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I have always like the idea of hellhounds but found them to be overpriced points wise for what your are getting on the table.
F12 S12 R10 with 6S 4AP projecting flamer for 130 Points just seems like not the best best use of points. Especially when you can take dedicated transports for 55 Points. You can exchange your mulit-laser for a heavy flamer for free and put a heavy flamer instead of a heavy bolter for free. However the chimera has 2 less side strength.

So I was wondering what you guys think do you, think 2 chimeras with heavy flamers at 110 points is a better use of points then one hell hound? You could give them both extra armor and still be at 140 points. (extra little bonus Chimeras are amphibous and hell hounds aren't)

My answer: Why not take both?

Both Chimeras and Hellhounds are great, but fulfil entirely different roles. Chimeras exist primarily to ferry and protect vet units, but can still shoot (and make great gunboats when filled with plasma), but the Hellhound trades that for more mobility, the ability to take a MM (always a nasty surprise when a flamer tank meltas something) and 2 points of side armour.

There are those that will tell you that Vendettas are the only FA choice worth considering, but Hellhounds again fulfil different roles, so once more the comparison is somewhat misleading. Hellhounds are brutal against entrenched infantry (and with xenos on the rise AP4 is far more relevant these days). They also have the advantage over flamer-Chimeras that they don't have to be in guaranteed charge range or present side armour to line up a good shot on a unit. that is not lined up in front of you.

In summary: Hellhounds and Chimeras work perfectly well on their own, but running them together means you get so much more from both. The armour saturation will help massively for both units, the Hellhound adds some much-needed horde control to mech lists, and the Chimeras mean that the hellhound is less of a target from the off.

Simply put, the price of a torrent ap3 flamer template on a av 12 fast platform is quite cheap compared to the rest of the book.

Torrent flamers are far better than normal ones, and of course the hellhound is fast.

 juraigamer wrote:
Simply put, the price of a torrent ap3 flamer template on a av 12 fast platform is quite cheap compared to the rest of the book.

Torrent flamers are far better than normal ones, and of course the hellhound is fast.

It's AP4, I think you're confusing it with a LRR. If it was AP3 you'd see a lot more of them. But your point is still correct, Torrent makes it worth it.

I find all three of the fast attack tanks to be effective. My favourite is the devil dog closely followed by the hell hound. Even the bane wolf has done its fair share of damage. But chimeras in my opinion lack the range (torrent) to effectively bring their weapons to bear. I prefer to load it up with HB and out a stubber on top and just act as heavy weapons platform for my troops.

 Paradigm wrote:


There are those that will tell you that Vendettas are the only FA choice worth considering, but Hellhounds again fulfil different roles, so once more the comparison is somewhat misleading. Hellhounds are brutal against entrenched infantry (and with xenos on the rise AP4 is far more relevant these days). They also have the advantage over flamer-Chimeras that they don't have to be in guaranteed charge range or present side armour to line up a good shot on a unit. that is not lined up in front of you.

Vendettas are nasty but people always act like every game is 2000 points or something. You can take 3 Scout sentinels for less cost (105 points vs 130points)than 1 vendetta. Its a tough call but but my inclination is that 3 base scout sentinels would cause more damage points wise then 1 vendetta gunship in a low point game. (you could also put auto cannons or smoke on all 3 models for 15 extra points total so it would be 120 vs 130).

With all the armies hiding behind ADL, its nice to be able to erase a unit or two with one.

Even funnier if you tactical genius a unit via outflanking.

Besides, Chimeras are DT so take both.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I find all three of the fast attack tanks to be effective. My favourite is the devil dog closely followed by the hell hound. Even the bane wolf has done its fair share of damage. But chimeras in my opinion lack the range (torrent) to effectively bring their weapons to bear. I prefer to load it up with HB and out a stubber on top and just act as heavy weapons platform for my troops.

Devil dogs are great I agree. In terms of using the chimeras as a heavy weapons platform is a great idea, really underused tactics wise imo. Special weapons squad + chimera from another squad is one of my favorite. For the lols you could do chimera with heavy flamer turret, sponson and 3 flamer wielding squad on the inside and have quite the bbq.

Majsharan wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


There are those that will tell you that Vendettas are the only FA choice worth considering, but Hellhounds again fulfil different roles, so once more the comparison is somewhat misleading. Hellhounds are brutal against entrenched infantry (and with xenos on the rise AP4 is far more relevant these days). They also have the advantage over flamer-Chimeras that they don't have to be in guaranteed charge range or present side armour to line up a good shot on a unit. that is not lined up in front of you.

