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If you were to make a list around 3 large squads of warp spiders what would you include with them?

Serpent spam and Jetcouncils are getting all the attention, but Warp Spider builds are pretty damn strong as well. I helped a mate put together a list for the last tournament we went to, with that many Spiders you want 2 Farseers to Guide them and 2 units of Vibrocannons for them to hide in + provide good long range AT. A Wraithknight to anchor the army, absorb fire and provide a threat bubble to stop people zerging you. At least two units of 3 Jetbikes to grab objectives. We considered Serpents to fill out the rest of the points, but in the end went with 10 GK Terminators + Coteaz. That provides a rock solid centre to the army that can deal with anything. The list is great because it has so many tools to deal with different threats and everything in the list is a major threat (or at least great at its job i.e Jetbikes grabbing objectives). If you focus the Spiders then the Terminators wander up the field and smack you in the face, and all the scoring is untouched. If you focus the Terminators then the Spiders bounce all over the board killing stuff. If you try and go after the Support Weapons/WK/Seers then you get counterpunched hard by the Terminators.

Depending on your areas rules on it. I would take Tau allies and bring Shadowsun so you can infiltrate a unit of warpspiders with stealth and shrouding. She also brings some much needed metla. you are not allowed to use battle focus in this unit, but it's a worth sacrifice. And if Tau is the primary, she can be your warlord and give them 3d6 jetpack move. You can bring in some kroot for some versatile troops. And finish off with a Riptide to buddy up with your wraithknight. Also a great place to hide a farseer who has perfect timing and prescience.

If you are running three units of Spiders then you want them all to present equal threats, by buffing the hell out of one unit then people are just going to remove the easy targets first. Also isn't Shadowsun jetpack infantry? Which would mean that you completely remove the biggest strength of the Spiders - their mobility. You still get the 2D6 jump back, but you lose both Battle Focus (which with Fleet is way better than the extra D6 you could get from Shadowsun as the Warlord) and their special Warp Generator jump move in the movement phase. For the same reason how the hell are Spiders are good place to put a Farseer?

Also, why would you feel the need to Infiltrate a unit that can move on average 24" a turn?

Well, Flingitnow has some experience playing such a list. I usually include one full unit and use it for harrassment.

Upgrade them with a spinnerette rifle on the exarch.
Use jetbike squads as screens for the units from return fire.

The 12' range on the weavers means you will have to get very close to the enemy, and you will need ways to tie down and section off the opponents fast movers so they cannot catch up with the warp spiders.

Vibrocannons are a good, cheap option.
Warwalkers make for good support as well.
Prisms and Wraithknights are good for more anti-vehicle punch.

Waveserpent Dire Avengers and Jetbikes are your best troop compliment. Both are fast and durable.

There isn't much in elites, Dragons maybe if you want more AT.

HQ go for warlocks and farseers on bikes.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Also, why would you feel the need to Infiltrate a unit that can move on average 24" a turn?

As I'm sure you know, infiltrating isn't so much about getting closer to the enemy, it's about being able to out deploy against your enemy. Even when going first, it your side as infiltrators, you can respond to your opponents deployment and this allows you to lessen the advantage of your opponent getting to deploy in response to your own deployment.

Warp spiders are good at laying waste to foot units and light to medium armor. I would suggest taking units that deal with what the Warp Spiders have trouble with. Heavy armor. Wraithknights seem a perfect match for Warp Spiders. They can keep up with them on the tabletop. WK present a more fearful target to the enemy so the Spiders might live longer. The WK deals with the heavy armor Spiders struggle against.

{Edit} Reading failure, ignore please.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Also, why would you feel the need to Infiltrate a unit that can move on average 24" a turn?

As I'm sure you know, infiltrating isn't so much about getting closer to the enemy, it's about being able to out deploy against your enemy. Even when going first, it your side as infiltrators, you can respond to your opponents deployment and this allows you to lessen the advantage of your opponent getting to deploy in response to your own deployment.

While true, it's a lot of points for Shadowsun and the Tau Troop tax just to do this for one unit, especially when it is a unit with enough movement to redeploy in its first turn anyway.

A tempting strategy I came up with the other day (probably not the first to think of it):

Autarch with Uldanorethi Long Rifle (so he can be as FAR away from the enemy as possible while still useful)
3 squads of 10x Warp Spiders
2 squads of 3 War Walkers
Wraithknight
And some durable troop choices (or you could be tabled trying this strategy)

Deep Strike with Warp Spiders and Wraithknight while you Outflank with War Walkers. Turn 2, everything comes in on a 2+ with Autarch's Path of Strategy.

It will be humorous just to watch your opponent's face, but probably not a serious strategy. Maybe it would be devastating against a Tau firing line.

Edit: You can even throw in 3 full squads of Striking Scorpions and have them Outflank (thank you Infiltrate).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Also, why would you feel the need to Infiltrate a unit that can move on average 24" a turn?

As I'm sure you know, infiltrating isn't so much about getting closer to the enemy, it's about being able to out deploy against your enemy. Even when going first, it your side as infiltrators, you can respond to your opponents deployment and this allows you to lessen the advantage of your opponent getting to deploy in response to your own deployment.

