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Hello dakka. Heres my problem.

In a seasoned player with a few local tourney wins under my belt. Im currently playing chaos marines (iron warriors if it matters) and im having issues against my best friends build. He plays tau farsight deathstar with 2 riptides (wouldnt we all?) And allied with marines for tigurious. With all my cunning and ah-ha's i cant beat this list.

Im running a termi chaos lord with black mace, 2 squads of oblits with mon. 2 drakes 2 squads of 20 cultists 2 rhinos full of marines. A solid list in my oppinion.

So here is my question: With the rumors of a new super heavy slot opening up in the foc iam considering buying a baneblade to kill me some deathstar with some str-D blasts.and i like banebladrs. Am i going overboard? I lose 85% of my games to this list.

Dakka always says if i cant beat the list, dont cry cheese, change your list. What do you guys think? Ifhe rumors are true and i can run a super heavy, should i? Is it waac or am i shifting to the meta?

You could always get a BL ally and equip some HQ with hand of darkness- drakes should take care of any of the infantry and crisis suits so I see the main problem being the riptides and Hand of darkness will more then likely kill one the first time you assault with it

What rumors of a super heavy? I would love to see that!

 chillis wrote:
You could always get a BL ally and equip some HQ with hand of darkness- drakes should take care of any of the infantry and crisis suits so I see the main problem being the riptides and Hand of darkness will more then likely kill one the first time you assault with it

hmm il look into aquiring that pdf. Thank you.


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lynxstrife wrote:
What rumors of a super heavy? I would love to see that!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36553-New-Expansions-the-new-Rumour-Range-by-Pest_Pone

To be frank, cultists aren't good at spamming vs tau...

You could demon ally and swap them for daemonettes and get a far more functional troop choice on the cheap...throw in Masque for the HQ and she'll nerf that overwatch

Renegade_commander wrote:

 chillis wrote:
You could always get a BL ally and equip some HQ with hand of darkness- drakes should take care of any of the infantry and crisis suits so I see the main problem being the riptides and Hand of darkness will more then likely kill one the first time you assault with it

hmm il look into aquiring that pdf. Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lynxstrife wrote:
What rumors of a super heavy? I would love to see that!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36553-New-Expansions-the-new-Rumour-Range-by-Pest_Pone

If you don't know/want the stats for the artefact I can message you

karandras15 wrote:
To be frank, cultists aren't good at spamming vs tau...

You could demon ally and swap them for daemonettes and get a far more functional troop choice on the cheap...throw in Masque for the HQ and she'll nerf that overwatch

yeah my poor cultists. I generaly use them as a meat wall and to sort of "bait" my opponents with a squishy target into where my weapons are most affective. the ignores cover from the teleporting deathstar is killing them pretty bad tho.


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 chillis wrote:

Renegade_commander wrote:

 chillis wrote:
You could always get a BL ally and equip some HQ with hand of darkness- drakes should take care of any of the infantry and crisis suits so I see the main problem being the riptides and Hand of darkness will more then likely kill one the first time you assault with it

hmm il look into aquiring that pdf. Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lynxstrife wrote:
What rumors of a super heavy? I would love to see that!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36553-New-Expansions-the-new-Rumour-Range-by-Pest_Pone

If you don't know/want the stats for the artefact I can message you

yeah that would be cool. I have vague knowledge of the supplement i just wont spend money on it.

Well after reading that post I agree with a lot of people saying that super heavies would unbalance the game.

When me and my buddy play (him chaos me tau). His forge fiends backed up with a warp smith give me tons and tons of headaches. Since his warpsmith lower my ADL save from 4+ to 5+. Hell drakes for the flamers and some random fun from him give me a headache.

lynxstrife wrote:
Well after reading that post I agree with a lot of people saying that super heavies would unbalance the game.

When me and my buddy play (him chaos me tau). His forge fiends backed up with a warp smith give me tons and tons of headaches. Since his warpsmith lower my ADL save from 4+ to 5+. Hell drakes for the flamers and some random fun from him give me a headache.

i would love to play test a warsmith but im not sure ge would help me so much against the deathstar. Farsight+shadowsun+librarian tigurious+7 crisis suits of various wargear and 14 drones all ignoring cover, teleporting 24" a turn, splitting twin linked fire everywhere with plasma guns, melta guns, missile pods and twin linked pinning pulse carbines off drones.


