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Iron Hands, hoping to enter Throne of Skulls:


Master of the Forge = 90

Scouts x5 w/ Camo and Sniper Rifles = 70
Scouts x5 w/ Camo and Sniper Rifles = 70
Scouts x5 w/ Camo and Sniper Rifles = 70

Assault Centurians x3 w/ Hurricane Bolters = 190
Assault Centurians x3 w/ Hurricane Bolters = 190
Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer/TL Heavy Flamer in Drop Pod = 150

Devastator Centurians x4 = 250
Devastator Centurians x4 = 250
Hunter = 70

Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad Gun = 100


Spot on 1500, thoughts?

Which upgrades are you giving your Devastator Centurions?

None, mods are too expensive for what they do IMO, Heavy Bolters have the range and the shots to deal with most things.

You should drop two dev cents to give each squad grab cannons and omniscopes. You have no answers to marine saves but one dread. Also drop both assault cents for a land raider, any flavor, and get t hammer termites instead. The flamers will ruin your charge and they have no invul.

It's pretty weak at the moment. Apart from Rending on the Sniper Rifles, you have no ranged weapons with Ap3 or better. In assault, you might do some proper damage, but the issue is getting there, seeing as Cents can't run.

With that in mind here's the changes I'd make:

1: Drop a Dev from each squad. The points spared will allow you to give the rest of the unit Grav Cannons.

2: I would drop a unit of Assault Cents, and free up some points elsewhere for a Land Raider. If you take a Crusader, you can transport 4 Cents and the MotF giving his usual IWND bonus, and provides a sturdy transport which they can assault out of.

3: Even with Camo Cloaks in cover, I can see the Scouts being wiped out quite easily. Your objective holders are rather flimsy at the moment.

4: I'm not sure what the purpose of the Dreadnought is. 2 Flamers is good, but you're putting yourself right in Melta/Plasma range. Perhaps you should consider losing the Drop Pod and having him as a long range AT unit, with a Lascannon instead of a Heavy Flamer.

Drop one scout squad, one squad of cent devs and 1 squad of assault cents and lower the remaining squad of dev cents to 3. Use those points for a land raider to get your assault cents across te board, give at least 2 grav cannons to you dev cents and a stormtalon.

Having too many cents that can't even make it to the enemy in time is a huge points sink . IMO, your list is not taking advantage of the IWND rule

3 cents

Drop the dread. He does not give you anything. Use those points to buy more troops. Your troops are very, very fragile. Many players will just go for them and ignore the rest of your stuff. For gods sake, find points for LSS if your going with scouts and drop their sniper rifles. Your primary goal is to keep them alive, as that's what going to let you score.

You want meltaguns on your assault cents. That gives them such a nice extra threat. If a flyer within 12" of them, you have a good chance to hit it with a melta shot, for example. Cent assaults are not for assaulting -- they are for short range shooting. I explain a lot of the mathammering here.

You can lose the quad gun. They don't bring you that much. The ADL even has limited value, as your cents will be wanting to get into bolter range to use their hurricane bolters. In fact, you might want to even drop the hunter. Your problem is not AA -- most of it won't be able to really hurt you. The air calv that can hurt you wont care about a single hunter and quad gun.

I disagree that you need to add the grav cannons. HBs plus hurricane bolters will actually do a lot of work on opponents. If anything, you might want to give the sergeant lascannons/ML and an omiscope, so you can have him slam vehicles while the other 3 hits infantry.

Proxy the army before you buy! That many cents would buy a lot of tacos at taco bell! Use magnets on your cents. Don't let them get stuck in one configuration.

Basically the plan is to hope no one brings vehicles or flyers or heavy infantry or monstrous creatures or ranged firepower? To me that is not a great idea to be competitive.

Centurions can be competitive but not this way. Assault Centurions need a Stormraven or Landraider to get them into assault. But you're better off with Honourguard. Hence why they're not very competitive. TH/SS Terminators are so much better against MCs its not even funny (close combat is the only place where S10 AP2 is common place and that's a big problem for CC Centurions) whilst against everything else Honourguard just rule too much for their mere 25points cost.

Shooty Centurions are lots of points far far far too many points to be wielding just Heavy Bolters. So you need them to pump out serious damage to justify the points cost. That means either Grav Cannons or Lascannons and Missile launchers. The later option is only really worth it in an IF list where they get tank hunters. 3 S9 and 3 S8 shots a turn rerolling armour pen destroys vehicles and with a good range. Though they need a cover save to survive return fire. So take them in a ranged gun line that sits 48" from the enemy behind an Aegis.

