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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/04 19:29:27
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Slippery Scout Biker
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Hey fellow 40k players!
I was just wondering if Grey Knight lists with terminators were any good in a competitive environment or am I better off just sticking with Coteaz, henchmen, and triple DK with storm ravens?
Any input would be greatly appreciated
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/04 19:32:55
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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draigowing, that is all
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Wyzilla wrote:
Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.
Burn the Heretic
Kill the mutant
Purge the Unclean |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/04 19:42:59
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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The Coteaz/henchmen and DK lists are the go-to for competitive GK at the moment, but if, like me, you're not a fan of running an Inquisition list, then Strike Squads are the next best option, as getting bodies on the field is the priority. All-terminator lists struggle on a tournament level thanks to masses of fire from tau and pretty-much-rending-everything on eldar. So while they certainly have a place, I wouldn't build a list around them.
Comparing strikes and termies basically results in the fact that, point for point, strike are far more durable in the tournament meta, as when saves don't matter against Tau and Eldar, more bodies do more than tougher ones. Looking at offensive capabilities, strikes have an advantage in that they put out more shots per point, but termies do more damage in CC. On the whole, strikes are generally more useful.
I'd say that you only want termies after you have around 30 strikes, as there are certainly advantages against the armies that aren't ignoring your save most of the time. They can provide a nice assault unit and are infinitely more survivable against AP3 weapons, and also make nice bunkers for HQ units.
So to answer the question in one sentence: At a tournament level, a termie-based list will not do well, but they certainly have a place in a non-inquisition list once you've got the core of a list built.
Hope that helps.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/04 20:07:05
Subject: Re:Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Slippery Scout Biker
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Ah ok. I'd love to make them work because they are so cool but ill just stick with the inquisition list for now.
It seems like even in an army with 30 strikes at its core there are better options than the termies like some anti air or a DK or something.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/04 20:15:35
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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There are better options than termies, but I am firmly of the mindset that it's more important to pick the models you like rather than what is most effective. So as I say, they're certainly usable should you wish to play them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/05 00:04:20
Subject: Re:Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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For certain kinds of lists they work very well, Draigowing obviously but a Ghostwing will benefit from terminators as well.
I use terminator-heavy armies because I like the models, stats, and fluff, and I've loved them since I started Daemonhunters. The biggest key to their effectiveness is getting them into CC as soon as possible, where there is less AP2 and they can do more damage.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/05 00:57:18
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Disguised Speculo
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What else works well with a henchman list? I think Inquizzy stuff is fantastically cool and its good to hear its effective as well, but Dreadknights look pretty terrible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/05 09:33:55
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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Dreadknights aare great if you give then a Teleporter for a 1-use 30" shunt move and JP movement for the rest of the game. Shoving 2 of these monsters forward on Turn One can put massive pressure on a gunline army, which takes heaps of fire of the rest of your dudes.
Give then a Heavy Incinerator for Torrent S6 AP4 goodness (in other words, kills tau and eldar like flies) and a Greatsword if you have the points, for 4 re-roll hit, re-roll wound S10 attacks on the charge.
Fast, shooty and punchy, Dreadknights can add great hitting power to a GK list, inquisition or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/06 08:57:47
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Dakka Veteran
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Paradigm wrote:Dreadknights aare great if you give then a Teleporter for a 1-use 30" shunt move and JP movement for the rest of the game. Shoving 2 of these monsters forward on Turn One can put massive pressure on a gunline army, which takes heaps of fire of the rest of your dudes.
This is true. Just remember though that while DK can withstand huge amount of volume of fire, plasma (and other AP2) weapons can take DK down very fast. For example, 2 plasma-vets squad in RF range will kill DK easily.
Paradigm wrote:Give then a Heavy Incinerator for Torrent S6 AP4 goodness (in other words, kills tau and eldar like flies) and a Greatsword if you have the points, for 4 re-roll hit, re-roll wound S10 attacks on the charge.