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And in my honest opinnion with deathstars like that and screamerstar which iv playtested and beat the previously mentioned tau farsight bomb with, the game is already unbalanced.

I am not familiar with the new marines book, but how do they teleport 24" a turn that seems odd but this is 40k. At my FLGS death stars and some list are not allowed. Mainly net list to prevent people from being dorks. Also to promote being original and using your brain.

Hmm... Farsight Bomb with Tigerius for Gate of Infinity.


You already have two Helldrakes and that is a pretty effective counter especially considering that once he uses Gate of Infinity they are completely clumped up. Thrust moves are done as a unit, just as running is. If you have a model that cannot run, the unit cannot run. If you have a non JetPack model, the unit cannot make a Thrust move RAW.

That simple clarification should be enough to neutralize his Deathstar with a little bit of RAW.

Its highly unlikely that he has enough Intercepting AA to stop you from choosing your attack angle and Flaming a ton, even if he has an Iridium Commander in the unit to Tank. One turn should devastate the unit.

If he can't get get a 2+ cover with his location Plasma Cannons from the Oblits should be nasty. Should be ~7 on a Hit.

The Riptides are nice, and can put out some damage but if you can get something into CC with them they are toast, or worse case just pump them full of Lascannons and MM until you can corner them. But, they are definitely lower priority than nuetralizing his deathstar.

Failing that, he can't have alot of scoring units as he is dropping ~1400+pts on his Deathstar and Riptides.

What does the rest of his list look like?

 Zagman wrote:
Failing that, he can't have alot of scoring units as he is dropping ~1400+pts on his Deathstar and Riptides.

And this is the weakness of most "strong" Tau lists. I don't care if I lose 50% of my SoB on wiping out the Tau Troops if it means they can't win on objectives anymore.

Good catch on the JSJ btw, never come up for me as we seldom use allies in my group. ;-)

Hate JotWW!! My ripetides cry from that!

But on topic CC riptides is great way. And dont forget that for far sight to tank wounds he has to be in front. Hr can not be in the middle and try and tank all those wounds.

Have you thought of a spawn+biker lord? They can counter charge him when he drops near your important stuff and then kill 4-6 of them. They are even reasonably durable to the shooting of the death star.

Helldrakes are useful if you can hit them from a different angle than the iridium commander (you should be able to). You should be able to kill ~2-3 of them per drake until he kills your drakes.

Have you thought of an allied daemons detachment? The scoring troops are a bit tougher with their 5++ inv (pink horrors and plaguebearers are pretty good). The GUO can make a great line buster and distraction by DS into the opponent's field. You could then get a grimoire to buff your daemons whether they be oblits, pink horrors, spawn, etc. With a 3++ reroll 1's or some Tzeentch spawn/oblits with a 2++ you could take some serious punishment even from a farsight bomb.

 Zagman wrote:
Hmm... Farsight Bomb with Tigerius for Gate of Infinity.


You already have two Helldrakes and that is a pretty effective counter especially considering that once he uses Gate of Infinity they are completely clumped up. Thrust moves are done as a unit, just as running is. If you have a model that cannot run, the unit cannot run. If you have a non JetPack model, the unit cannot make a Thrust move RAW.

That simple clarification should be enough to neutralize his Deathstar with a little bit of RAW.

Its highly unlikely that he has enough Intercepting AA to stop you from choosing your attack angle and Flaming a ton, even if he has an Iridium Commander in the unit to Tank. One turn should devastate the unit.

If he can't get get a 2+ cover with his location Plasma Cannons from the Oblits should be nasty. Should be ~7 on a Hit.

The Riptides are nice, and can put out some damage but if you can get something into CC with them they are toast, or worse case just pump them full of Lascannons and MM until you can corner them. But, they are definitely lower priority than nuetralizing his deathstar.

