Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have two 2k lists and I was wanting some feedback from the guys on dakka. I have lots of bikes unpainted atm and I can't decide If I want to stick with RW or play white scars.

White scars 2k list.
Chapter master w/ artificer armor, Shield eternal, bike, TH-250
9 man Bike squad w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF and 2 metlas- 223
9 man Bike squad w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF and 2 metlas- 223
9 man bike squad w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF and 2 meltas- 223
9 man bike squad w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF and 2 meltas- 223
9 man bike squad w/ Vet Sgt w/ 2 flamers- 203
3 man Attack bike squad w/ MM- 165
Storm talon gunship w/ TL lascannon- 140
Centurion Dev squad w/ ML and TL HB- 220
Stalker- 75
Hunter- 70

2k RW army
Sammeal- 200
Libby w/ ML2, power field generator and a bike- 150
5 man RW command squad/ GL, champion and apothecary w/ standard of Devastation- 300
5 man RW command squad w/ GL and apothecary w/ RW standard- 245
6 man RW attack squadron w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF 2 melta gun 216
6 man RW attack squadron w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF 2 Melta guns- 216
6 man RW attack squadron w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF 2 melta guns.- 216
6 man RW attack squadron w/ Vet Sgt. w/ power weapon 2 flamers- 186
6 man RW Black Knights w/ 2 grenade launchers- 252


any suggestions on the armies themselves? (white scars do not get TL bolters that the RW have, correct? I am still new to white scars stuff)

Bikes come standard with TL, but they do not put out the 120 bolter shots your other bikes do...
But on the other hand White scars are to me are a bit more sturdy.

as a DA player i will usually side with DA.
Black Knights are rape trains in both shooting and assault, and the CS's are even more powerful. bolter banner makes them shoot like bolter guardsmen. Sammeal is just an awesome HQ with a plasma and twin stormbolters with AP sword.
The RW army is so awesome because it works so well with greenwing and deathwing, so id say take a squad of some kind of termie to have some stationary firepower you can drop somewhere with locator beacons. Or even DWK if you need a good suprise

If you want to roll lots of dice and an army which is very nearly a one trick pony, then go for the Ravenwing because of dakka banner.

If you aren't doing this then go for Whitescars, as their bikes are so much better value for points.

Ravenwing could still be taken as allies to get a prescience libby with a PFG, 1 RCS, 1 Black knights and a tac squad or scouts. (Yeah the troop choices suck.)

(Also scars have grav gun bikes, which work very well).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
If you want to roll lots of dice and an army which is very nearly a one trick pony, then go for the Ravenwing because of dakka banner.

If you aren't doing this then go for Whitescars, as their bikes are so much better value for points.

Ravenwing could still be taken as allies to get a prescience libby with a PFG, 1 RCS, 1 Black knights and a tac squad or scouts. (Yeah the troop choices suck.)

(Also scars have grav gun bikes, which work very well).

More of a two trick pony. You forgot Black Knight Spam. I really think those are the only two effective Ravenwing builds though, Black Knights and It's Raining Bolt Shells. Some people try to push it to a three trick pony with max speeders (something like 21 typhoons is possible) but you don't see that so much.

after thinking about it... I think I may just go with a successor chapter color scheme and then play whichever fits my fancy still have to come up with how that would work fluffy speaking though :/.

Dark scars

Yeah, DA really don't compare to the new WS. 21pts gets you -+1 Jink, S5 HoW, hit and run, and skilled rider. Scout is included in khan's price tag.

They really do everything DA do better and cheaper. I don't see tons of value in bolter banner, it really won't last long and it forces you to group up your bikes, removing one of their biggest advantages: mobility. Black Knights are cool, but I'd argue scoring bikes with gravity guns are cooler. In fact, point-for-point the grav command squad is much better.

It's really WS all the way in my mind. If you take DA at all, take them for the div libby.

so white scars do get the TL bolters the RW have? dang. that makes the RW less attractive. paying that many more points a model for what? nothing? stubborn? >.> GW pls.