While true, it's a lot of points for Shadowsun and the Tau Troop tax just to do this for one unit, especially when it is a unit with enough movement to redeploy in its first turn anyway.

You don't pay for shadowsun for just infiltrating warpspiders, you bring her with a force of various infantry units so that she can infiltrate whatever unit best fits the situation, be it some troops, warpspiders, or even a riptide. (That threw my opponent for a loop.

Post 2013/11/04 06:27:46 Subject: Re:Warp Spiders
A tempting strategy I came up with the other day (probably not the first to think of it):

Autarch with Uldanorethi Long Rifle (so he can be as FAR away from the enemy as possible while still useful)
3 squads of 10x Warp Spiders
2 squads of 3 War Walkers
Wraithknight
And some durable troop choices (or you could be tabled trying this strategy)

Deep Strike with Warp Spiders and Wraithknight while you Outflank with War Walkers. Turn 2, everything comes in on a 2+ with Autarch's Path of Strategy.

It will be humorous just to watch your opponent's face, but probably not a serious strategy. Maybe it would be devastating against a Tau firing line.

Edit: You can even throw in 3 full squads of Striking Scorpions and have them Outflank (thank you Infiltrate).

To outflank and deep strike 6 units, you'd need at least 5 on the table, so along with that autarch, you'd need a fair few troops (though i suppose the scorps would help) but in all seriousness, how many pts are you playing? to field even half of what people are suggesting, you're looking at over 2k.

Do you think 3 large squads of warp spiders are capable of alpha strike?

I used Warp Spiders before they were the shizl on the internet. Here's a link:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/06/new-eldar-old-theme-new-look.html

The Warp Spiders were great performers in 5E and now... Yeah. I am rewarded for my collecrtion of Warp Spiders in 6E.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Also, why would you feel the need to Infiltrate a unit that can move on average 24" a turn?

As I'm sure you know, infiltrating isn't so much about getting closer to the enemy, it's about being able to out deploy against your enemy. Even when going first, it your side as infiltrators, you can respond to your opponents deployment and this allows you to lessen the advantage of your opponent getting to deploy in response to your own deployment.

While true, it's a lot of points for Shadowsun and the Tau Troop tax just to do this for one unit, especially when it is a unit with enough movement to redeploy in its first turn anyway.

You don't pay for shadowsun for just infiltrating warpspiders, you bring her with a force of various infantry units so that she can infiltrate whatever unit best fits the situation, be it some troops, warpspiders, or even a riptide. (That threw my opponent for a loop.

That's fine, but the list you are talking about isn't what this thread is about is it?

Actually I thought the thread was exactly about what units you would bring with Warpspiders. I recommended shadowsun.

I think the valid point is if your running 3 squads of warp spiders with exarchs, the rest of your list will be filled out by the required units you need depending on how many points are left over. Your are building your list around them, you should really have something more than 'spam warp spiders' as a concept. OP says 'large' squads, so I am assuming 10 man squads, so 200+pts per squad, 600-700+pts for all 3.

What point total are you running? Because even at 1850, you don't have a single force org required unit yet in your list. Is this a 1500pt list? 1250pts? 1999+1pts? We don't know.

You want to know what to run with them? Depends on what do you want the rest of your list to do. What is your play style, for example.

Gods man, put some thought into it... little effort is all I am asking. Maybe something more than one sentence.

An Autarch with warp jump generator as your HQ could be good. Also gives you the bonus to your reserves roll.

I played against a spider heavy list at 1850 and it was pretty brutal. He did happen to roll the Master of Cities or whatever warlord trait which gave all his units stealth (ruins) on a ruins heavy table so all his spiders were rockin' 3+ cover saves

My opponent's list was something like this:

Farseer on jetbike
3x Guardian jetbikes
3x 6-7 man DA units in WS
3x 8 Warp Spiders (he's been playing Eldar for a long time and says leave 'em bare bones, exarchs aren't worth their cost)
2x Fire Prism

This list is light on AT, but just look at all that Str6/7 dakka!! It has to be played somewhat carefully since spiders aren't the most durable, but it can put out the hurt
Use LoS blocking terrain to your advantage first turn as the spiders will simply hop through it when its time to move.
Despite the short range, they basically have three movement phases which makes them some of the most tactically mobile units in the game. Try to get them 11.5" from their target, then battle focus back (re-rollable thanks to fleet), and use their 2D6 in the assault phase.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Actually I thought the thread was exactly about what units you would bring with Warpspiders. I recommended shadowsun.

Here's the OP's opener:

 CKO wrote:
If you were to make a list around 3 large squads of warp spiders what would you include with them?

Given what the thread is actually about, Shadowsun's main options are three identical units, so the variety of choice you were talking about earlier doesn't really exist. Thus you are taking her and the Tau Troop tax just to Infiltrate one unit that doesn't really need it.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Depending on your areas rules on it. I would take Tau allies and bring Shadowsun so you can infiltrate a unit of warpspiders with stealth and shrouding.

Considering it is not a legit rule this option should just be ignored.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Actually I thought the thread was exactly about what units you would bring with Warpspiders. I recommended shadowsun.