Failing that, he can't have alot of scoring units as he is dropping ~1400+pts on his Deathstar and Riptides.

What does the rest of his list look like?

wow good catch on the raw i will definately bring that to light tonight.

His troops are bare minimal. 2 firewarrior squads on foot and 2 sm scout squads with ccw on the outflank. I tried focusing on them last game and managed to wipe all his scoring units out but he tabled me.




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I must give credit to my friends skilks with the list he knows how tobpick appart my army and hes won more tournaments than i care to count.

Renegade_commander wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Hmm... Farsight Bomb with Tigerius for Gate of Infinity.


You already have two Helldrakes and that is a pretty effective counter especially considering that once he uses Gate of Infinity they are completely clumped up. Thrust moves are done as a unit, just as running is. If you have a model that cannot run, the unit cannot run. If you have a non JetPack model, the unit cannot make a Thrust move RAW.

That simple clarification should be enough to neutralize his Deathstar with a little bit of RAW.

Its highly unlikely that he has enough Intercepting AA to stop you from choosing your attack angle and Flaming a ton, even if he has an Iridium Commander in the unit to Tank. One turn should devastate the unit.

If he can't get get a 2+ cover with his location Plasma Cannons from the Oblits should be nasty. Should be ~7 on a Hit.

The Riptides are nice, and can put out some damage but if you can get something into CC with them they are toast, or worse case just pump them full of Lascannons and MM until you can corner them. But, they are definitely lower priority than nuetralizing his deathstar.

Failing that, he can't have alot of scoring units as he is dropping ~1400+pts on his Deathstar and Riptides.

What does the rest of his list look like?

wow good catch on the raw i will definately bring that to light tonight.

His troops are bare minimal. 2 firewarrior squads on foot and 2 sm scout squads with ccw on the outflank. I tried focusing on them last game and managed to wipe all his scoring units out but he tabled me.




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I must give credit to my friends skilks with the list he knows how tobpick appart my army and hes won more tournaments than i care to count.

No problem.

Killing his scoring is always a good idea, if he can't score, it becomes incredibly difficult for him to win.

Make sure you spread out your army. Alot of his weapons in the Bomb like to split fire on close targets. Spread out and make his decisions more difficult. Oblits on the Far flanks, make it almost impossible for him to kill one and jump to the other the next turn. Don't group up, kill his troops, and use the Drakes to flame the crap out of his Bomb.

Also, he will fail to get Gate of Infinity one if four games or so.


You are playing a nasty opponent playing a nasty list. It also excels at picking apart builds like yours and struggles against other armies more so.


I'd definitely bring up the RAW with the Jetpacks. I know it came up once with me when I had O'Vesa attatched to a unit of Wraithguard. I chose to abide by the RAW as I read it and got charged by a GUO I planned to Jump away from.

Tau can still win without troops if they table you. Don't think that this has no chance of happening.

Martel732 wrote:
Tau can still win without troops if they table you. Don't think that this has no chance of happening.

Very constructive Martel. Care to complain some more about how overcosted and underpowered PA and T4 are? How any good Tau or Eldar build will just table you by Turn 3, so why play? Some more Woe to me and my PA? I bet you can bring up your BA and how they've been getting shafted for years.

Or, how about you supply something useful to the thread.

I honestly have no idea what to do in this situation. I know Tau players try that to give "suggestions", but I think they are just trying to get people to keep playing them.

Can you puzzle out a way to approach them without taking massive amounts of damage and then having them not get to choose what you get to assault?

If not, then you are stuck playing their game: shooting, which they win as well. Even with a LR, you are still stuck assaulting the unit THEY choose.

When I say "they will win" I mean 70-75% of the time, which is not much a contest, if you think about all the variables. Even after C:SM dropping, Tau/Eldar still have 70%+ win rates at the tourneys.

We all await your meta-breaking advice on the topic. And the list could be worse: they could have Eldar instead of marines. And I have found the Farsight bomb easier to handle than the Tau just lining up and deleting anything that gets close.

I'd also like to point out to the OP that all the real deathstars have invuln saves, so your heavy blast won't help you.

Also for the OP: what is this guy using the marines for? Just Tiggy?

