Umbrey joined with Lael and later lost territory to Lael in the Corvis Treaties?

Not exactly, there was no Llael prior the Corvis Treaties. Just Merwyn as an independant city-state (and a pretty strong one at that). Umbrey just claimed most of the country surrounding Merwyn, because the city-state simply didn't have the means to stop them from constantly raiding them. Over the time, a lot of Umbreans also settled in current northern and western Llael, making it even easier for Vladimir to claim that this is about re-uniting the Umbrean people.

There was no Ord back before the Orgoth Invasion either. There was the Tordor Kingdom (the pseudo-spaniards) and the Thurian Kingdom.

I'm gonna dig back into my old IKrpg books to make sure I'm not messing up the timeline.

Ah! I was wrong. Leryn was the city that held against the Orgoth in current-days Llael, and it wasn't just a city-state, but the Kingdom of Rynyr. Merwyn became the capital of Llael later.

And the Llaelese did steal some territory from Umbrey, in a certain way. After the Orgoth was beaten, but before the Corvies Treaties were penned, it was agreed that the Caspian and the Khards would have free reign to rebuild their countries to their former borders. The Khards forced most of the Horselord's military to help them reconstruct the Khardic region, leaving Umbrey mostly to it's women and children. Leryn and Merwyn took upon themselves to feed and rebuild a good deal of the Umbrean infrastructure, and when it finally came down to discussing the terms of the treaties, they had a good argument to say that a good deal of Umbrey should become theirs. Leryn in particular gave off a 'glamour' of power back then, since they were the first to properly beat the Orgoth in a fielded battle, and also since the myth of Rynyr gunlock-armed peasant burning warwitches at the stake was what fed much of the Rebellion mouvement.

The emerging Khadoran Kingdom didn't have the Colossals that Cygnar had, nor the gunpowder production and alchemy of the Rynyr, nor the needed relations with the dwarves of Rhul to acquire either.

Also remember that pre-Orgoth, there was no "Khador". It was the Khardic Empire back then. I can't remember if Umbrey was ever a true part or not, but I believe they were connected(at some point), considering Khador's claims of their pre-treaty territory.

If I recall correctly the corvis treaties set up the national lines along the similar lines that the orgoth divided the area. The Orgoth had territories that they formed along more logical lines based on geography and location.

That is how previous peoples have been split between two countries like the Umbreans and also the Thurians I believe.

I also think Caspia was the only city (human city anyways) that remained unconquered by the Orgoth.

If you want a run down of the history I would highly suggest investing in the newest IKRPG book, Kings nations gods. It is a TON of fluff, a very large part of which is the history of the 5 Iron Kingdoms. As far as I can tell it is the single largest and most definitive document of the IK history. Though I think there was an old world guide to the IK from the d20 system that had a lot of info in it as well.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Also remember that pre-Orgoth, there was no "Khador". It was the Khardic Empire back then. I can't remember if Umbrey was ever a true part or not, but I believe they were connected(at some point), considering Khador's claims of their pre-treaty territory.

Umbrey was at times part and at times independant from the Khardic Empire. In 1102 BR, its recorded to have declared independance from the Khards. 3 centuries later the Horselord War, which lasted a little less than a century, ends with the re-annexation of Umbrey.

It's also important to note that the Khards have the Umbrean to thank for any kind of measure of freedom they had under the Orgoth. It's also the Horselords which, in the end, managed to secure the Khardic territory while the Rebellion was ongoing.

Both Umbrey (in 1169 BR) and Rynyr (1073 BR) existed prior to the Orgoth invasion. Umbrey became part of the Khardic Empire in 716 BR. (All according to KNG.) Merywyn was only founded during the occupation. Llael was created by the Corvis Treaties. The eastern part of Umbrey was included in Llael. The Umbreans and Ryn were allies from the pre-invasion days of Khardic expansion. In the early 200s AR, Khador fostered violence in Llael among Umbreans who sought the reunification of Umbrey to little effect. In 605 AR, however, Khador conquered Llael and in 608 Western Llael was unified with Umbrey as a Khadoran volozk (the word I have been trying to remember all day).

 Manchu wrote:
Both Umbrey (in 1169 BR) and Rynyr (1073 BR) existed prior to the Orgoth invasion. Umbrey became part of the Khardic Empire in 716 BR. (All according to KNG.) Merywyn was only founded during the occupation. Llael was created by the Corvis Treaties. The eastern part of Umbrey was included in Llael. The Umbreans and Ryn were allies from the pre-invasion days of Khardic expansion. In the early 200s AR, Khador fostered violence in Llael among Umbreans who sought the reunification of Umbrey to little effect. In 605 AR, however, Khador conquered Llael and in 608 Western Llael was unified with Umbrey as a Khadoran volozk (the word I have been trying to remember all day).

