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I am really interested in GW move to create supplemental codices. I am yet to get my hands on one but I like the idea. It allows armies to have more flavor without the muddled mess that Chapter Approved was. I have my finger crossed that this will pan out. I would love to see Genestealer Cults, Lost and the Damn, Imperial Navy detachments, Space Marine Battle serfs, feral Orks and more move from just in the fluff to being represented on the table top.

But part of me is nervous about two things. I am concerned that some armies may slowly fade into purely supplemental forces because of low sales. Or things could go the other way and it could become like a pay to win situation, where you have to shell out $60 for a bland codex and then buy a supplemental codex just to field a decent army.

Only time will tell I guess.

I agree completely. All we can really do now is enjoy it while it's good. Even if it goes south, it should at least be interesting to watch right?

One thing is certain.. they are gonna try to make some money.

With the rumoured Ultramarines supplement based around Tyranid Hunters, I'd say supplements are a fantastic idea.

I really worry about the chaos these leads to.

Can players, tournment organizers etc really keep up?

If my next opponent tells me his Imperial Fist termis are fearless and have feel no pain because he bought some wargear in an online only book which I never read...

Well what do I do? Probably go along with it.

Once upon a time it was possible to have a general idea of how each army works, or take a book off the shelf if you needed to verify something.

Now?

I do think that they're a really nice idea, despite the negative scenarios that you've highlighted. Lots of fluff for people who like a given faction, goodies like warlord tables and new missions, and new ways to play your force.

If you don't like the affect of supplements on the game then put restrictions on their use or ban them within your gaming circles.

I don't care about what they do to tournaments because that part of the hobby will always be broken in new ways.

The supplements are a dream come true to anyone interested in the fluff. You really can't lose with the supplements.

Well seeing as Chaos got one and it was pretty bad, I'm not really optimistic.

 gossipmeng wrote:
The supplements are a dream come true to anyone interested in the fluff. You really can't lose with the supplements.

In theory sure but in all honesty the supplements I've seen are pretty weak in the fluff department too. They seem kinda rushed and really do come off as an overpriced cash grab. The production value could go up with better more fleshed out fluff and some new artwork. The bottom line is the price is insane for what you get, some fluff and a couple pages of new rules, often for stuff that is less likely to be utilized (planetstrike as an example).

Look at the farsight enclave, which is probably the best one. It's still kinda crappy and the bastards want 59$ (canadian) for it, that's the price of the original damn book.

I worry for the inquisition one, it's something plenty of people want and would welcom with open arms, the problem is it too will likely be a copout as the others have been. There will likely be no new models released with it and the best you can hope for is some finecaste (shudder). For me the better than nothing argument falls flat unless the price is incredibly low.

It all feels like microtransactions and dlc crap that you see on the videogames side of things.

Meh.

That's really all I have to say about supplements. Well, not really otherwise I'd just end it there. To elaborate I think supplements are okay but it seems to me that a lot of it could have been in the original codex. From what I can tell Codices take a long time to write and plan out before they hit the shelves.

Maybe they are meant to give Codex Writers something small to do when they are just sitting around in between codices?

I like the idea, but i'm starting to get worried that there isn't enough substance to really justify the expenditure.

For instance, i picked up the Farsight Enclave. The fluff is great ! .... 4 pages of rules, and the printed version doesn't even give you the points values for the characters. Dafuq?

Sure i guess this in some way "New Edition" proofs the supplement somewhat, as long as they keep all the bits and bobs intact in new editions of the codex, but it still feels... bizarre.

Looking through my buddies Iyanden, it appears much of the same.


I'm interested in Codex: Inquisition and Supplement: Clan Raaukan, but i'm definite wait and see mode.


Also, if the supplements don't go to print, forget it.


Edit: Kid_Kyoto makes a great point. As an ex tournament organizer myself for a different game system, i would lose my effing mind having to keep up with all these various mild tweaks to rulesets.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Maybe they are meant to give Codex Writers something small to do when they are just sitting around in between codices?

When it takes them 3 editions to get around to updating every codex, they don't have time to be doing anything else in between codexes...

On a conceptual level, I like the idea of Supplements. New rules and more distinct ways of playing an army can be really fun.

That said - it does become very expensive since, based on the existing ones, you're paying ~$40 (USD) for 4 pages of new rules for typical 40k games and the rest is the book is fluff or rules for Cities of Death and Planetstrike. While I like the fluff, it's still expensive.

Furthermore it complicates things for Tournament Organizers. The supplements are coming out as Digital Releases first (Iyanden being unique) and print many months later. So between the cost and the availability (being digital only) it turns into a question of can/will these be allowed.