I've thought long and hard on this, as a local wanted to run a similar army. Daemons can do a good job if you can get a herald with the loci of beguilement into CC and kill that Buffmaster commander. not the best, but it does seem fun and could work. Otherwise throw lots into whatever you do. CC in there with lost of big scary things, challenge when you can with something less important. Again using Daemon allies put a Nurgle DP/GUO with balesword into that unit and you will kill one piece a turn. You challenge with him and he either is going onto the piece your in base contact with or one of his ICS which is only Farsight, Ovesa, and Allied HQ (usually either buffmaster or Tigirius).

Off topic, someone I noticed mentioned shadowsun and farsight in this deathstar. That is impossible. Under the latest FAQ for the Enclave they cannot have Shadowsun or Aunva in the same army.

Well i think no matter what happens im getting my iron warriors baneblade for apocalypse anyways.

Make sure they follow the rules I just saw that in the FAQ.

Eh, if you are losing 85% of the time against this list, you need to tweak your list. Tau are not impossible to beat, it's just hard. You just should not be losing that much.

Here's what I focus on against Tau:

1) Riptides main vulnerability seems to be leadership checks. Tzeentch jump pack Lords with daemon weapons are useful in this role, find a way to get them up the board and go at them. Some of the artefacts from the Black Legion codex can help you here. Terminator armor doesn't make up for mobility.

2) Bike squads can be more effective than Heldrakes when used correctly. Bring larger squads to prevent them from getting shot up. You only need 3 Khorne bikers to survive long enough to take out a pathfinder squad in one turn.

3) Tau can't shoot what they can't see. Camp MoN Chosen with Plasma around objectives, preferably in cover and behind something. Wait for them to come to you, they will eventually drop in some crisis suits or move their pathfinders into an unfavorable position.

4) The artefact in the BL supplement with the large blast that automatically does d3 penetrating hits to vehicles is huge against Tau.

5) I like havoc squads with lascannons against Tau. They always come up big when I include them in my lists. It seems like the priority for Tau players is to take out assault units that are charging towards them, which gives me opportunities to get these guys into position.

I am looking at getting a Spartan assault tank for my forces, just to get my assault units into range to beat up on Tau. Might be worth looking at for the AV14 and 5 hull points. Counts as a heavy support choice, but it does have some firepower.

Martel732 wrote:
I honestly have no idea what to do in this situation. I know Tau players try that to give "suggestions", but I think they are just trying to get people to keep playing them.

Can you puzzle out a way to approach them without taking massive amounts of damage and then having them not get to choose what you get to assault?

If not, then you are stuck playing their game: shooting, which they win as well. Even with a LR, you are still stuck assaulting the unit THEY choose.

When I say "they will win" I mean 70-75% of the time, which is not much a contest, if you think about all the variables. Even after C:SM dropping, Tau/Eldar still have 70%+ win rates at the tourneys.

We all await your meta-breaking advice on the topic. And the list could be worse: they could have Eldar instead of marines. And I have found the Farsight bomb easier to handle than the Tau just lining up and deleting anything that gets close.

I'd also like to point out to the OP that all the real deathstars have invuln saves, so your heavy blast won't help you.

Also for the OP: what is this guy using the marines for? Just Tiggy?

DrammaQueen. Boo fricken hoo.

I know what data you are referring to. The Eldar/Tau combination winning 71% of its tournament matches. Tau/Eldar is 68%.

You fail to mention that SM/SM 65% and Tau/SM is 67%. And Tau is 59%... Lower that SM. *Crickets*

This data gives us an idea, but it is far from conclusive especially with how the tournament Meta has changed. Its based off of combinations that have played 20+ games, without a bigger sample size a few undefeated winners will greatly skew the results. Either way, its not as bad as you make it out to be, and players playing other codices still have a chance. We can't expect perfect balance and whiners don't make the problems any better. They likely do the opposite. We've seen armies stand out before, IE Pure Tau a couple of months agao, they've been knocked down with Eldar and SM's release. The Meta will keep on changing.

I've given the OP my advice. Use RAW to greatly limit his opponent's strategy. Seems like sound advice to me.


