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I'm going to the Kill Team Event next month with my Guard and for those of you who don't know here's a quick rundown of Kill Team...

Each player fields a 200pt army using either 0-1 Elite, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Fast Attack,

Once the game begins each model acts and counts as a independent unit,

3 Models can be made 'specialist' by being given a special rule from the 40k rulebook section (except psyker, daemon or any rule that changes the weapon type such as 'torrent') the same rule cannot be used more than once,

Once a Kill Team is reduced to half strength it needs to take a 'Break test' using the highest leadership on the board if you fail your team legs it and you lose, if you succeed you stay but must do it again the next turn with a -1 to your Ld, this increases each turn after you are under half strength,

In the tournament at the end of each game you roll 2D6 on a leader upgrade chart and add the number of kills your team leader got in that game. These upgrades can range from extra rules to +1 to weapon and character stats, so the more kills your leader gets the more likely he be an unstoppable bad boy in later games

You can see the full rules pack here: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...ack_2013.4.pdf

Anyway here's the list I was planning to take...

Harker (shrouded)
Veteran: Plasma Gun (FNP)
Veteran: Plasma Gun (Ignore Cover)
Veteran: Grenade Launcher
X4 Veterans: Lasgun
Veteran Team: Autocannon

X3 Ratlings

At first I considering going with a Sentinel but Harker as the team leader has more chance or racking up Kills with his heavy bolter and thus getting better after each round. He also gives the rest of the team Stealth, Move through cover and Infiltrate which makes him worth taking for 55pts.
However... while I was convinced these upgrades would be in effect as they are applied before the game begins and the unit splits, but the event team has told me that is not the case and Harker is the only one who benefits from them so that 55pts is looking very expensive!

So since I've already converted up a model for Harker for this event do I keep him around because he has Relentless, FNP, Move Through Cover & Stealth and is a heavy hitting team leader instead of a basic vet sergeant? Or do I ditch him?

I'm looking for some feedback regarding the list but I'm also interested to hear of other players Guard Kill Teams and how effective they have been?

Hi Proiteus, thanks for inviting our opinions. I think your very asking suggests you already know the answer.

I'm not an Imperial Guard expert, but I've been playing a lot of Kill Team. So I'm thinking like your opponents.

But 1st, I'm not piling on, but it turns out the Event Team weren't being harsh on you:

 Proiteus wrote:
At first I considering going with a Sentinel but Harker as the team leader has more chance or racking up Kills with his heavy bolter and thus getting better after each round. He also gives the rest of the team Stealth, Move through cover and Infiltrate which makes him worth taking for 55pts.

However... while I was convinced these upgrades would be in effect as they are applied before the game begins and the unit splits, but the event team has told me that is not the case and Harker is the only one who benefits from them so that 55pts is looking very expensive!

You're hit with a double-whammy here. There's 2 separate rules for this specific instance:

Unit Upgrades and Special Rules: If your character has or buys an upgrade (eg a Painboyz’ Dok’s Tools, or an Incubi Klaivex buys Onslaught), only the character themselves benefits from the rule, and not the rest of the squad. If a whole squad has or buys an upgrade that gives them all a special rule (eg Psybolt Amuunition), they all receive it. If your squad special rule requires you to roll on a chart and apply the result (eg- Wyches Combat Drugs), simply roll once and apply the result to the whole unit.

Neither player may place any units in reserve, or make use of the Infiltrate or Scout Special Rules.

It turns out, though, the event team and the rules may have helped you, as Harker is too much of a point sink.

I think your idea is cool, building up Harker to be a Leader that keeps on gaining experience. It's just too costly.

You also make him the most obvious target. FNP notwithstanding, he's the 1st thing to shoot at with, say:

- 3 Big Shootas Specialists, 1 with Ignore Cover, 1 with Fleshbane. Cost: 33 points
- 2 Space Marines with Heavy Bolters, 1 with Ignore Cover, 1 with Fleshbane. Cost: 48 points

Both are cheaper than Harker, plus I get 2 Victory Points for taking him out as your Leader. Too tempting.

However, you have an absolute star player that you may want to take another look at: THE AUTOCANNON.

The Autocannon outranges most other Heavy Weapons, S7, and has 2 shots...great for a USR.

Against Vehicles, give it Armourbane. Against anything else, Ignore Cover.