You are comparing things wrong IMO.

White Scars:

18 points base?

Requires a Chapter Master or Captain on Bike or Ko'Sarro Khan to take as Troops.

All Bikes ignore Dangerous Terrain tests.

All Bikes get +1 to their Jink Save and +1 S to Hammer of Wrath.

All models have Hit & Run.

With Ko'Sarro Khan, all your Bike units and units with Dedicated Transports get the Scouts USR.

Each Bike Squadron can have one Attack Bike.

Combat Squads, so you can split Bike Squadrons of 10 models into two units of 5 models. Attack Bikes count as 2 models for this purpose.

May take up to two Special Weapons (including Grav Guns).

Command Squad can take 4 Special Weapons (including Grav Guns).

Has access to Stormtalon Gunships and Attack Bike Squads.

Ravenwing:

21 points base?

Requires Sammael for 200+ points or Azrael for 215+ points to take as Troops.

All Bikes have Teleport Homers.

All units have Grim Resolve (Stubborn and can never choose to automatically fail a Morale check.

All Bikes have Hit & Run.

All Bikes have the Scouts USR.

Each Ravenwing Attack Squadron can have one Attack Bike.

Ravenwing Combat Squads, so your Attack Bike acts as a solo unit at all times (ICs can't join it) and if you have a Land Speeder it operates on its own as well. Units with 6 normal Bikes can split into two units of 3 Bikes. Keep in mind, that means by taking an Attack Bike you have a vulnerable unit for First Blood and more Kill Points in missions that use it.

May take up to two Special Weapons (no Grav Guns).

Command Squad has Plasma Talons, Corvus Hammer, Teleporter Homer as well as Skilled Rider. They can also take Grenade Launchers for free, with Rad Grenades.

Access to Ravenwing Black Knights which have Plasma Talons and Corvus Hammer as well as Skilled Rider. They can also take Grenade Launchers for free, with Rad Grenades.

I'd say White Scars personally. Stronger Hammer of Wrath, Gravity Guns, embedded Attack Bikes, whole units of Attack Bikes, a scarier HQ choice, and they are cheaper per model. Ravenwing can bring fancier Bike units with 18" Plasma Guns and Grenade Launchers (that Rad Shell is disgusting) and S 5 Rending close combat attacks, but they aren't scoring and cost more than Terminators per model. Not being able to take any Flamers kind of sucks too, since you won't want every unit armed with Grav Guns in any event.

It's really a close call.

White scars because of +1 jink, no dangerous terrain tests, hit and run, and Str 5 HoW (squished a lot of Eldar with this the other day ). At 2k I would definitely try to find some room for Khan as Scout is really awesome for that many models. While you won't always get the most mileage by using scout to deploy your army closer (i.e. going second) you can also opt to outflank them. Given that the bikes are pretty mobile, it's hard to go wrong with either. Gives you a lot of tactical flexibility.

As far as the list goes, consider running the bikes in a MSU fashion to maximize the amout of special weapons you can bring. (I might be wrong, but I don't think you can run bikes 9 strong without one of them being an attack bike)
5 man bike units with 2 specials and a combi work very well.
Also consider bringing grav weaponry on some of the squads. Being relentless, the bikes are the best platform in the codex for it, and while specialized, it definitely has a place on the table top.
I'd drop the Stalker and Hunter for another Storm Talon. I have found the Stalker and Hunter to be underwhelming thus far.

You might want to consider bringing a few less bikes in general. On paper it sounds awesome, but on the table you're going to have a hard time finding room to place them all without tripping all over yourself. Those 9 strong units will have huge footprints, thus impossible to hide, and hard to position optimally. 5-6 5-man units should be plenty of bikes if you back them up adequately. Consider maxing out on Storm Talons or find the points for a Storm Raven with the points you save. TFC are also good. Not really a fan of the PF on the squads but hey, to each his own (it does make more sense in the large squad build than in MSU).

Also for your consideration would be a command squad maxed out on special weapons. With the Chapter Master tanking wounds and an Apothecary for FNP, the unit is very resilient and dishes out the hurt. 12 prescienced grav shots wrecks a lot of units.