Also, whoever mentioned the Farsight Enclave FAQ, it doesn't apply, this is a Codex: Tau Empire book list the OP's opponent is running.

lets focus people.

So I'm not big up on the chaos codex but i know it a bit.

Get yourself 2 daemon princes with wings.

Get 2-3 20 man squads cultists (naked as much as possible)
20 man marines
get some oblits
an aegis
2 drakes.
maybe a 1000suns unit

line up the aegis at the edge of your deployment and spread the marine out preventing a drop getting in (its a large blob) and the juicy obilts at the table edge. force him to target the front marines.
Yes the aegis wont do anything against the bomb but it does vs tides (provided there are no finders as you have suggested).

Use the 2 princes to get those tides i suggest the MoT to increase invuln save personally.

use the drakes to mop the floor of the troops.

fire everything at that bomb the first chance you get.
yes you are going to lose stuff.

depending on the unit it can shoot up to 7-8 targets the drones farsight and shadowsun (with 1 weapon) must shoot the main target so something will essentially be deleted.
This leaves shadow sun 1 shot and 6 suit targets.

You could make it impossible to get in 12" of the juicy targets therefore reducing the efficiency.

have 1 troop choice in reserve after the initial onslaught.

i will show you exactly what i mean if you want and help you with a list.

The blob must consist of 6 weapon suits and 1 buff suit. the buff suit cant do anything (shooting wise) he'll put it at the back which means every wound affects the durability.

Boniface wrote:
lets focus people.

So I'm not big up on the chaos codex but i know it a bit.

Get yourself 2 daemon princes with wings.

Get 2-3 20 man squads cultists (naked as much as possible)
20 man marines
get some oblits
an aegis
2 drakes.
maybe a 1000suns unit

line up the aegis at the edge of your deployment and spread the marine out preventing a drop getting in (its a large blob) and the juicy obilts at the table edge. force him to target the front marines.
Yes the aegis wont do anything against the bomb but it does vs tides (provided there are no finders as you have suggested).

Use the 2 princes to get those tides i suggest the MoT to increase invuln save personally.

use the drakes to mop the floor of the troops.

fire everything at that bomb the first chance you get.
yes you are going to lose stuff.

depending on the unit it can shoot up to 7-8 targets the drones farsight and shadowsun (with 1 weapon) must shoot the main target so something will essentially be deleted.
This leaves shadow sun 1 shot and 6 suit targets.

You could make it impossible to get in 12" of the juicy targets therefore reducing the efficiency.

have 1 troop choice in reserve after the initial onslaught.

i will show you exactly what i mean if you want and help you with a list.

The blob must consist of 6 weapon suits and 1 buff suit. the buff suit cant do anything (shooting wise) he'll put it at the back which means every wound affects the durability.

2 deamon princes would be pretty nasty. My opponent has zero pathfinders and zero vehicles. I have 80 cultists i can blob up as well. 6 oblits, 2 drakes, 20 marines. Most of the things mentioned. I dont own any bikes or spawn.

It sounds like theres alot of good competitive builds popping up for chaos


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Heres a copy of my list iv won many games with. +++ l.v.o tourny list (1749pts) +++
+++ 1750pt Chaos Space Marines 6th Ed (2012) by SN Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++

Selections:

Chaos Space Marines 6th Ed (2012) by SN (Primary Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ + (217pts)

* Chaos Lord (217pts)
(Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independent Character)
Blight grenades (5pts), Gift of mutation (10pts), Mark of Nurgle (15pts), Sigil of corruption (25pts), Veterans of the Long War (5pts)
* Terminator Armour (92pts)
Combi-flamer/-melta/-plasma (7pts), The Black Mace (45pts)


+ Troops + (736pts)

* Chaos Cultists (100pts)
(Champion of Chaos)
18x Autopistol, Champion's upgrade (10pts), 2x Flamer (10pts), 20x Squad models (champion included) (80pts)


* Chaos Cultists (100pts)
(Champion of Chaos)
18x Autopistol, Champion's upgrade (10pts), 2x Flamer (10pts), 20x Squad models (champion included) (80pts)