Vendettas are nasty but people always act like every game is 2000 points or something. You can take 3 Scout sentinels for less cost (105 points vs 130points)than 1 vendetta. Its a tough call but but my inclination is that 3 base scout sentinels would cause more damage points wise then 1 vendetta gunship in a low point game. (you could also put auto cannons or smoke on all 3 models for 15 extra points total so it would be 120 vs 130).

I agree with you , Vendettas really are overhyped and often other units can do the same job just as well. That's kind of what I was getting at in my post, but also the fact that Vendettas are tank-busting fliers, Hellhounds are fast anti-infantry units. It was really just a pre-emptive argument against the inevitable 'Vendettas are the best' posts.

I wouldn't say others can do the same job.

Its a flying triple las cannon that can hit other flyers at full BS.

Unless you luck out with a skyfire nexus objective no other unit in IG will have that.

Just a little OT

 Desubot wrote:

Besides, Chimeras are DT so take both.

Have gotten this a couple times already. Yeah I can take both because DT don't take up force slots but thats not what I am really getting at here. If you were going to say, " hey I am going to take these two chimeras as DT but use them as I would use a hellhound and not as a transport" would you actually get more utility out of two chimeras or 1 hell hound. The chimeras would not be in the same squad so the opponent would have to fire at them independently and couldn't ko them both with something like a vendetta that has 3 twin linked lascannon shots.

Hellhound is fast. Combined with torrent is HUGE. 24" range on the start of the flamer every turn. If HH were 90-100 points you would see a lot more. At 130 they are just too expensive.

 Desubot wrote:
I wouldn't say others can do the same job.

Its a flying triple las cannon that can hit other flyers at full BS.

Unless you luck out with a skyfire nexus objective no other unit in IG will have that.

Just a little OT

Even more off topicer If i was expecting flyers I would probably take 2 hydra flak tanks over a vendetta of the purpose of AA. Vendettas really should only be used against ground Vechs and hq units IMO. twin linked autocannons are more than enough force for 99% of flyers fielded.

The other side of the coin is that each chimera is a KP. but that's just a little something.

A regular squadron of hh can literally touch an opponent turn 1 in there DZ.

Add in creed scout, you can be touch 36 inchs +.

Its very alpha strikey if done right.

Majsharan wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Besides, Chimeras are DT so take both.

Have gotten this a couple times already. Yeah I can take both because DT don't take up force slots but thats not what I am really getting at here. If you were going to say, " hey I am going to take these two chimeras as DT but use them as I would use a hellhound and not as a transport" would you actually get more utility out of two chimeras or 1 hell hound. The chimeras would not be in the same squad so the opponent would have to fire at them independently and couldn't ko them both with something like a vendetta that has 3 twin linked lascannon shots.

If you want a dedicated anti-infantry tank, then take the hellhound. Using a unit for something it can do but was not really designed for is a quick way to waste a portion of the unit's potential. Using Chimeras with HF is never going to be as effective as a hellhound at doing what a hellhound does best.

Correct about the flamer, though if you want death the chem dogs are amazing. Then again you can't really go too wrong what a small blast meltagun, though flamers auto-hitting is nice.

Chimeras are awful flamer platforms. If you move 6" (and you have to move to use flamers) you only get to use one, and if you move over 6" you can't shoot them at all. So you have, at most, a single heavy flamer shot with zero range. That's not terrible as a defensive weapon in addition to the multilaser turret (replacing a worthless snap-fire heavy bolter), but not even close to a viable threat that you want to move up aggressively to use. A Hellhound, on the other hand, can move 12" and then throw the flamer template another 12". So you get into range at all much faster, and when you are in range to fire you can perfectly position the template to hit as many models as possible. The Hellhound is the clear winner here.

Too bad your fast attack slots are already occupied by Vendettas.

Majsharan wrote:
Its a tough call but but my inclination is that 3 base scout sentinels would cause more damage points wise then 1 vendetta gunship in a low point game. (you could also put auto cannons or smoke on all 3 models for 15 extra points total so it would be 120 vs 130).

Your inclination is wrong. The Vendetta will do more damage, will take much more damage to kill (and in a very low point game is pretty much unkillable), and will deliver a scoring unit to an objective late in the game.

 juraigamer wrote:
Correct about the flamer, though if you want death the chem dogs are amazing.