For casual playing they are a great way to add flavor and variety to the game just like the dogfighting rules in Death from the Skies provides; however, for the tournament scene it becomes even more costly to stay up to speed.

It would also help if they updated planetstrike and cities of death for 6th ed before adding to them.

I think they're awesome. I play Iyanden Eldar, and it really adds flavor and distinguishes my eldar from other eldar.

Once we have enough supplements to where you have to choose between say, Ulthwe and Iyanden, it will make for a ton of diversity.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well seeing as Chaos got one and it was pretty bad, I'm not really optimistic.

I think supplements are a good thing.

The Black Legion supplement is not actually bad, there's just a lot of people who were expecting more than what they got. I play Black Legion and consider the supplement to be very good for my CSMs. My CL is now the toughest thing on the board and my MoN Chosen camp on objectives with tons of plasma and flamers. The warlord traits are better than anything in the CSM Codex 2/3rds of the time.

The rule changes in the Black Legion supplement were pretty small, but they really let you play a different style of army. It's great for people who want exceptionally powerful HQ choices and troop squads with access to lots of heavy weapons.

There was a post somewhere with rumors about other upcoming supplements, I think it said there's going to be an Alpha Legion supplement in the New Year, following by something that has supplements for the 4 Chaos gods. If this is true, I really can't wait to see what sorts of things they tweak. Like, I expect Alpha Legion will do something with the rules for infiltrating, a Night Lords supplement would let you use raptors as troops, etc. I could see myself getting copies of each just to know what the rules are.

 insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Maybe they are meant to give Codex Writers something small to do when they are just sitting around in between codices?

When it takes them 3 editions to get around to updating every codex, they don't have time to be doing anything else in between codexes...

If only that were the truth, huh? Judging by how the codices are I'd hazard a guess that they take about... a year at the most to make. At the most. And most of that is just structuring the book and fine tuning the rules. It makes you question why these books take so long to get out.

Gwyidion wrote:

Once we have enough supplements to where you have to choose between say, Ulthwe and Iyanden, it will make for a ton of diversity.

Until the Eldar codex is redone, and suddenly all of those supplements are obsolete...

For me it is a nightmare.

I am here mostly for the background, and these supplements are mostly background. But... they are awful.

The Black Legion supplement has traumatized me. Lots of retcons, incredibly low quality... it is awful, awful, awful. I would have paid for this supplement never to exist. Few (if any) effort was made while writing it. The Iyanden supplement was not as bad, but still looked as a half baked thing. The only supplement I have enjoyed in the slightest is the Farsight Enclaves, but then again I don´t play Tau.

They sound great but they are money-grabbers: zero effort, zero quality, maximum price. Perhaps they will eventually evolve into something different, who knows? But at the moment they are a nightmare. And I can not stop thinking that they should have been included in the Codex for free. There was a time when GW was not only about money.

That doesn´t stop me for eagerly waiting for Marines supplement.

Also, they are not being translated to any language. Do not underestimate this.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well seeing as Chaos got one and it was pretty bad, I'm not really optimistic.

I think supplements are a good thing.

The Black Legion supplement is not actually bad, there's just a lot of people who were expecting more than what they got. I play Black Legion and consider the supplement to be very good for my CSMs. My CL is now the toughest thing on the board and my MoN Chosen camp on objectives with tons of plasma and flamers. The warlord traits are better than anything in the CSM Codex 2/3rds of the time.

The rule changes in the Black Legion supplement were pretty small, but they really let you play a different style of army. It's great for people who want exceptionally powerful HQ choices and troop squads with access to lots of heavy weapons.

There was a post somewhere with rumors about other upcoming supplements, I think it said there's going to be an Alpha Legion supplement in the New Year, following by something that has supplements for the 4 Chaos gods. If this is true, I really can't wait to see what sorts of things they tweak. Like, I expect Alpha Legion will do something with the rules for infiltrating, a Night Lords supplement would let you use raptors as troops, etc. I could see myself getting copies of each just to know what the rules are.

The problem is that the main rule I hate (VOTLW required) actually ignores the fluff and is actually against how the black legion army works. Even the book mentions how not all of them are elites except for Abbadons personal circle but still requires it for everyone.

^This.

It is sort of a constant in the Chaos Space Marines now. Fluff says something, the rules say exactly the opposite.

Y'know no one's mentioned what these mean for your Friendly Local Gaming Shop.

In the early-2000s GW put stuff like this in WD, then collected it in a big Chapter Approved Book at the end of the year.

