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Is it worth it to take a DA ally for my white scars? I was thinking mostly for the librarian that can roll on divination for the HQ and for a dark shroud which shroud of angels affects all friendly models. That means scars within 6" of the shroud would have a base 3+ cover save for moving which could drop to 2+ for turbo boost. The librarian does add a lot for the divination rolls and I could even do a ravenwing command squad to add the rad launcher + an apothecary for khan and the chapter master. Downside is only troops I could take is scouts or tac squad so not many options there. What's your thoughts dakka.

I have about 16 generic bikers and 5 dark angels black knights. I wasn't going to leave them out of my white scars army so I did 3 squads of basic bikers (with plasma guns) each with an attack bike in my white scar army. Added Khan and a squad of Sternguards in a drop pod.
I added a dark angels ally with a lvl 2 librarian on bike, a command squad of 5 black knights with one grenade launcher and payed the troop tax with a minimal scout squad with sniper rifles and a missile launcher.

Khan rolled with the black knights and the librarian BUT they were the initial target of my opponents 2 flyrants and Tervigon psykers (both with enfeeble) and by the end of turn 2, they were gone (both my independant character were one shotted due to a toughness of 3).
But needless to say that I will try this again. My opponent said to me, after turn one (I had scouted everything before the game started) that he was intimidated by the speed at which all my forces approached his lines.

icefire78 wrote:
Is it worth it to take a DA ally for my white scars? I was thinking mostly for the librarian that can roll on divination for the HQ and for a dark shroud which shroud of angels affects all friendly models. That means scars within 6" of the shroud would have a base 3+ cover save for moving which could drop to 2+ for turbo boost. The librarian does add a lot for the divination rolls and I could even do a ravenwing command squad to add the rad launcher + an apothecary for khan and the chapter master. Downside is only troops I could take is scouts or tac squad so not many options there. What's your thoughts dakka.

There's one inherent issue with this, and that is that the enemy can focus fire on those squad members than do not benefit from the WS +1 jink. Otherwise it ought to be a strong combo, if you bring a tank chapter master. You could place them so that the librarian is closest behind the chapter master leading the advance, and then LOS the focus fired hits to the CM to mitigate this.

 paqman wrote:
I had have about 16 generic bikers and 5 dark angels black knights. I wasn't going to leave them out of my white scars army so I did 3 squads of basic bikers (with plasma guns) each with an attack bike in my white scar army. Added Khan and a squad of Sternguards in a drop pod.
I added a dark angels ally with a lvl 2 librarian on bike, a command squad of 5 black knights with one grenade launcher and payed the troop tax with a minimal scout squad with sniper rifles and a missile launcher.

Khan rolled with the black knights and the librarian BUT they were the initial target of my opponents 2 flyrants and Tervigon psykers (both with enfeeble) and by the end of turn 2, they were gone (both my independant character were one shotted due to a toughness of 3).
But needless to say that I will try this again. My opponent said to me, after turn one (I had scouted everything before the game started) that I was intimidated by the speed at which all my forces approached his lines.

Against that matchup, maybe you should consider a Shield Eternal Chapter master to tank for the uber squad?

Never thought about the focus fire to kill them. On the + note that the chapter master in the squad of black knights would have a 2 cover save if within 6 of the dark shroud since he would benefit from WS +1 and skilled rider from the black knights. Other than that they could ignore the chapter master and only slam the other part of the squad.

Technically with a skilled rider guy in the unit and a darkshroud, they can't be focus fired on turns they turboboost, since they'll all be 2+ cover saves. (not such thing as having a 1+ save). Doubt that it's really worth it though.

Tried it, and it isn't worth it. In the games where you don't go first it gets pasted immediately, and even when you do, there is enough ignoring cover out there now that it becomes a point sink.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Tried it, and it isn't worth it. In the games where you don't go first it gets pasted immediately, and even when you do, there is enough ignoring cover out there now that it becomes a point sink.

Do you play exclusively against WAAC Tau and Eldar lists? Against everything else Darkshrouds are great. Having an entire army with 3+ cover is pretty strong. Command Squads synergise extremely well with White Scars lists, and provide the close combat punch/Daemon hunting punch they lack.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Tried it, and it isn't worth it. In the games where you don't go first it gets pasted immediately, and even when you do, there is enough ignoring cover out there now that it becomes a point sink.

