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I was playing in a game last week (my Lizardmen vs Daemons of Chaos). I had a skink chief on a Stegadon with OTS. We played it that impact hits and thunderstomps forced successful ward saves to be rerolled. I've since been told that this is not the case as they are distributed as per shooting attacks, but I can't see how impact hits or stomps can cause damage if you're not in base to base contact and therefore touching the bearer of the OTS. So I'd like to see what you're take on this is. I asked on Lustria online and I got a resounding yes , I'm sure if I ask on Daemons forum it will be an emphatic no , so I thought I try a couple of non affiliated forums.
Thanks in advance.

Are you talking about an entire unit with a ward save, like Phoenix Guard or Savage Orcs? Otherwise this is moot... it's normally only characters and such that have ward saves, and they have to be in the front.

In the case of RnF with ward saves, if memory serves, stomps and Tstomps can only be made by models in b2b with enemies, and I think there's a fair case that this implies it must the models the stomper is touching that are taking the wounds.

Seeing as how the skink priest on a stegadon is treated the exact same way as a character mounted on a monster, I unfortunately dont see it as OTS working.


Characters riding on monsters do not grant their mounts use of their wargear. OTS would only come into effect for the attacks the skink priest himself dealt out.

@ Malleus I was fighting Daemons of chaos so every single model in the army has a ward save.

@ Eihnlazer The Other Trickster Shard says enemies in base contact with the bearer must reroll successful ward saves. If a character is in base contact with a greater daemon any attacks by rank and file would (if causing a wound) would enforce a successful ward save reroll.

My main question is whether the impact hits and stomps force ward save rerolls.

Ahh in that case then they would have to reroll. Being in b2b with the character is all that is required and you are in b2b when the charge move is finished.

The problem there (I'm kind of copying the feedback from the national forum there WarpSolution) is that impact hits and stomps are "distributed as per shooting" and there's simply no clear rule saying if the guys in CC are the ones taking the hits
I'm not sold on the answer there (I'll have to think about it for WarpCon though ... In case the question arises), no clear definite ruling
It would make sense that it's the guys in contact, but the rules don't confirm it (nor do they infirm it)

Distributed as shooting does not prevent the model from being in b2b.

In fact the only thing it effects is stuff like hitting kroxigars or characters on a 5+ after all hits are recorded.

Inpact hits are CC attacks as are Stomp, however, While a character on a Monster is considered to be one model, Thier rules do not carry over to each other, Because the Priest is on top of the Steg, he is not considered to be in B2B, The Steg is the model in B2B, As such the OTS is usless on a priest while he is ontop of the Steg. This is basically the same as a Slann can not transform using Transformation of Cardon, becasue he is not considered to be on Foot.

I initially thought it was a definite yes, but I can see the "you can't guarantee that the people huit were in b2b because it was distributed" argument.
I think my response would be "My Stegadon was in b2b with your unit. That is what caused the wounds. Don't be TFG".

cawizkid wrote:
Inpact hits are CC attacks as are Stomp, however, While a character on a Monster is considered to be one model, Thier rules do not carry over to each other, Because the Priest is on top of the Steg, he is not considered to be in B2B, The Steg is the model in B2B, As such the OTS is usless on a priest while he is ontop of the Steg. This is basically the same as a Slann can not transform using Transformation of Cardon, becasue he is not considered to be on Foot.

This is incorrect.

The character can not share wargear with the monster, he is definately without question still in b2b though.

@cawizkid: The Skink and the Stegadon are one model.
The Other Trickster's Shard says "models in base contact with the bearer".
If the Skink isn't in base contact, then he's immune to close combat.
I'd just let him have the Other Trickster's Shard.

@Eihnlazer: They're not "sharing equipment". The Other Trickster's Shard doesn't say "...against wounds caused by the bearer".
If the Stegadon charged the unit, with a block of Saurus to one side and a unit of Cold Ones to the other, any models in base contact with the Stegadon would have to re-roll successful Wards caused by the other units, too.


@chickenbane: This is a tricky one. Are the models struck by Impact Hits and Stomp--which are distrubuted as shooting--considered to be in base contact with the model inflicting the hits?
...I guess I'd have to say no. If you rammed a Squig Herd or Giant Rats and Pack Masters, you'd have to randomize the hits into the unit, and now there's no way to prove which of them were in base contact or not, unless all of that kind of model in the unit were in base contact with you.

Warpsolution wrote:
@cawizkid: The Skink and the Stegadon are one model.
The Other Trickster's Shard says "models in base contact with the bearer".
If the Skink isn't in base contact, then he's immune to close combat.
I'd just let him have the Other Trickster's Shard..

I can fully understand the want for this, but as Character Special does not apply to the monsterous mount, and Vice versa, it does not.