It's actually better than that: 5 attacks on charge: 3 base, +1 for 2 CCW weapons ( DCCW's are not special weapons anymore) and +1 for charge.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/06 17:55:02
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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Thanks for correcting that, I assumed DCCW and and the Greatsword didn't stack If they do, even better!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/06 19:27:46
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Lieutenant Colonel
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ill run all termie lists with my GK's, or list with some termies, but I know they are not thebest choice
far too fragile,far too expensive, 8 bolter henchmen is more durable then one termie, and has more dps output.
some lists will crumple under a massed 2+ assault, but most will just kill you before you get tehre.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/06 21:28:04
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
Grand Rapids Metro
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I've run 40 Terminators with A Grand Master at 1850 to great effect.
I've yet to play an army that can handle that much Terminator.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/06 21:28:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/06 21:35:43
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dakkamite wrote:What else works well with a henchman list? I think Inquizzy stuff is fantastically cool and its good to hear its effective as well, but Dreadknights look pretty terrible.
Dreadknights are awesome to play with, but do look terrible. You need to convert them. Check my gallery for an easy conversion (80+% of it was ideas from some other dakka-ite I can't remember right now). There are other conversions around too. Don't let the awful-ness of the standard DK model hold you back!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/06 22:13:49
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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ductvader wrote:I've run 40 Terminators with A Grand Master at 1850 to great effect.
I've yet to play an army that can handle that much Terminator.
I've killed 30 before with BA. It's not a stretch to think that list could have killed 40. Pretty sure Eldar can kill 40 as well. I mean, when every lowly trooper has rending, that makes it pretty easy right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 00:42:05
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
Grand Rapids Metro
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Martel732 wrote: ductvader wrote:I've run 40 Terminators with A Grand Master at 1850 to great effect.
I've yet to play an army that can handle that much Terminator.
I've killed 30 before with BA. It's not a stretch to think that list could have killed 40. Pretty sure Eldar can kill 40 as well. I mean, when every lowly trooper has rending, that makes it pretty easy right?
No.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 00:53:56
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
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ductvader wrote:I've run 40 Terminators with A Grand Master at 1850 to great effect.
I've yet to play an army that can handle that much Terminator.
I'd watch out for a Grav BIker spam list with 5-man MSU biker units each wielding 2 gravs and a combi-grav for 145 points. The grav alone kills 3.33 terminators on the opening salvo, and 2.22 each turn after that. A typical list could include 5 of these at 1850pts, meaning ~17 termies dead the first turn and 11 dead each following turn. This is in a vacuum, of course, but shooting at terminators will mean the unit makes its cost back in the first shooting attack, and that your terminators would on average be gone after 3 turns. This is without mentioning the grav spam command squad averaging 4.5 dead terminators EVERY shooting phase.
Just saying Grav provides quite the hard counter against GK termie lists. I'm both a C: SM player as well as a GK player, so my feelings about this are mixed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 01:02:50
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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People seem to forget that grav guns, "everything rending" eldar and "no cover low AP" tau guns still dont ignore invuls, and termies got that.
Not that grav spam are in any way TAC themselves. they would be decimated by the simplest green tide as they got not nearly enough small guns.
And that if you catch the on assault, you wiped the squad likley without a single loss. and a shauntknight can do it with ease.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 01:03:53
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 01:28:10
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Grav bikers still have their twin linked bolters to deal with poor save units, it's not like they're powerless before them. I think they're not TAC because, like the Ravenwing Banner of Devastation lists, despite being ridiculous against most armies they still get eaten alive by Heldrakes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 01:34:30
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Twin-linked bolters? that's your answer?
They don't really solve the issue when outnumbered 5 to 1 by ork boys, or when there is a gaunt farm.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 02:16:37
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
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BoomWolf wrote:People seem to forget that grav guns, "everything rending" eldar and "no cover low AP" tau guns still dont ignore invuls, and termies got that.
My calculations above include the 5+ invul that Grey Knight Terminators have. In Three turns, five grav bike squads wipe 39 terminators on average, WITH invuls taken. Two of these squads kill a NDK in one shooting attack. Grav is anathema to Grey Knights unless you run henchmen.