So for your FLGS that would mean (in today's prices) $120 worth of WD sales + $50 for Chapter Approved from most GW players.

But now WD has no rules content and these supplements are online only. Even the print versions ahve been direct only.

So instead of $170 the FLGS gets 0.

So when they have to decide which games get their time, shelf space and inventory dollars... well 40k looks a lot less attractive.

Even your local GW store suffers. Your friend local Redshirt has a sales quota to meet and I imagine these direct downloads don't count towards it. So if he talks you into getting Codex Inquisition he might sell some models but not the book.

And these little things do matter to how people stock and support a game.

Haight wrote:I like the idea, but i'm starting to get worried that there isn't enough substance to really justify the expenditure.

For instance, i picked up the Farsight Enclave. The fluff is great ! .... 4 pages of rules, and the printed version doesn't even give you the points values for the characters. Dafuq?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I really worry about the chaos these leads to.

Can players, tournment organizers etc really keep up?

This is one of my concerns. To be competitive at the game, you need to know ALL the rules. That means getting your hands on all of them. When there were 2-3 codexes a year and maybe the odd WD article this wasn't too bad, especially since the books were what, $30 each? Call it ~$100-120 a year to buy every codex and maybe the chapter approved book?

What has 2013 brought? (Prices in american)

Dark Angels; $49.50
Demons; $49.50
Tau; $49.50
Eldar; $49.50
Space Marines; $58.00
Black Legion; $34.99 (Digital only ATM)
Farsight; $49.50
Iyanden; $49.50
Sentinals of Terra: $34.99 (Digital only ATM)
Adepta Sororitas: $34.99 (Digital only ATM)
Up Coming Iron Hands book: $34.99 (Digital only for awhile)
Inquisition: $34.99? (Digital only for awhile)

IF I owned an Ipad or ereader (which I don't) I would be out ~$530. Now, I'm also Canadian, so $530 turns into $650+ (We have a 4% difference in currency and a 20% difference in pricing <sigh>...at least I'm not Australian!). I budget ~$50 a month for 40k stuff, which is about 1 box or a couple characters. That gives plenty of time to get it painted and doesn't break the bank. For me to have kept up with all the rulebooks this year I'd have blown my entire gaming budget without getting a single model or paint pot. Needless to say, that's not really feasible.

$500 a year is a colossal leap upwards from the 100-120 of 2-3 years ago, and don't get me wrong, I DO like them putting out books at a faster pace but from a gaming stand point these supplements are a REALLY weak deal. It feels like GW is charging us $35+ for what should be a white dwarf article or 2.

There's also the whole "keeping up" aspect to the game now. One of my friends has been super busy for the last 6 months, and hasn't looked at anything 40k related. If he were to come back tomorrow he'd be looking at trying to get his head around something like 6+ new books.

Also, if the supplements don't go to print, forget it.

Yeah, I don't need an Ipad/ebook reader as a required 40k gaming tool thanks.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Y'know no one's mentioned what these mean for your Friendly Local Gaming Shop.

In the early-2000s GW put stuff like this in WD, then collected it in a big Chapter Approved Book at the end of the year.

So for your FLGS that would mean (in today's prices) $120 worth of WD sales + $50 for Chapter Approved from most GW players.

But now WD has no rules content and these supplements are online only. Even the print versions ahve been direct only.

So instead of $170 the FLGS gets 0.

So when they have to decide which games get their time, shelf space and inventory dollars... well 40k looks a lot less attractive.

Even your local GW store suffers. Your friend local Redshirt has a sales quota to meet and I imagine these direct downloads don't count towards it. So if he talks you into getting Codex Inquisition he might sell some models but not the book.

And these little things do matter to how people stock and support a game.

It feels like GW's business plan in the last couple of years (since right around the time of the 6th edition rulebook I think) has been "stick it to the FLGS owners as hard as possible". Direct only, delays in shipping out the new codexes/units, digital only (or at least at first) products and whatnot just hurts the local gaming shop more and more. These FLGS are the corner stone of gaming in a lot of areas, as it's pretty clear GW has no interest in promoting tournaments, leagues or gaming nights in their stores. My area has seen 2 out of it's 3 gaming shops either close completely or shut down their gaming table areas, which has basically killed 40k within a 30 mile radius of my home.

Overall, I wish the supplements would have been fewer and farther between them, and been closer to the "thin" codexes from 3rd edition than what we've been getting, with more rules, or perhaps rules for several armies at a time if they are going to trend to what they are doing now. It also leaves me with zero hope and excitement about the forth coming Iron Hands, Inquisition and Ultramarine books.