* Chaos Space Marines (268pts)
9x Chaos Space Marine (117pts), Icon of vengeance (25pts), Meltagun (10pts), Meltagun (10pts), 9x Take a CCW (18pts), Veteran of the long war (10pts)
* Aspiring Champion (33pts)
(Champion of Chaos)
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Combi-flamer/-melta/-plasma (10pts)
* Chaos Rhino (45pts)
(Repair)
Combi-bolter, Combi-flamer,-melta,-plasma (10pts), Searchlight, Smoke launchers


* Chaos Space Marines (268pts)
9x Chaos Space Marine (117pts), Icon of vengeance (25pts), Meltagun (10pts), Meltagun (10pts), 9x Take a CCW (18pts), Veteran of the long war (10pts)
* Aspiring Champion (33pts)
(Champion of Chaos)
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Combi-flamer/-melta/-plasma (10pts)
* Chaos Rhino (45pts)
(Repair)
Combi-bolter, Combi-flamer,-melta,-plasma (10pts), Searchlight, Smoke launchers


+ Fast Attack + (340pts)

* Heldrake (170pts)
(Daemon, Daemonforge)


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I guess it cut the rest off.

2 heldrakes 170 each

2 squads of 2 obliterators with mon and votlw 158pts each

1 predator tank with 3 lascannons 140pts

I'll admit I don't know the point cost of chaos units but general rule I would go with is force him to be 24" from you table edge/obilts thereby reducing the damage he can do to them. He'll be frustrated he can't really make the most of it. And he'll be in optimal range of repercussions.

Does this opponent set the bomb up in reserve (I assume not)?

I don't know exactly how much but having so many cultists/marines spread out takes up a lot of room.
If possible get a cheap tank in the middle at the back to make him want to come get it. He'll then need to be within 18" to hit it.
If your line goes up to 24" from the edge he'll be within about 10" of you after jumping back. Your marines then jump the barricade and murder him in CC. Then with his army effectively neutered you clean up.

Also I suggested drakes but there are plenty of options that might be better like Nurgle bikes.

But that would be my advice.

 Zagman wrote:
Also, whoever mentioned the Farsight Enclave FAQ, it doesn't apply, this is a Codex: Tau Empire book list the OP's opponent is running.

Yes, but its Tau allied with the Enclave, as he mentioend Farsight Riptide Deathstar in his original statement, and latter on someone mentioned Shadowsun in the deathstar, out of either book this is impossible.

 arinnoor wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Also, whoever mentioned the Farsight Enclave FAQ, it doesn't apply, this is a Codex: Tau Empire book list the OP's opponent is running.

Yes, but its Tau allied with the Enclave, as he mentioend Farsight Riptide Deathstar in his original statement, and latter on someone mentioned Shadowsun in the deathstar, out of either book this is impossible.

Or you are reading his post incorrectly.

Its pretty clear he is talking about a Tau Empires list with Farsight, Shadowsun, Full Bodyguard and Drones, aka Farsight Deathstar also knows as the Farsight Bomb with Tigerius attatched. That army also has two Riptides.

It it was a Farsight Enclave's army, I'd be more concerned about it not meeting the requirements like mandatory Crisis as Troops, or mandatory Bonding Knives...

 arinnoor wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Also, whoever mentioned the Farsight Enclave FAQ, it doesn't apply, this is a Codex: Tau Empire book list the OP's opponent is running.

Yes, but its Tau allied with the Enclave, as he mentioend Farsight Riptide Deathstar in his original statement, and latter on someone mentioned Shadowsun in the deathstar, out of either book this is impossible.

my opponents list is as follows:

Primary detachment:
warlord: farsight + 7 bodyguard and drones
2nd hq: shadowsun

Troop: 2 minimum firewarrior squads NO transport.

Heavy: x2 riptides with skyfirw+intercepter.

ALLIES: ULTRAMARINES

HQ: cheif libby tigurious.

Troop: x2 sqout squads withh ccw+pistols


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Iv already prooven i can beat the list with the screamerstar by doing it but i dont own the daemons