The other option is the Grav Cannon. This has a major weakness in 24" range which couples with no invun makes them very vulnerable to assault to Demolisher cannons etc. With no overwatch you have to be careful with them. In this case they need a Character with a Storm Shield to tank wounds or Tigirius with Divination giving the unit a 4++ (later being a risk probably not worth taking in a tournament).

A 24"/36" range is fine for many engagements. The trick is you need to be in the middle of the board.
FMCs are not a problem. TL hurricane bolters and HBs will drop them from the sky. The only other flyer thats a big risk are the vendetta.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Centurions can be competitive but not this way. Assault Centurions need a Stormraven or Landraider to get them into assault.

This is a prime example of someone who has gotten the role of assault centurians confused. It happened to me at first as well. Sadly, assault centurians are very poorly named. Their role is not in assaulting, but is instead mid/short range support.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Shooty Centurions are lots of points far far far too many points to be wielding just Heavy Bolters. So you need them to pump out serious damage to justify the points cost. That means either Grav Cannons or Lascannons and Missile launchers.

There is an important concept here called Dakka Per Point that phantommaster should be aware of. What it means is that just because something hits harder, does not mean that its the best investment.

So what are the DPP of HB cents vs Grav Cents?
......................HB.................Grav....
GEQ.............71.1.................48.5
MEQ............20.7..................41
TEQ.............8.......................28

So the answer is -- grav cents are much better vs MEQ and TEQ and much worse against GEQ. Which is better? Well, that depends on your local Meta. Are you facing kroot walls or riptide spam?

Now, you could give them the TL LC and ML options. Those are for killing armor, not infantry. Their DPP values vs infantry are the pits. That might fit your needs, depending on your local meta.

Note -- FlingitNow, I'm not trying to pick on your statements. I am sorry if it comes across that way. What I'm trying to do is point out that your making a misconception that is quite often seen by players. I've spent tons of time researching/playing this game and have picked up on a few insights.

This is a prime example of someone who has gotten the role of assault centurians confused. It happened to me at first as well. Sadly, assault centurians are very poorly named. Their role is not in assaulting, but is instead mid/short range support.

Admittedly I had not really considered them as a short ranged shooting unit. Given that is what Tac marines and Sternguard do as scoring units and roughly equally efficiently. However with SnP they'll still need that SR or LR to deliver them into midfield.

The issue with using Devastator Centurions against GEQs is again that you can get that elsewhere in the list cheaper and better. A Dakka Pred for example heck even a Whirlwind. Generally GEQs sit behind an Aegis with a 2+ cover or in a vehicle...

The Grav Cents are for dealing with vehicles and decent save units. The HB cents can't do that job they instead do a job that nearly everything in the codex can do (they for it better than Tac marines granted but not as well as other units). HB Cents just aren't a competitive option.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Admittedly I had not really considered them as a short ranged shooting unit. Given that is what Tac marines and Sternguard do as scoring units and roughly equally efficiently. However with SnP they'll still need that SR or LR to deliver them into midfield.

Again, we should be looking at it in a matter of a per-point basis. One assault cent brings the same as 4 bolters and 1.3 meltaguns (TL guns are 33% more effective than non-TL guns) Therefore for 60 points your getting the same firepower as 5 marines. Given that 5 marines with 1 MG would cost you 80 points, the cent is actually cheaper. In addition the cent is fairly threatening in assault against the right targets. The cent is as durable as 4 MEQ vs most targets. (this is because a 2+ save is twice as durable vs AP4+ weapons than a 3+ save, and they have 2 wounds). Given the T5 of cents, they might acutally be just as durable -- depending on what your getting shot by.

Therefore, assault cents are actually quite decent at the same role as TAC marines. I know its an odd thing to get your head around, but that's how they should be best used on paper.

Your right in the sense that they have a hard time getting into position. I've been brainstorming for a way to infiltrate them or scout them. Sadly there is nothing that I've seen that lets you do that. 2. They can move up 6" on turn one, then another 6" on turn 2 -- as that gives you a 36" Area of Influence from your deployment zone. That's decent but not great.

Now some opponents might turtle and ignore the cents. That is a counter to them. That's also a counter to any tactical marines sitting on foot. You could drop them off in a stormraven so they can get into the fray by turn 2. You might also just use them board denial. There are multiple ways to do it

 FlingitNow wrote:
The issue with using Devastator Centurions against GEQs is again that you can get that elsewhere in the list cheaper and better. A Dakka Pred for example heck even a Whirlwind. Generally GEQs sit behind an Aegis with a 2+ cover or in a vehicle...

Again, lets look at the DPP values. You will find that dakka preds are not that hot. Whirlwinds are decent, but can be scetchy. A TFC is usually the better bet. However, this OP wanted to make a thematic list, and that's what we should be helping him do.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Grav Cents are for dealing with vehicles and decent save units. The HB cents can't do that job they instead do a job that nearly everything in the codex can do (they for it better than Tac marines granted but not as well as other units). HB Cents just aren't a competitive option.

