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Hello Dakkanauts,

I'm building a Wych Cult DE army - I don't expect it to be tournament-level competitive, but I would like it to be semi-viable. With that in mind, I'm choosing some uncommon units, but I would like to make the most out of them.

I'm a huge fan of Lelith Hesperax, the sculpt is great, and so is her ability to mow down entire squads by herself. My question is, how can I best deliver her into melee combat without being immediately pasted?

Here's what I was thinking:
- Lelith Hesperax - 175 pts
- 3 Grotesques with Liquifier gun, 1 Aberration with Flesh Gauntlet. - 260 pts w/ DT
- In a Raider with Flickerfields (Possibly Night Shields to avoid being wrecked turn 1)
Total: 435 pts.

Lelith's absurd amount of attacks should deal with any large GEQ squads, and contribute towards MEQ. Additionally, The Penetrating Blade gives her a shot at TEQ. The Grotesques are excellent in melee, and the Aberration can soak up any challenges. The 4+ Instant Death from the Flesh Gauntlet should, with any luck, prove to be pretty threatening to any characters without EW. The Grotesques can tank a pretty hefty amount of shots, so even if a squad is wiped in melee, they should survive one round of shooting - Unless of course your opponent dedicates a truly ridiculous amount of firepower to the group, in which case, that leaves the rest of your army free to table them. Additionally, Lelith's grenades ignore armor as well, and with a liquefier gun you could can soften up a squad for assault, or hamstring a nearby unit.

435 points is a pretty hefty cost. If you don't get into melee you're going to regret it. I realize that this squad would be better with a Haemonculus, but that's not the point. I want to make Lelith work in my army. I think if played correctly, with the correct accompaniment, it could work. Let me know what you guys think!

Cheers

A lot of it boils down to what else is in your list. The biggest rain on your parade is if your transport gets shot down right out of the gate and Lelith and her big, beefy friends are forced to trudge across the field, eating bullets all the way.

What point level do you intent to play this at? How much target saturation can you afford?

I think it is an exceptionally high cost in points to pay for 4 models, but hey, more power to you if you can make it work.

This is a good way to use her, considering how hard she is to use. But something I could highly recommend is having an allied farseer on jetbike with Mantle and stone to fly along side and buff the unit to heck with 1 roll on div and 2 rolls on fate, gunning for fortune or doom. I once had Leilith and her blood brides (6 gays, 2 gauntlets) charge a unit of 20 Khorne Berserkers with re-roll everything (To hit with prescience, to wound from doom and armour saves from fortune) and all I can say is that the Marines didn't stand a chance. Lelith on her own killed 8 guys, and the gauntlets had over 15 attacks together on their own.

Also, Leilith no longer ignores armour with her ranged weapons, due to FAQ. I mean C'mon, the rule is called Penetrating BLADE, the fact she could in the first place was an over sight. You want the funniest way to run Leilith? Have her allied into an Eldar list and stick her in a unit with Jain Zar, you WILL have over ten attacks no matter what you face!

Thank you for the responses!

@Curran: I'm planning on playing this at a roughly 1250+ point level. I'm building a few different lists for different values. This particular squad is damn expensive, like you mentioned, so I'd need lots of fire support and other good damage dealers. I'm hoping that Night Shields/Flickerfields and maybe a screening raider will keep it alive until it's deep. Even if I pull a Skaredcast and turboboost it in so it gets wrecked, then jump out, it might be enough to get up close

The rest of my list, tentatively, will include Reavers with Heat lances for AT, Venom/Raider Kabalites for AI/MC, and some fillers here and there. I'm still a bit new to this, so the list building is taking some time, although that's also because I want it to be well made, rather than just thrown together. Are there some must-takes that anyone believes will be good with Lelith and/or this squad?

@Alex: I'll have to look into taking allies - I haven't gone down that road before, but it might be just what I need to make this walking death machine survivable.

Frankly I'm not surprised that got FAQ'd. Last I heard it hadn't, so I was just going with it.

Jain Zar is an awesome idea. How about a seer council on foot with Eldrad, Jain Zar, and Lelith in it. Expensive as all get but if you get the right powers you will be unstoppable.

I run Lelith in a venom with 4 bloodbrides and 5 wyches in a 2nd venom alongside.

It works well for me if I can get some cover first turn and sneak them into charge range. I use the wyches to take any overwatch and then Lelith does her stuff.

Its always fun to use and seeing the slender Lelith eat a squad of SM single-handed is a joy all day long.

It is certainly an expensive unit, and if the raider goes down then your screwed six ways to Sunday. Night shields may be worth it to prevent an alpha strike, but I would also take aethersails. Turbo boost the raider and use the sails to get extra distance. If it wrecks then it wrecks and charge next turn. For the cost of the upgrade and points level your playing, the flesh gauntlet could be dropped to a venom blade. Lets you re roll to wound against most enemies, and always wounds on 2. The flesh gauntlet has a hard time instagibbing priority models as most have a strong save, high toughness, eternal warrior or any mix of the above.

Once lilly is in combat, you should have little problem shredding an enemy unit.

@Ansacs: I've got to be honest, I love the idea of those two in a squad together. I don't have enough to afford the new Eldar Codex, unfortunately, so I'll have to put that idea on the backburner until I've turned a few more tricks.