It's so good, I want to take another one, because just having the 1 is also making it too juicy a target:

---

Veteran Squad with 1 Autocannon (Ignore Cover)

Veteran Squad with another Autocannon (Relentless)

3 Ratling Snipers

---

That's 23 models, 190 pts so far, 1 more USR to play with. I know I removed some Plasma, etc.

But for that price, I added 10 more models to your Kill Team along with the Autocannon.

Those 10 points you could use for Grenade Launchers or Flamers, 1 of them with Fleshbane USR.

I never looked much at IG, but this is a very solid take-all-comers list. It's both a Horde and Snipers.

(The best horde I've seen is 30 Boyz, 3 Big Shootas. You almost have their numbers, but lots more Dakka.)

This Kill Team looks great. Now I want to do this myself with those FW Chaos Renegade models, dammit.

I'm still not sure if that's the best. Maybe you want some Rough Riders as Objective Takers, but this is great.

I'll check in to see more ideas, like I said, I'm not an IG expert, but I'm really interested in this.

---

Disclaimer - I may be biased towards the Autocannon, as before the AV33 restriction, I ran a Mortis Pattern Dreadnought a.k.a. Dakka Dread with 2 twin-linked Autocannons. I totally wiped out the enemy in 1 game (killed all the models before he could even fail his Break test) and had a Flawless Victory in another (zero casualties, objective taken, Leader killed).

That link didn't work for me, is there another place I can find the rules for kill team and other game types not in the main book? I always wondered what kill team was.

 Ol'Dirty wrote:
That link didn't work for me, is there another place I can find the rules for kill team and other game types not in the main book? I always wondered what kill team was.

For Kill Team, here you go:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=3500001&aId=26200004a

PDF in the middle of the page. It's really good now because they use it in their Warhammer World event, so they worked out all the exploits we ourselves faced. It's also written in a much more organized manner now.

I'd suggest reading Kommissar Waaaghrick Tactica in his sig. It helped me out by reading it.

Considering an alternative list, with a few more bodies. Harker's great an all but at the end of the day my original Kill Team had neither quality or quantity, while a platoon is tempting I don't wanna try and paint up all those models in a month plus this way all my models can throw sgt 6 grenades when the enemy get close. It a shame that my Team Leader won't be leading the team and will most likely hide behind a rock to avoid giving the opponent the 2pts.

2 Veteran Squads
1 Sgt (Leader)
1 Sgt
X10 Lasguns
X2 Plasma Guns (FNP & Ignore Cover)
X2 Grenade Launchers
X2 Autocannons (1 Relentless)

What do you think?

Insane Smile wrote:I'd suggest reading Kommissar Waaaghrick Tactica in his sig. It helped me out by reading it.

Thanks very much, I really appreciate that. The greatest praise was that it simply helped you, that's all I want to do. I really condensed it, making it easier to read, for that sole purpose.

Proiteus wrote:Considering an alternative list, with a few more bodies. Harker's great an all but at the end of the day my original Kill Team had neither quality or quantity, while a platoon is tempting I don't wanna try and paint up all those models in a month plus this way all my models can throw sgt 6 grenades when the enemy get close. It a shame that my Team Leader won't be leading the team and will most likely hide behind a rock to avoid giving the opponent the 2pts.

2 Veteran Squads
1 Sgt (Leader)
1 Sgt
X10 Lasguns
X2 Plasma Guns (FNP & Ignore Cover)
X2 Grenade Launchers
X2 Autocannons (1 Relentless)

What do you think?

And I think this is absolutely great. It has BOTH quality and quantity. I also agree with your assignment of Specialists, like on Plasma Guns. I dropped them only because of personal preference, I don't want them Getting Hot in a KT.

Regarding a full Platoon, I too mulled over that with my initial post! Painting aside, I still think you are better served with that BS of 4, especially with so many special weapons (don't give the guy who can't shoot an expensive gun).

Our local KT meta were discussing which Codex was best for KT. I'm not quite ready to say it's IG, but from this exercise, I did notice IG has the optimal "scale" to fit into KT. It can Horde, it can Outgun, comfortably within 200 points.