Again, I suggest researching the concept of DPP. You will find that your view of the game can change dramatically. This is because not all units are priced equally. GW pulls the point costs out of their ... uhh... thin air.
A 70+ DPP vs GEQ is actually quite good. Its almost twice as good as wave serpents.

Now, I do see GEQ outside transports or not getting a 2+ cover save quite often. Perhaps that a difference of meta. I usually see kroot, daemon calvary, IG blobs of 40+ models or guardians. In most cases they are vulnearable to shooting.

I agree that grav cents are good. One of the advantages the OP can use is the omniscope to diversify his shooting, as I mentioned. You can equip the searg differently so he can target different units. For example, you could give him the grav amps and the other guys the bolters. Its all how you want to work it.

Now, I given the role of the assault cents, I'm kind of in the agreement with FlingitNow The list already has a lot of anti-GEQ, and needs something to handle marines and riptides. Grav cents are hell on wheels on this.

Labmouse you are missing the point. Tac marines are a lacklustre unit at best, without a DP or Rhino they are just horrid. Yet you hold them up as the thing the Assault Cents replace. The assault cents aren't troops, tac marines are for holding objectives and filling mandatory troops choices. That's it, they are a tax on the army that ideally we wouldn't have to take. Assault Cents can not replace tac marines as tac marines are essentially forced on us and Assault Cents aren't meaning we can ignore them.

You're comparing 65 points of optional spend versus 80 points of forced spend. So yes the assault Cents are better but not by enough the warrant their inclusion.

As for the Dakka pred it does all its shooting from 36"+ and has front armour 13 meaning S6- is useless against it. Granted its not as hot as it was. TFC is brilliant because it gets round Aegis, snipes important wargear and again does this from a long range.

Likewise the tac marines mentioned can do the job of GEQ. Again as mandatory spend. You talk like you've researched not played. You talk like I don't understand the maths I do. You also seem not to understand the maths. Let's compare those DPPs. HB Cents are better by 46% against GEQs a unit that lots of the army can deal with. Against MEQs the Grav Cents are better by 98% see how the difference against a more important unit is double. Go to TEQ and the difference is 250%!!!! Then let's consider the best hammer units out there Dreadknights or Riptides we're looking around the 800% mark and Wraithknights it is even worse. Remember no tac squad is ever going to be able to deal with those.

I rarely see Kroot certainly not any that worry me in the slightest. Guard blob squads with Azreal and power axes are the only concern but they are s points sink and have some terrible matchups. Guardians are never seen without a Wave Serpent by competent players.

He can build a list around Centurions but he needs a plan for the list as a whole that the Cents perform a role in. A 48" range gunline is a good build for marines these days with Tau mainly a 36" range army and even Eldar primarily looking at the 36" category. Or a typical midfield marine list with Grav Centurions. But he needs a clearer plan and he'll need some AT and AA bothof which he is currently almost entirely lacking. With only scouts as scoring he can't just ignore the likes of Helldrakes or Nightscythes.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Labmouse you are missing the point. Tac marines are a lacklustre unit at best, without a DP or Rhino they are just horrid. That's it, they are a tax on the army that ideally we wouldn't have to take.

In 5th edition, I would have agreed with you, but in 6th they are not that bad. Let me illustrate why
* Vehicles are less common, infantry spam is more common. This increases the value of the bolter
* Bolters can rapid fire 24" while moving
* Marines went from 17 points per model to 14 points per model.
* Chapter tactics gives marines new advantages previously not enjoyed.
* Krak grenades are much better against vehicles
To give an example of this in action, in my Skies of Death list the hurricane bolters are doing nearly as much damage on my stormravens as the rest of the armament on it combined.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You talk like you've researched not played. You talk like I don't understand the maths I do. You also seem not to understand the maths.

I attend multiple GTs a year, and roughly 10 RTTs a year. The players in my area include some of the most competitive and skilled players in the northeast. I get plenty of game time in I am sorry if I sounded insulting in my post. I am not sure if it's intentional, but you are coming across rather insulting.

In that vein, I think your way off in that the best hammer units are Dreadnights or Wraithknights. Have you played against a screamerStar or seer Council? They will take your lunch money far worse than a wraithknight every will.

Finally, did not you read my entire post? I stated that grav cannons might be better for his list.
Now, given the role of the assault cents, I'm kind of in the agreement with FlingitNow The list already has a lot of anti-GEQ, and needs something to handle marines and riptides. Grav cents are hell on wheels on this.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I rarely see Kroot certainly not any that worry me in the slightest. Guard blob squads with Azreal and power axes are the only concern but they are s points sink and have some terrible matchups. Guardians are never seen without a Wave Serpent by competent players.