Warpsolution wrote:
@Eihnlazer: They're not "sharing equipment". The Other Trickster's Shard doesn't say "...against wounds caused by the bearer".
If the Stegadon charged the unit, with a block of Saurus to one side and a unit of Cold Ones to the other, any models in base contact with the Stegadon would have to re-roll successful Wards caused by the other units, too.


@chickenbane: This is a tricky one. Are the models struck by Impact Hits and Stomp--which are distrubuted as shooting--considered to be in base contact with the model inflicting the hits?
...I guess I'd have to say no. If you rammed a Squig Herd or Giant Rats and Pack Masters, you'd have to randomize the hits into the unit, and now there's no way to prove which of them were in base contact or not, unless all of that kind of model in the unit were in base contact with you.

The BrB Clearly states that Impact hits and stomps are special attacks the are CC attacks. you just do not get to pick who they hit. So If you are gong to allow the OTS to work It has to apply to all attacks.

There is no sharing. That concept doesn't matter.

The item itself has an effect. If you're in B2B, friend or foe, you reroll successful ward saves. Though it does say MODELS in B2B. Which is a bit contradictory with distributing as shooting anyway. A 2 rank unit will never have models in B2B that are distributed as shooting...from the owner.

The priest on the mount can CC the enemy unit so he's in B2B. The item takes effect.

As for who is in in B2B for distributing as shooting, I'm not sure. I have a sub-question. If you had a conga line of 10 Bloodletters (B) and in front was a Skulltaker (S) Hero and they are hit by a Steggadon (G) who do you roll the impact hits against?

G
V*impact hit*V
S
B
B
B
B
B...5 more B

The Letters aren't in B2B with the Steggadon, Skulltaker is. His unit is, but you're told to remove from the rear. Skull has better stats, armor.

So if you roll against the Letters and distribute vs. them, then it makes sense the shard works vs. them.

That said, if someone were to attack from the rear vs. the bloodletters, I don't see how the shard would force a reroll. Which gets pretty odd.

cawizkid wrote:
Inpact hits are CC attacks as are Stomp, however, While a character on a Monster is considered to be one model, Thier rules do not carry over to each other, Because the Priest is on top of the Steg, he is not considered to be in B2B, The Steg is the model in B2B, As such the OTS is usless on a priest while he is ontop of the Steg. This is basically the same as a Slann can not transform using Transformation of Cardon, becasue he is not considered to be on Foot.

I really, really, wish this was true, as it would keep priests alive forever, and I could run an Engine of the Gods as a character choice again.

BUT, the priest is in base to base. His base is the Steggadons base when he is mounted on it. All models (friend and foe) that touch the base must re-roll ward saves.
He's not conferring this rule to the steggadons attacks, nor to that of the skinks crew. It's a magic item that affects models touching you; not a item that affects your attacks.

Also, lets not confuse removing models from the rear ranks with actually attack models in the rear ranks. I'll pull the page references in the morning; off to bed now.

-Matt

question!

IIRC isn't distributed shooting only applicable when a unit has been reduced to a 5 man frontage?

if so, isn't the stegadon (with its quite large base) going to be in base contact with all the enemy models (since it has to rank up in a mannar that brings the max number of models to bear (also this is based onteh steg being the only one on that arc)

so I do not see an issue here for the impact hits.

as for the stomp, this is where it gets tricky but I have a soloution that both makes sense and sticks with the rules (albiet a description of why we take models from the back of units)

count the number of guys in B2B, work out the number of hits, seperate a number of hits up to the number of guys in B2B and roll to wound them seperatly, then roll any outstanding afterwards.

this satisfies the logic of CC with the rest of the rank and file filling in the gaps while not over powering the effect of the OOT

@cawizkid: as Duke said, the Other Trickster's Shard does not affect the character. It affects the models in base contact with him. If one of those models gets wounded by the Skink, or the Stegadon, or a miscast from the wizard in its own unit or any other wound ever, it has to re-roll successful Ward saves.

And they are close combat attacks. That get distributed as shooting.
I just looked at the Squig Herd rule again. It says shooting is randomized (1-4 Squig, 5-6 Herder), but that in close combat, you must attack models you're in base contact with.
Huh.

@DukeRustfield: I'd have to say that the Shard doesn't work on those Bloodletters. They're getting hit by those Impact Hits and Stomp, but they're still not in base contact.

@nutty_nutter: I think so. "Distributed as shooting" means that, until a unit is reduced to less than 5 models, not including characters and the champion, those attacks can never hit the character and the champion.

With that in mind, I guess I'd have to say that the Other Trickster's Shard does influence Impact Hits and Stomp; they're distributed as shooting, but no where does that indicate that any models but the ones in base contact are getting hit.
I mean, the same goes for regular close combat attacks. I can't find anything, one way or the other, that tells us which regular rank-and-file guys are dying. There's a line under "Removing Casualties", but it's just a descriptor, not a rule.