I've been thinking; is "Relentless" really such a benefit on a heavy weapon team? I ask because given the size of the board and the terrain warhammer world uses (see images below from first tournament) the only benefit I see is being able to hide behind terrain for the first turn. Wouldn't replacing an Autocannon with a heavy bolter with "Fleshbane" or "Rending" be more beneficial with a 3rd shot? True it has less AP but I'm sure most units with 4+ or less armour will be sticking in/behind cover.

Quick question.. how would orders work in Kill team? For instance if you took a platoon command squad and 2 basic squads, the platoon leader can still give orders... but only to individual models?

Thanks

zhutch wrote:
Quick question.. how would orders work in Kill team? For instance if you took a platoon command squad and 2 basic squads, the platoon leader can still give orders... but only to individual models?

Yes you can issue an order to 1 model per turn.

 Proiteus wrote:
I've been thinking; is "Relentless" really such a benefit on a heavy weapon team? I ask because given the size of the board and the terrain warhammer world uses (see images below from first tournament) the only benefit I see is being able to hide behind terrain for the first turn. Wouldn't replacing an Autocannon with a heavy bolter with "Fleshbane" or "Rending" be more beneficial with a 3rd shot? True it has less AP but I'm sure most units with 4+ or less armour will be sticking in/behind cover.

Actually, I'm using Heavy Bolters with my Space Marines for that very reason. So yes, it's great, too!

I suggested Autocannon because for your Veterans because they don't have T4 and Power Armour.

And Relentless for the 1st turn is usually the anti-sniping round, everyone tries to kill everyone's Heavy Weapons.

(You got some more range to play with, combined with Relentless, makes it more survivable.)

But yeah, both Autocannon w/ Relentless and Heavy Bolter w/ Fleshbane and Rending (I prefer Ignore Cover) is great.

It's just you have access to Autocannons and MEQs got to jump some hoops getting them, so I thought to play to your army's strengths.

Since you give fleshbane to the model and not the weapon wouldn't it only benefit from fleshbane in cc? As written it says a model with fleshbane wounds on 2+ cc; a ranged weapon with fleshbane wounds on 2+ when it shoots.

The Kill Team rules specify that Fleshbane/Armorbane apply to both close combat and ranged attacks made by a specialist given that special rule.

Ol'Dirty wrote:Since you give fleshbane to the model and not the weapon wouldn't it only benefit from fleshbane in cc? As written it says a model with fleshbane wounds on 2+ cc; a ranged weapon with fleshbane wounds on 2+ when it shoots.

Gorgosaurusrex wrote:The Kill Team rules specify that Fleshbane/Armorbane apply to both close combat and ranged attacks made by a specialist given that special rule.

Yeah, that's a good question, though, and the latest (Sept 2013) Kill Team rules themselves:

*If you choose this rule for a Specialist, it will affect any attacks (both ranged and close combat) made by that Specialist.

Which applies to these rules:

• Armourbane*

• Blind*

• Concussive*

• Fleshbane*

• Haywire*

• Ignores Cover*

• Lance*

• Master-Crafted*

• Rending*

• Shred*

It does allow for some pretty interesting combinations. An Imperial Fist (or successor) Space Marine with the Bolter Drill Chapter Tactics, combined Heavy Bolter with Fleshbane or Armourbane or Ignore Cover, has been a favourite of mine.

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

Well had 4 games with the list this evening and got absolutely destroyed my numbers did nothing what so ever. Never realized that they've changed the rules so one model can now shoot multiple targets for example a venom can split it's shots between 4 different targets now.

1 game was against Dark Eldar who used their horrid jetbikes to snipe my strongest units first my heavy weapons and plasma guns then grenade launcher and leaders before finishing off the standard guys with a support from a squad in a raider. In the last game I thought against a Guard player with a veteran squad in a chimera which proved a nightmare to burst open with him sniping all of my strongest weapons.

So given that all 5 fire points and the chimera's own weapons can now shoot at different targets (which I'll confirm with the event team) perhaps a chimera Kill Team is the way to go?

Since we've got some veteran Kill Team players on this thread I'd like run this past you. It's really causing a lot of confusion amongst the players, here are the rules in question from the current rules pack...