In every case, the HB is a good tool for those. Though I find your comment about Kroot to be odd. Being worried about kroot is like being worried about cultists. Kroot are good at winning the game for Tau players, and most TauDar lists you will see have some (and jetbikes)

 FlingitNow wrote:
A 48" range gunline is a good build for marines these days with Tau mainly a 36" range army and even Eldar primarily looking at the 36" category. Or a typical midfield marine list with Grav Centurions. But he needs a clearer plan and he'll need some AT and AA both of which he is currently almost entirely lacking. With only scouts as scoring he can't just ignore the likes of Helldrakes or Nightscythes.

At 48" range list that can deal with Tau? What would you do?

I'm not trying to be insulting sorry if I came across like that. I felt you were being condescending.

Vehicles are less common in 6th but still a backbone of many list (Eldar for instance). That's one of the great things about this edition lots of different types of army are viable.

As for marines they were 16 points and are now 14 points but they used to include the cost of upgrades (flamer and ML) so the effective price of a boltgun marine was 14 points, you were just forced to pay for upgrades that you now can choose not to take. Bolters and even the heavy weapon on marines have gotten better but Helldrakes and Tau have made power armour a lot worse particularly when not in a transport. This is why Tac marines still need transports.

Screamerstars are just dumb. Not great in a Tournament because if you go 2nd against a long range army you lose, if you're against GK Stormravens you lose. Otherwise you practically autowin against lots of armies unless you fail that grimoire. Seercouncils fear Grav Centurions far more than HB ones. As you wound on 2+ rerolling . Farsight bomb and O'Vesastar are more competitive whilst Tripdreadknights and double Wraithknight are still tough.

As for a 48" range list I came up with this a while ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/553111.page

OK thanks for the replies, I find that keeping the scouts behind the defence line for a 3+ cover normal and 2+ if I go to ground is often sufficient to keep them alive. Add that to bolster defences they should be pretty tough. The MotF can sit with his BS5 with the quad gun and next to the Hunter. This is reasonably cheap and keeps to a decent theme. The dreadnought was a distraction to drop in turn one, it'll massacre anything with a 4+ or lower sv. (mainly Tau). Then I thought people will want to either try and out shoot, or many armies will advance to wipe the troops, this is where the Cents come in, decent midfield defence for the Scouts. A mass of hurricane and heavy bolters with some flamers as well. The main problem was a lack of heavy support choices at this points level.

Considering what you've said, how's about this?: (Also don't forget Cents get a 'lucky' 6+ FNP )


Master of the Forge = 90

Scouts x5 w/ Camo and Sniper Rifles = 70
Scouts x5 w/ Camo and Sniper Rifles = 70
Scouts x5 w/ Bolters and Heavy Bolter in Speeder Storm w/ Heavy Bolter = 108

Assault Centurians x3 w/ Hurricane Bolters and 2x TL Meltaguns in LR Crusader = 450

LR Crusader = 250
Devastator Centurians x4 - Sarg w/ TL Lascannon/ML and Omniscope = 290
Hunter = 70

Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad Gun = 100


Total of 1498, I liked the idea of the extra weapons on the dev's, but grav cannons are ruined for me by the range and the extra cost as I'd rather keep them stationary(ish). The assault cents have been given melta's and a transport. One scout squad has been given a speeder as suggested, but I was torn between heavy flamer and ccw's or heavy bolter and bolters.

Thoughts now?

The list looks really confused still. Part gunline part midfield. 1 solitary Landraider. Solo Landraiders just aren't viable anyone can deal with a Landraider. You need two at least or none. 2-3 Landraiders causes a lot of lists problems.

Then you've got CC scouts but without the CC upgrades that make them really worth it (power maul on the Sergeant and combi-flamer to supplement the HF). But they are the only real assault element.

You've Grav Centurions with no invun. This is a bad idea.

You need to first decide what you want the list to do as a whole. Then configure your Centurions to support that. What type of list for you want to run?

I originally had a second LR instead of the grav centurians, had a sudden change of mind. They would sit behind the defence line in midfield, but I can edit the LR back in no problem. As I pointed out I'm not sure on the CC scouts so I'll change them back to shooty ones, it was just that their BS is a bit crap for that.

I want the Centurians to support the basic fire base, as I know it's weak. This would be easy if I could add masses of dev centurians, but the slots won't alllow it with the Hunter as well. And I understand the benefits of some midfield players. I wanted to miss out Flyers completely, whilst keeping some form of anti-air.

What type of LR would suit the list best now? I can have any variant, including a Redeemer w/ Multi Melta.