No, they're garbage. AP 3 doesn't really matter when the zero-range flamer hits so few models. A Hellhound will usually do more damage over a full game, even against MEQs, simply because it inflicts more hits.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, they're garbage. AP 3 doesn't really matter when the zero-range flamer hits so few models. A Hellhound will usually do more damage over a full game, even against MEQs, simply because it inflicts more hits.

Agreed. The ability to position the torrent template at almost ridiculously unreasonable angles makes for great wounding potential compared to a standard flamer template. However, why the IG haven't figured out how to use the same, apparently-mystical, "extra-squirty" technology utilized in the Hellhound to give Banewolves torrent is beyond me...

On a related note, the rather surprised look on your opponent's face when you blow up his turbo-boosting AV10 skimmer with a S6, auto-hit, no-cover flamer from across the board is rather nice, if somewhat unlikely.

DoW

 Peregrine wrote:

Majsharan wrote:
Its a tough call but but my inclination is that 3 base scout sentinels would cause more damage points wise then 1 vendetta gunship in a low point game. (you could also put auto cannons or smoke on all 3 models for 15 extra points total so it would be 120 vs 130).

Your inclination is wrong. The Vendetta will do more damage, will take much more damage to kill (and in a very low point game is pretty much unkillable), and will deliver a scoring unit to an objective late in the game.
.

low point games typically don't have very many mechs if any at all so once you zap their vechs, which if they aren't squaded you have to target over multiple turns, you are taking out max 3 models a turn with your vendetta. Unless they changed the rule for 6th, (i ahven't specfically lookd it so they may have you re-roll to wound for twin-linked) so bad bs is going to keep you from landing 3 shots most of the time. however, with scout sentinels with multi-lasers you are firing 9 shots per turn or 6 shots per turn with auto cannon.

it all depends what you are shooting at of course in terms of armor and cover saves but in terms of chance to hit. I am assuming meq
with vendetta you are likely to land 1.7 or something hits per every 3 shots. with the high ap and damage its basically is going to auto kill anything with out an invuln save.
with 3 sentinels with mulit-laser you are likely to land 4.7ish hits per every 9 shots. but with the mid strength but crappy ap you are probably going to kill 1-2 models a turn as well .
with 3 sentinels with auto-cannon you are likely to land 3.2 hits per every 6 shots. with good strength and better ap you are probably goting to kill the same amount of models with the added ability of reliably killing transports and having a shot at killing tanks.
with 3 sentinels with heavy flamers it gets tricky becuase its about whether or not they can actually get close enough to use their flamers without dieing. so take this one with a grain of salt. But i would say on average a flame template hits 3 models and you have 3 flamers so theoretically you could hit 9 models but for the sake of likely hood lets say you hit 5 models 3 times each. With the strength and ap of heavy flamers you are likely to kill 3 models.

so from shooting you say the vendetta is better but marginally if you are shooting against meq and not using heavy flamer

2 things in favor of the sentinel squad.
the big one is that sentinels can *edit* tar pit and are actually good at it. the second is if you lose your vendetta you are done no more anything, however they have to go through all 3 of your sentinels before you have nothing.

obviously vendetta can transport a squad which is a huge help.

so its close obviously, a lot closer then most people would think

now if its a big point game or you are going against mechanized armies and or tank spam armies then yes vendetta all the way. but if you are going against a meq or lower heavy army then i would say 3 sentinels take the edge.

Majsharan wrote:

the big one is that sentinels can melee and are actually good at it.

I couldn't take anything seriously in your post because of this.

Sentinels are beyond downright awful in melee. I can't think a of a unit that Sentinels could even stand up against. Sure, there are some units that can't hurt sentinels due to low strength or lacking grenades, but the sentinel has a lonely attack at S5 and WS3. That is painfully awful against every conceivable target that isn't a grot (and even then, it mathematically kills a grot less than every other round of assault!).

Sentinels are truly awful at melee.

Anyways, as Peregrine has said. Hellhounds are better than dual HF chimeras due to being fast and torrent flamer.

by good at melee I should have said good at tar pitting.

Majsharan wrote:
by good at melee I should have said good at tar pitting.

Tar pitting what? Grots? Anything you would want to tar pit will kill you and get opened topped +1 on the Pen roll. I mean, lets say you run into a mob of ork boyz to tar pit them, the boyz themselves can glance you to death on 6s before the nob destroys your squad, not counting the overwatch fire. Anything that can be destroyed by bolter fire will not last in melee.