Every Man For Himself: All models operate as individual units in this mission, even if they were chosen as part of a squad or squadron. In addition, when a model shoots or fights in assault, it may split up it's attacks up amongst any eligible targets

Transports: You may transport all members of your squad in a dedicated transport. Straight after they disembark, they become individual units as per 'Everyman for Himself"

Several people who took part in a small Kill Team event I ran to get some practice had their Kill Team mounted in a transport believing that the "Every man for himself" rule meant that their dedicated transport as a single model (passengers included) could split up it's shooting attacks as they are a single model while in a transport. I asked the event team and they said this...

Ok, so as you state, a unit in a chimera is a single unit. Thus, they can only fire at one target as per the rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. The whole unit must fire at the same target.
The Transports rule on page 5 says that as soon as they disembark they are subject to the rules for Every Man for Himself. That equally means before they disembark, they are NOT subject to those rules. Thus, all the veterans in question must shoot at the same target while mounted in the chimera. Only once they have disembarked do they gain the option to fire at multiple targets.

But what does this mean in regarding to the transport being a single model it can split up it's shots, but the passages can only fire all their shots at a single target?

Would you not be better off with the forward sentries upgrade instead of the Harker upgrade? You get defensive grenades and stealth.

-Veteran Sgt. w/ Powersword, Bolt Pistol
+Fleshbane, Rage, FnP, Fleet, or Jink (Jink combined with stealth for 4+ whenever it moves)
-Veteran w/ sniper rifle
-Veteran w/ grenade launcher
+Armour Bane, if Flamer does not take fleshbane
-Veteran w/ flamer
+Fleshbane, if grenade does not get armourbane
-Veteran Weapon Team w/ Autocannon
+Relentless or Ignore Cover
-Veteran Guardsmen x4

They all benefit from stealth and defensive grenades. You have

Subtotal:135

Marbo (to get the final 200) he can be your glorious leader.
or
get 6 ratlings and a meltabomb. Sniper suppot, switch sniper vet to flamer vet or whatever
or
3 ratlings and upgrade the Grenade Launchers and Flamers to Plasma. Provides better weaponry at 200 points to crack tougher targets
or
3 rats, meltabomb, Grenadiers. Vets have both the cover save benefits, but also the 4+ that becomes beautiful in low point games. Helps in case they get hit by flamers.

Each one holds their merits.

 Proiteus wrote:
But what does this mean in regarding to the transport being a single model it can split up it's shots, but the passages can only fire all their shots at a single target?

That interpretation was something we ourselves never played, but it is correct, and it would have helped me in the past. I fought a Space Marine Rhino with a Flamer and a Multimelta, they totally split fire.

Naturally, with the Chimera's 5 Fire Points, that's a game changer. However, I don't think your opponent was being malevolent or cheating; he just made an oversight, as we have done, repeatedly.

(Also, I'm sorry I didn't highlight this, models can split fire and even split close combat attacks. It helps with multi-shot Assault weapons, like Shootas, because they then have multiple options to charge).

---

I am also shocked and disappointed in myself that I advised you on what our local group long thought was a great Kill Team, the 2 Veteran Squads with loads of Heavy and Special Weapons.

We knew Imperial Guard soldiers were squishier, but with 2 separate 2 Wound Autocannon teams and all your Special guns, we thought some of them would last long enough to wreak havoc.

Turn 1 to 2 of every Kill Team game is about taking out the big guns. It's a given some will die, but that's all accounted for in our calculations. That's why we want to some spare, for contingency.

---

So I apologise to you now and I am going to get our group to do more thorough testing with IG in particular. We have 1 dedicated IG player and we're really going to grill him for this.

---

UPDATE - just had a long session with our residential IG player. He immediately guessed the Dark Eldar were using their Jet Bikes and a Venom.

Basically, the Dark Eldar list was a counter for any infantry list. Whoever you played with, basically made a hard counter for most Kill Team lists. Dark Eldar are experts in small raids.

He also said the Transports are much more valuable for IG than, say, Marines and Orks. Reason is, most IG infantry are much squishier, thus the Front AV12 Chimera is really great.

He's also a frequent Kill Team player and still suggested using a Veteran Squad as the core, adding on a Chimera, have 1 Heavy/Special Weapons Specialist in it, then whatever you like.

We further also found an Insanely Competitive IG Kill Team. It's basically a Psyker Battle Squad in a Chimera, the Psykers being Specialists with Fleshbane, Sniper, then Poison or Blind.