BoomWolf wrote:Twin-linked bolters? that's your answer?
They don't really solve the issue when outnumbered 5 to 1 by ork boys, or when there is a gaunt farm.
A proper biker list is backed up by at least two thunderfire cannons. These can easily thin out a horde. Besides, a White Scars biker unit should gladly charge a thinned out orc unit as even a 30 strong boyz mob would average 3 dead bikers if they ALL got to attack, which they will not due to some being out of range. This is including overwatch. A mob whittled down to below 15 would probably see themselves beaten, especially by a joint charge from two bike units. Let us not forget that bikes are capable of picking their fighta due to superior mobility. In the end, T5 is a wonderful rhing.
But Thunderfire cannons is the true answer to hordes.
PS. A 5-man bike squad would average 10 dead boyz a turn with bolters and an assault. Two of these units will chew through a boyz mob in two rounds, and then Hit&Run to repeat against a new target.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 02:20:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 02:24:43
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
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A grey knight terminator list can be alot of fun if you max your psycannons and psybolt ammo. Also, for HQ's you should probably go for Inquisitors (who can also be in terminator armor with another Psycannon if you want) to get some good Divination mixed in to your army. Then round out with a couple of Dreadknights and you can have alot of fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/07 03:09:20
Subject: Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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ductvader wrote:Martel732 wrote: ductvader wrote:I've run 40 Terminators with A Grand Master at 1850 to great effect.
I've yet to play an army that can handle that much Terminator.
I've killed 30 before with BA. It's not a stretch to think that list could have killed 40. Pretty sure Eldar can kill 40 as well. I mean, when every lowly trooper has rending, that makes it pretty easy right?
No.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that a good Eldar list would massacre 40 terminators. I suppose grav bikers are not a good thing for them, either.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 03:09:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/08 05:14:37
Subject: Re:Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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I used to play a Termie-heavy GK list and did quite well. That was before the new Tau, Eldar, and SM codices. Now I'm not sure if it's worth it to try. The math is just not on our side. Eldar just put out so much dakka and are so mobile that they make one of GK's major weaknesses (slow, mid-range weapons unless you take a lot of uber-expensive teleporters) even more glaring. Tau are the slower, but longer-ranged version of Eldar; they can kill too many things before they have a chance to get into Tau lines and start pounding. Now the Grav Gun has put the nail in the coffin, as it were. Too many shots that kill too easily, and they're very inexpensive, particularly on bikes.
All of my previous whining aside, one or two units of Terminators or Paladins will be OK, and can be very very useful, if you can keep them matched up with the things that can't easily hurt them. I think it may just take a lot more forward thinking and strategy to stay competitive with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/08 05:23:44
Subject: Re:Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Bear in mind that while plasma, rending, and grav do bad things to terminators, it still takes 18 BS4 bolter shots to kill one per mathhammer.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/08 12:57:59
Subject: Re:Are Grey Knight Lists With Terminators Competitive?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
Grand Rapids Metro
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Homeskillet wrote:I used to play a Termie-heavy GK list and did quite well. That was before the new Tau, Eldar, and SM codices. Now I'm not sure if it's worth it to try. The math is just not on our side. Eldar just put out so much dakka and are so mobile that they make one of GK's major weaknesses (slow, mid-range weapons unless you take a lot of uber-expensive teleporters) even more glaring. Tau are the slower, but longer-ranged version of Eldar; they can kill too many things before they have a chance to get into Tau lines and start pounding. Now the Grav Gun has put the nail in the coffin, as it were. Too many shots that kill too easily, and they're very inexpensive, particularly on bikes.
All of my previous whining aside, one or two units of Terminators or Paladins will be OK, and can be very very useful, if you can keep them matched up with the things that can't easily hurt them. I think it may just take a lot more forward thinking and strategy to stay competitive with them.
Thank you...no one is taking into account the strategy involved.
Deepstrike, Scout, and Outflank alone destroy the math hammer approach to beating them.
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