I like SW for allies because the RP has div as well as the best psychic defense around, and GH are still really solid troop choices. I take a unit of 10 w/2 flamers in a pod for some horde control.

Also, you have 50 bikes laying around??

I don't have the full 50. but I do have a good few. I was planning on combat squading the 9 man (3 base +7 more) into tank hunters and infantry hunters, the 2 meltas would go tank hunting and the PF dakkabikes would hunt inf. if their is little to no infantry the PF goes with the metlas. I will look into the command squad. but AH! I think RW attack squads all get scout free if WS do not.

White Scars are where its at for bike armies at the moment.

As others have suggested max out on grav weapons on them.

Why would you take the Lascannon on the Storm talon when the Skyhammer is cheaper and better? That makes no sense to me.

I find the Stalker infinitely better than the Hunter but they don't really fit with a bike army. Nor do Centurions (who are only worth it with Grav Cannons anyway). Take Talons for AA & Storm Ravens if you want Heavy Support or more AA.

You need at least 2 HQs preferably all 3 (3rd being Iron Hands) and then take a bike command squad with 5 Grav guns for 210points. That's 15 Ap2 shots per unit with a 30" threat range and a 42" turn 1 threat range (from where you deploy). Consider taking a beast Chapter Master as one of the HQs (AA, TH and Shield Eternal for T5, 2+/3++, EW, FnP(6+), IWND with a Thunder Hammer ).

Then just 5 man squads with 2 special weapons and matched combined.

Something like this:

Khan: Moondraken 150
Libby: bike 85
Command: bikes, 5 gravguns 210
Command: bikes, 5 gravguns 210

5 Bikes: 2 meltas, combi melta 135
5 Bikes: 2 meltas, combi melta 135
5 Bikes: 2 Flamers, combi flamer 125

3 Storm talons: Skyhammer 375

Iron Hands

CM: bike, AA, TH, Shield Eternal 250
Command: bikes, 5 grav guns 210

5 Bikes: 2 Flamers 115

So you've got 45 Ap2 shots a turn 6 meltas if needed to pop heavy tanks and 5 flamers (plus the 33 twin linked boltguns) to deal with hordes. 45 Grav shots, 12 S6 rending shots and 9 S7 shots to deal with light mech and 3 Storm Talons for AA.

Plus an absolute CC beast to fall back on if needed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes RW get scout for free but WS are 6points a model cheaper and are better in every other way and require a 150 point character to unlock them as troops (and gain scout) vs a 200 point character...

Here is my Idea for an allied army, what do you guys thing?
also, are you sure grav guns are that much better than melta? I feel like AV14 would be hell for this list :/. on another note am I allowed to take a RW command squad w/ the allies instead of the black knights? Still new to this ally stuff.

Khan w/ moondrakken- 150
CM w/ artificer armor, SE, TH and bike- 250
Command squad w/ grav guns, apothecary, and champion-240
Command squad w/ grav guns, apothecary,-235
6 man Bike squad w/ grav guns, w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF-212
6 man Bike squad w/ grav guns, w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF-212
6 man Bike squad w/ grav guns, w/ Vet Sgt w/ PF-212
Allies
Dark angels
ML2 libby on bike w/ PFG- 150
6 man Black knight squad w/ 2 GL- 252
5 man tac squad w/ ML- 85

Your dark angels allies are illegal. You need Sammeal or Azreal to unlock bikes as troops and then it needs to be in your primary detachment.

Well your bike command squads are incorrectly pointed. They are both 210 points. The Apothecary and Champion upgrades cost the same as grav guns. I would drop them for more gravguns.

I would run the bike squads with different weapons. Grav guns are ace but if you're running double grav command getting a melta squad or two and/or a flamer squad.

I would drop all the Vet and PF upgrades. Bike squads are not good in combat. That is what Black Knights are for.

well yeah they suck in combat, but I was hoping to mitigate that by having PF but I see your point.