Do you play exclusively against WAAC Tau and Eldar lists? Against everything else Darkshrouds are great. Having an entire army with 3+ cover is pretty strong. Command Squads synergise extremely well with White Scars lists, and provide the close combat punch/Daemon hunting punch they lack.

Why does it have to be a WAAC tau or eldar list to take it out? A single FMC has a good chance to one shot a dark shroud with a vector strike. Most armies new or old can take out a skimmer.

The skimmer itself isn't so bad if you take a land raider to hide it behind. With the jink+ it gets plus not having LoS it becomes reasonably survivable. The problem being that you start getting split save units for combining your DA and WS units. You can however get a pretty annoying unit of Sammy + grav command squad which has a constant 2+ cover save for all but sammy (5+ jink, +1 stealth, +1 WS, +1 skilled rider). The problem being that sammy can be focus fired on.

BTW the land raider could hold a unit of dev cents. They can then scout forward using khan's ability. This would give you some really nasty alpha strikes but would also be a very points intensive investments.

Also if you take a mid board ADL you can get a cover save turn 1 (assuming you play on a relatively terrain free board). Up to you whether that is worth it but with the need to take a scouts or TAC squad it could be.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Tried it, and it isn't worth it. In the games where you don't go first it gets pasted immediately, and even when you do, there is enough ignoring cover out there now that it becomes a point sink.

Do you play exclusively against WAAC Tau and Eldar lists? Against everything else Darkshrouds are great. Having an entire army with 3+ cover is pretty strong. Command Squads synergise extremely well with White Scars lists, and provide the close combat punch/Daemon hunting punch they lack.

Firstly, there's no such thing as a WAAC list. Win At All Costs is a mindset, not a type of list. This is a distinction that people should learn to make before making serious comments regarding competitive play.

Secondly, not just Eldar and Tau ignore cover; CSM and Space Marines do it too now, and DA have ways to reduce it.

Thirdly, even if it was just Eldar and Tau that made it a problem, they are the two lists that are seen the most competitively these days, so that's what a competitive list needs to plan for.

Next up, 3+ cover save being great. Sure it is nice, but it's much like how people rave over Thousand Sons' invulnerable save; most of the time you are getting your armour so don't use the cover save. Meanwhile you are paying ~80pts plus ally premiums to boost that cover save to only a handful of your models, while having it maintained on an AV10 platform that depends on going first to survive. That's not an efficient way to spend points. BTW, it's worth mentioning once again that the things that are ignoring Power Armour these days are the same things that are ignoring cover mostly, i.e. Riptides and Heldrakes.

Lastly, and a little less related, where do you get the idea that Ravenwing Command Squads kill Daemons any less than White Scars? Grav kills Daemon Princes, TL Bolters kill almost everything else. Wheels alone also provides more true combat ability than them, though again this notion that combat is necessary in 6th edition is flawed.

Overall the point I'm making is you might think 80pts plus taxes isn't much, but making good lists isn't about points, it's about points efficiency, and if a unit doesn't do what it's supposed do most of the time, then it isn't worth taking.

The problem with this combination is, first and foremost, that one can only take Ravenwing Bike troops in an army in which Dark Angels are primary. In addition, the Sammuel tax for DA primary is pretty rough. I suppose that you could take a squad of Scouts, a bike Libby, and the Dark Shroud, but that seems to be a waste of an allied contingent for a relatively gimmicky tactic.

I believe there is potential in that thought. What if in a lets say 2000 pts list you have something like:
HQ

CM Shield, hammer, bike, AA
Khan bike

Troops

6x5 grav bikes, sgt combi grav

HS

2xstalkers
TFC

Allies DA

Libby bike, PFG,lvl2
Techmarine bike, PFG

Troops

scouts(minimum squad)

FA

Darkshroud

HS

Whirlwind.

That way you maximize the survivability of the Darkshroud by giving to it a 4++ and that of the overall squad by extra cover save and inv save. And i believe there are
like 25 pts left.