Multi-laser is no longer a bad weapon, or as bad as it use to be. It is probably the best weapon you can have on a Scout Sentinel because it gives that BS 3 guy a chance to hit more. The Vendetta is amazing because it has twin linked lascannon shots to mean you have a 75% chance to hit with every shot and you can throw two heavy bolters on it for something stupid cheap (10pts?) for low level games to make it a beast against anything... 3 TLed LC shots and 6 HB shots on something that is still considered the best flyer in the game due to AV 12, weapons, and cost. Only the Helldrake rivals it (IMO).

As for Chimeras vs Hellhounds, you never want to remove the ML from the Chimera, it is to good of a weapon, due to the number of shots and Str 6. Peregrine is correct on the snap fire problems (you can't SF a template weapon) that the Chimera has. I still feel that for an attacking Chimera that a hull Heavy Flamer is the better choice over a heavy bolter, specially if you want to be able to move 6" and shoot with the troops inside (and still snap fire the ML). Ifyour looking for a flamer platform, the Hellhound is the better choice. If you want to make a Chimera compatible, your looking at adding a squad to it to give it more template weapons and thus upping the price to be more in line with the Hell Hound. A Platoon Command Squad with 4 flamers combined with the hull heavy flamer give you a scoring option that can burn out units in cover for 105pts, if your running Platoons. A Vet squad with two-three flamers and maybe a heavy flamer is 140-155pts. That would be the best way to really make a Chimera a viable flamer platform, but your paying more than you would for a Hell Hound.

So really, IMO, the cheapest way of getting a flamer platform is the Chimera with flamer troops in it. If you think about it, your paying 100+ points for a Chimera and it's troops all ready, and you have to have troops. Your just making the unit you have to have a little more expensive (or less effective/expensive if we are talking flamer vets over melta/plasma vets), and that expense is /cheaper/ than filling up a force org slot that you really don't have to have (the Hell Hound). The additional benefit is pushing a scoring unit up the board toward another scoring unit that is also probably weak that is sitting in cover on a objective and thus being in position to claim that objective.

My other problem with the Hell Hound is that it is effectively a suicide unit. You have to hope you kill another unit to make up for the kill point your going to lose... the points almost don't matter. If your going to suicide, there are better units for that... Marbro, a Special weapons squad or PCS dropped in from a Flyer, and even a five man Storm Trooper squad. With a Hell Hound you have to be able to rush up and kill a unit for First Blood and a KP to make up for what your going to lose... and what if they have nothing on the board for you to flamer? What if they are a mech list or reserve their units or have good enough armor to survive and not be taken out? Your kind of screwed then.

Majsharan wrote:
with vendetta you are likely to land 1.7 or something hits per every 3 shots. with the high ap and damage its basically is going to auto kill anything with out an invuln save.
with 3 sentinels with mulit-laser you are likely to land 4.7ish hits per every 9 shots. but with the mid strength but crappy ap you are probably going to kill 1-2 models a turn as well.
with 3 sentinels with auto-cannon you are likely to land 3.2 hits per every 6 shots. with good strength and better ap you are probably goting to kill the same amount of models with the added ability of reliably killing transports and having a shot at killing tanks.

Please take the time to do the math instead of just making up numbers.

The Vendetta averages 2.25 hits per turn with its lascannons, and potentially more if you have the HB sponsons.
The ML Sentinels average 4.5 hits per turn.
The AC Sentinels average 3 hits per turn.
The HF Sentinels average zero hits per turn because they'll be dead long before they get into flamer range.

The end result is that the Vendetta is equal or better against pretty much everything except horde infantry, a target type that neither unit is really good against.

the big one is that sentinels can *edit* tar pit and are actually good at it

No, Sentinels are terrible at tar pitting. Anything that can't hurt them can just voluntarily fall back, and any serious assault unit will tear them apart pretty easily. Even a basic tactical squad with krak grenades and no other melee weapons will kill a Sentinel and a half every turn, just from HP loss.

the second is if you lose your vendetta you are done no more anything, however they have to go through all 3 of your sentinels before you have nothing.

You have this completely backwards. Against most threats the Sentinels will lose models (and die entirely) much faster than equal points in Vendettas. Shooting that can wipe out a Sentinel squad effortlessly may not even score a single hit on a Vendetta.