@Captain Blood: Now that's not a bad idea. The point cost of a kitted out squad of Hekatrix and Wyches in Venoms/Raiders is roughly equivalent to that of Lelith with Grotesques. This may be preferable as I'm dividing my power up a bit, and not putting all of my eggs in the single kill-squad. Not to mention, would be MUCH fluffier with my Wych Cult army.

If I did go down that route, I might end up going with Raiders with Disintegrators/Dark Lances so that the vehicles can deal with hard targets while the troops inside hack up the opposing infantry/MC's.

@Dr. Serling: Yes, it certainly is putting a lot of points into one group of units, making things difficult if it gets shot down. You're right, night should would probably be a must-take. Aethersails aren't a bad idea either, I glossed over them while I was going through the book, but in hindsight, they might be just what I need.

I also forgot the fact that instagibbing with Flesh Gauntlet is going to be difficult because of the saves, toughness, etc. In that case, Venom Blade is probably going to be more cost-effective as well as more useful.

Thank you all for the helpful tips! I better go buy some more Wyches. Here's to hoping DE assault becomes more viable when the new codex drops. If it does.

Definitely watching this thread, got a Lelith coming my way and want to know how to get good mileage from her.

Might just save her for Zone Mortalis though, since I have no transports

Whens the new codex rumoured for?

Oh boy, she'd be crazy on that. That's just tight quarters Kill team type play, right? As for the codex, I heard a rumour about it coming out sometime Q4 2014. I can't verify that, although the time frame seems reasonable.

Just an update on builds: I took a look at some different options, and it seems that Hekatrix Brides are likely the best escort option. Grotesques are damn killing machines, but you're putting so many points into a single squad (what with Lelith being 175 points right out of the gate anyway) that whatever DT you put them is going to have a lot of firepower dedicated towards it. Lelith with a squad of Hekatrix in a Venom is about half as expensive. Combine that with what Captain Blood brought up, Wych escorts, and you have a pretty flexible group of units. While Lelith does require getting to assault to do good damage, the other squad of Wyches can be outfitted with Haywires for a mere 10 points, meaning they can be assigned to their much more common role of tank hunting, if need be. Also, you get two Venoms that can still size down the enemy with a pretty impressive volume of poisoned shooting.

While I've never been real fond of Beastmasters, this may be a good unit to consider. A Beaststar would require the enemy to divide their attention between the two, or leave one unfocused, allowing it to get in close and do a lot of damage.

Another good point to bring up here - and forgive me, this may have been FAQ'd, but as far as I know it has not - is the use of Phantasm Grenade Launchers to assist Lelith and the rest of the Cult to get into assault. Since PGL's count as defensive grenades, as long as you're charging from within 8", you should receive the Stealth cover save that it grants. Additionally, charging through cover (as Wyches are certainly not bad at) will give you a pretty impressive save, combined with PGL. Top that with FNP if you have managed to secure a pain token, and you're pretty well off against overwatch.

Not necessarily kill team, but yeah, generally 1000pt or less, and all indoors, with modified rules for overwatch and blast weapons and restrictions on vehicles, fliers and barrage - makes all sorts of usually eh units come into their own.

I would have thought Wyches would suck hard charging through terrain? Their main bonus looks like its I6, but they'd be swinging last if they charged through it? Or have I messed up the difficult terrain rules?

Oh good deal, that sounds like a lot of fun, I might have to check that out.

If I recall correctly, Wyches are actually quite excellent at charging through terrain. Fleet makes them more adept at charging at distance, and plasma grenades allow them to strike at full initiative.

Here's a post from the Dark City regarding it:
"I only now realized that, didn't occur to me when I read about the defensive grenades yesterday. Indeed, Wyches charging through cover will be the way to use them, since assault is now handled via rolling 2d6 just as before when charging through difficult terrain. Except now it's better, since Fleet allows to reroll those die and we get Stealth from PGL defensive grenades while still hitting first thanks to assault grenades. Welp, who cares about Overwatch now? Wyches certainly don't!" -Siticus

Lol I come from Orks, don't even know what grenades do! I'm guessing from that post that Assault grenades mitigate INT 1, do they also get rid of disordered charge allowing you to keep the bonus attack? If so... thats pretty good

ZM rules can be found for free on google, forgeworld stuck up a pdf free of charge because they're cool like that.

Edit: Looked that gak up, still get disordered but stealth and INT 6 is all good by me!

Don't forget to take Haywire grenades for fritzing vehicles - always worth the points.

@Captain Blood: No doubt. at 2 points per model, it's a steal in small squads, and makes them pretty damn threatening, even to Blessed Hull

@Dakkamite: Thanks for looking that up, it's good to get a verification! Also it's nice that FW would throw those up for free. That sort of business practice always makes me want to buy the products, more.

One last thought I was having regarding getting Lelith into Assault range: Taking the Duke/Retrofire Jets could let you dump the transport right into a key position. Right behind LOS blocking terrain behind/to the side of their deployment zone might keep you from getting gunned down too quickly, and the next turn you can assault right into the midst of them. Give them some good targets on your side of the board, and they'll have to either split up their focus, and make for easier kills, or devote all their firepower to one flank, and leave the other free to mop up.

One recommendation I have is to bring another squad (perhaps wyches or warriors) inside another raider nearby. Just in case you lose Lelith's Raider turn 1, you can have your wyches/warriors abandon their ship and Lelith and Co. can jump in the other raider.