...until we get to situations like Duke's Skulltaker/Bloodletter conga-line. Then things get switched up.

with with the skulltaker thing wouldnt it work like this:


d6+1 impact hits-4 hits on average.

distributed as shooting would mean you roll 4 dice and for every 5-6 the skulltaker takes a hit but could look out sir on a 2+. The 1-4's and successfull look out sirs would hit bloodletters.

Only the skulltaker is in b2b so only he has to reroll saves.

You don't get LoS for impacts so I know that's not right. I'm not sure any of that is right in fact.

Page 71 – Special Rules, Resolving Impact Hits.
Add the following sentence to the end of the third paragraph:
‘“Look Out Sir!” rolls cannot be taken against Impact Hits.’

That just makes the whole thing confusing. Why say they are distributed as per shooting if they didnt want to allow look out sir?


well i guess that means its easier to kill characters now with it.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Why say they are distributed as per shooting if they didnt want to allow look out sir?

To prevent deliberate allocation, I would suppose.

 kirsanth wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Why say they are distributed as per shooting if they didnt want to allow look out sir?

To prevent deliberate allocation, I would suppose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there so few models left that it's possible to hit a character with (thunder)stomp, then aren't there too few characters to allow for a "Look out, Sir!" roll, anyway?

The "if" in your question is exactly why the rule is there.
If no, then there is no allocation by the shooting rules.
If yes, you cannot allocate deliberately - but the lack of LoS actually makes it BETTER at taking out characters, it would seem even with shooting allocation.

Maybe this'll help:

P.93 under CHAMPIONS AND SHOOTING: "A champion cannot normally be targeted by enemy shooting attacks--he can only be removed as a casualty if there are no other rank-and-file members of his unit left."

P.99, under SHOOTING: "'Normal' shooting attacks...cannot hit a character in a combined unit if there are five or more rank and file models of the same troop type...If there are fewer than five rank-and-file models left in the unit...the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on a model..."

I still want to know who gets hit and who tests and does the trickster shard work on my example. The steg is running into a hero but the shots are allocated against letters. The skink isn't in B2B with the letter MODELS, though he is with the unit.

shard is very specific, hen eeds to be in base with the model for it to apply, although chances are your in base with at least one letter so I would get my opponent to roll his particular save seperatly as it would be effected.

the rest he gets to make normally I supose. do keep in mind that the musician and standard bearer are counted as normal also just others take up the gear to take thier place so they count towards the number of RnF that your in base with.

Also, i thought command models (champ, banner, musician) HAD to be in the front rank first and foremost.

They do, unless you have Made Way! in combat.

The thing people like Warpsolution keep forgetting while they are quoting Shooting rules is that while Impact hits are "distributed as per Shooting attacks", They are NOT shooting attacks, They are still Close Combat attacks. Close Combat attacks can only be made at models that are in B2B. As such, as long as one Unit member is in B2b (Rank and file, Musician, Standard, or Champion) and 5 or more of them excluding the champion models are in that Unit, All impact hits are applied to the Unit. Attacks are distributed as per Shooting, so they must go into the Unit, as the Unit will protect the Champion/Character. Then all wounds would have to be rerolled, as models would step up and then be in B2B when wounds are applied. If however the model is only in B2B with a Character, you can only apply CC attacks to that model this includes Impact hits. (Remember you are not allowed to attack models that you are not in B2B with.) This would be rare, Conga Line is probably the one of the only time that comes to mind, Possibly a Multi-charged unit. Even a flank charge into a model that does not fit into a unit, would have as many models as possible unit slide over to fill in the Gaps.

Page 42, Resolving Unusual attacks.: .....Inpact hits made by a charging chariot (covered in the special rules Chapter) Such hits are resolved using steps 4 5 6 of the rules for shooting attacks. The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks,. These are discussed in the close combat chapter. (page 46)

Bottom of page 75, finally Impact hits are Close combat attacks... (although of an unusual type)......

@DukeRustfield:"Models in base contact with the bearer (friend or foe) must re-roll successful Ward saves" --seems cut-and-dry to me.

@nutty_nutter: thanks to Step-Up (and the fact that the game doesn't let you pick out specific rank-and-file models), being in contact with one regular model means you're in contact with them all.

@cawizkid: nothing you've quoted proves anything. Show me the page and line where it gives you permission to ignore the rules I've quoted on page 93 and 99.

P.48, under WHO CAN STRIKE (emphasis mine): "Normally, a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact. The most common exception is if he is making a supporting attack."

So yes. Impact Hits are Close Combat attacks. That are distributed as Shooting. Show me where we're allowed to deviate from those rules.

I would disagree on the basis that all wounds are rolled together, I would be more inclined to use my solution than to say that he is in base with all the models when he clearly isn't.

that being said that very well may be a hywpi as opposed to raw