Thanks for that.

Umbrey became part of the Khardic Empire in 716 BR.

In the old IKrpg, the Horselords joined (apparently voluntarily) the Khardic Empire in 1330 BR, left it in 1102 BR, and was re-annexed in 716BR.

The volozkya as a concept seem to originate with Khardic expansion as a term of vassalage, indicating a lack of sovereignty. They are characterized as "once sovereign" but "subordinate only to the monarchy." More to the point, the Great Princes have to two important limits on their power these days: "it is applicable only within the bounds of their volozkya, and it cannot countermand any law imposed by the emperess or the central government." They are also not allowed to interfere with "matters of national commerce." The volozkya are subject to taxation and conscription by the central government. (KNG p. 126)

 Manchu wrote:
The volozkya as a concept seem to originate with Khardic expansion as a term of vassalage, indicating a lack of sovereignty. They are characterized as "once sovereign" but "subordinate only to the monarchy." More to the point, the Great Princes have to two important limits on their power these days: "it is applicable only within the bounds of their volozkya, and it cannot countermand any law imposed by the emperess or the central government." They are also not allowed to interfere with "matters of national commerce." The volozkya are subject to taxation and conscription by the central government. (KNG p. 126)

So, regardless of what Vladimir says, he isn't the Sovereign of Umbrey. So in the ends the question of weither or not he could claims Rights of Parley hinges on weither it can be extended to emissaries, or if it's just something that Kings and Queens can claim. To have any meaningful use, it would have to be the former.

But even if that's the case, then, I don't think Vladimir was empowered in any way by the Empress when he sought to parley with the Hierarch. Vindictus still ended up messing up and acting like a dick, but he might have been technically correct. The best kind of correct.

Thanks guys. My pre-Orgoth history is rusty, as I haven't read my old IKRPG stuff in years and have been putting off reading anything beyond rules stuff in this edition because I'm too lazy to read books or something.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
So, regardless of what Vladimir says, he isn't the Sovereign of Umbrey.

Now it could be that Vladimir was slyly making a much more aggressive claim ... maybe even offering a kind of, shall we say, talking point with the Menite hardliners. I don't think Vladimir is a Menoth-botherer in the sense of the Protectorate BUT I also have no reason to believe he's not religious at all. If nothing else, he's probably a Menite in the sense of tradition.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
So, regardless of what Vladimir says, he isn't the Sovereign of Umbrey.

Now it could be that Vladimir was slyly making a much more aggressive claim ... maybe even offering a kind of, shall we say, talking point with the Menite hardliners. I don't think Vladimir is a Menoth-botherer in the sense of the Protectorate BUT I also have no reason to believe he's not religious at all. If nothing else, he's probably a Menite in the sense of tradition.

Most of his people are Menite, unless there's a division amongst Khadoran and Umbrean over religion which I don't remember. It could be that he was making some kind of ouverture to the Menites. Well, that won't matter much if he ends up skewering the Hierarch on his lance, now.


Edit : To expand a bit, I think it's unlikely that Vladimir wanted to (primarily) strenghten his political position by striking a form of alliance with the Menites. ''Colossals'' saw the first inter-faction alliance since the beginning of the conflict, with Cygnar and Khador agreeing to a truce and to pool efforts until they could rid the Thornwood of the Cryxian menace. More than likely, Vladimir simply realised the necessity of such an alliance before everybody else, and fell on bad luck when he couldn't deal directly with the Hierarch. But such an alliance, if it could be struck now, would still greatly enhance Vladimir's standing. It could also be to the Menite's advantage, since they are starting to realise that Llael isn't as ideal a target for annexation/mass conversion as they thought. Umbrey might be a much better target, with it's large population of Old Faith worshippers.

And wouldn't that just twist Empress Ayn's imperial panties?

Yep, I agree that this is probably not textual so much as something the text can support BUT it would be pretty interesting if Vladimir was claiming sovereignty to test how Severius reacted. For the Protectorate, we're talking about a religious matter rather than simply a political one. If Severius were to recognize Vladimir as a sovereign, even if he left it unclear as to whether this indicated sovereignty over Umbrey or Khador, this would have a profound political consequence both for the Protectorate and possibly also the faithful in Khador. From Severius's point of view, granting Vladimir an audience could be used to destabilize Khador's internal politics -- at the very least creating a rift between the Empress and Vladimir. And expanding on your thought about Umbrey as a more fertile ground for the Protectorate, what better strategy than aligning with someone with a claim to Umbrey's throne and the Khadoran throne?

I have to say, I'm impressed by the PP fluff (assuming this isn't simply a coincidence).