Here's the OP's opener:

 CKO wrote:
If you were to make a list around 3 large squads of warp spiders what would you include with them?

Given what the thread is actually about, Shadowsun's main options are three identical units, so the variety of choice you were talking about earlier doesn't really exist. Thus you are taking her and the Tau Troop tax just to Infiltrate one unit that doesn't really need it.

So the reason I stated shadowsun is because she does add a nice element to an army that is primarily focused on warpspiders, because she then alloows you to have the option to infiltrate any unit, and thus give them the ability to pressure the enemy at the same time as warpspiders (who can move a lot faster then most units obviously). I think she is a great addition to an army focused on warpspiders. Please take the whole list into account and not just the warp spiders since the options question was about what UNITS to take and not what single unit would work best with them.

warpspider89 wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Depending on your areas rules on it. I would take Tau allies and bring Shadowsun so you can infiltrate a unit of warpspiders with stealth and shrouding.

Considering it is not a legit rule this option should just be ignored.

This is not a place to discuss that. Go look up some of the numerous threads on infittrating units with characters before blatantly saying it isn't legit.

Warp Spiders (only one group of 9) absolutely destroyed my BA force, including blowing up my Predator, so I think they're pretty hard core. Combined with scoring, shooty units in Wave Serpents, they ate my lunch.

Putting aside the dubious "legality" of using a character w/ infiltrate to grant infiltrate to a unit w/out the rule (yes, i've read the threads in YMDC) you're now paying even more pts, pushing this list even closer to 3k.

Why does that matter?

warp spiders aren't terrible resilient (T3) or consistent in their movement (fleet only helps a bit here), so it's entirely possible to get them caught out where you didn't want them.

If this is a smaller game, a large number of spiders will decimate large chunks of your enemy's fire power (if you prioritize targets well) and you won't need to worry (as much about being stranded in the open)

in a larger game, 30 spiders aren't going to do nearly enough damage to be able to survive a bad roll or 2.

spamming a single unit obsessively, while possibly theme-y/fluffy, is usually only effective at lower pts values against certain armies (AV 13 thinks deathspinners tickle) so if you're building this army around the idea of 30 spiders, 30 scorpions (as was mentioned further up), shadowsun and some tau, AND all the other required stuff, you'll find that a well balanced army at that pts level has more than enough tools to deal with you.

a smaller, leaner list (1500 and under) will be the most effective place for this many spiders (along with just enough other stuff to support them and hold objectives)

 Coyote81 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Actually I thought the thread was exactly about what units you would bring with Warpspiders. I recommended shadowsun.

Here's the OP's opener:

 CKO wrote:
If you were to make a list around 3 large squads of warp spiders what would you include with them?

Given what the thread is actually about, Shadowsun's main options are three identical units, so the variety of choice you were talking about earlier doesn't really exist. Thus you are taking her and the Tau Troop tax just to Infiltrate one unit that doesn't really need it.

So the reason I stated shadowsun is because she does add a nice element to an army that is primarily focused on warpspiders, because she then alloows you to have the option to infiltrate any unit, and thus give them the ability to pressure the enemy at the same time as warpspiders (who can move a lot faster then most units obviously). I think she is a great addition to an army focused on warpspiders. Please take the whole list into account and not just the warp spiders since the options question was about what UNITS to take and not what single unit would work best with them.

Great, except think about that for a second. 3 big units of Warp Spiders are 570pts. Shadowsun is 160pts I think. Your Tau Troop tax is a minimum of 60pts I believe. And the cheapest Eldar HQ you can get is 70pts. In a standard list that doesn't leave many points to play around with, and it definitely doesn't afford you the ability to build a good list. If you invest properly in Troops you lose out on Wraithknights, and vice versa. Also, to make your ideal Shadowsun tactic works you are going to be going down the Footdar route, but without any of the punch it normally receives from supporting Wraithknights.

So the question remains, do you really think your expensive gimmick is good enough that you don't need as solid a list built around it?

I'd also like to point out that Infiltrating Guardians or Dire Avengers closer to the enemy is just a better way to get them killed faster; there's a reason why most Eldar players play Eldar the way they do. Also, sure you could use Infiltrate to outdeploy with them, but then you could do that with Eldrad for cheaper and better.

Finally, let's stop pretending here, you can say as many times as you want that Shadowsun is for the army, but you originally said Shadowsun specifically, and not say Karandras, because of the Jump Pack because you specifically wanted her on the Warp Spiders.

Personally I like them as a distraction unit. Play it gunline and have your spiders jumping around the back of their vehicles popping them then thrusting away. The player you are facing then has to make a choice. Allow the spiders to keep harassing their force, leading to their downfall. Or, split of part of their force to take them down, letting the pressure of your main guys for a while. This works especially well with Tau/Eldar ally gunlines.

Edit:
To make it more annoying and more likely for them to go after you, I like to add an exarch with a twin-linked deathspinner. Be sure to put some Dark reapers in to (preferably 5 but It depends on your points) in a serpent to really put pressure on. It's pretty hard to ignore spiders coming from both flanks and behind (at least this is where you should DP them) whilst raising towards a death star squad of reapers.