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This came from a post of a friend of mine and I wanted to get your opinions:

Just when you think you have everything down, something pops up that raises your eyebrows.

Now, from the wording of the rules, if a Tank performs a Tank Shock and enemy models were to end up underneath it, onlythose models are forced to move out of the way, shortest distance possible, while forced to maintain coherency with their unit, while maintaining 1" away. If this is not possible, then those models are crunched.

So the situation came up against a Marine player, where here was this unit of bikers , nicely lined up.

B B B K C B B A B

B= Biker
K= Khan
C= Chaplain
A= Attack Bike

So I took an opportunistic Tank Shock with a Wave Serpent, straight down the center of that conga line. Since there was a Chaplain, they were fearless. However, the Wave Serpent ended its move ontop of Khan and the Chaplain (models were about 2" apart, I had a couple of Night Spinners too they were trying to avoid large blast templates)

So Khan and the Chaplain, could not maintain 2" coherence and keep 1" away from the Wave Serpent.

I claimed Crunch! obviously to the distress of my opponent. But it felt wrong. I don't recall Tank Shock being this awesome...

Did I use the rule correctly?!

no you did not, you start by moving the first model you came into contact with out of the way presuming he didn't elect to DoG the serpent, and carry on from there until either the serpent would have passed or came to the end of it's movement.

Re-read the last paragraph before the Units falling back part of Tank shock.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
no you did not, you start by moving the first model you came into contact with out of the way presuming he didn't elect to DoG the serpent, and carry on from there until either the serpent would have passed or came to the end of it's movement.

Ok, so the tank comes into contact with the unit... and you move the tank shocked unit.... then you move the tank again... and you move the unit... and you move the tank again... and you move the unit... I'm not quote sure that's how it works...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is the Key phrase from what I understand:

Tank Shock says that they MUST retain coherency *AND* stay 1" away... Page 11 clearly shows that how unit coherency works. So if a tank stops in the middle of a formation coherency is broken, thus... Crunch!

My take is that both Kahn and the Chaplain would have to end up with 2 inches of another model (in coherency). The overall unit would not have coherency but you would have fulfilled the requirements for moving each model.

steinerp wrote:
My take is that both Kahn and the Chaplain would have to end up with 2 inches of another model (in coherency). The overall unit would not have coherency but you would have fulfilled the requirements for moving each model.

This exactly.

ok, how can a unit be in Coherency if the Unit is out of Coherenecy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bear in mind... there is a fail condition written clearly in the rules for a reason


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

steinerp wrote:
My take is that both Kahn and the Chaplain would have to end up with 2 inches of another model (in coherency). The overall unit would not have coherency but you would have fulfilled the requirements for moving each model.

This exactly.

As to the above statement... you have to keep to the order of operations....and that is to Move the model first... then check for coherency... not the other way around...

SaganGree wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
no you did not, you start by moving the first model you came into contact with out of the way presuming he didn't elect to DoG the serpent, and carry on from there until either the serpent would have passed or came to the end of it's movement.

Ok, so the tank comes into contact with the unit... and you move the tank shocked unit.... then you move the tank again... and you move the unit... and you move the tank again... and you move the unit... I'm not quote sure that's how it works...

not what I said, but I have just re-read it and rigeld2 has hit the nail on the head imo.

Since the models are fearless, they wave serpent simply moves through as if they weren't there (p. 85). If the serpent ends it move on top of the unit, no matter where in the conga line, the models are moved in one way or another to maintain coherency.

Your serpent is approximately 7 inches long and about 5 inches wide. Therefore, the bikes would need to make a 8x6 inch half-box around the tank. Given that bike bases are about 2 inches long, 9 bikes would be able to make a 36 inch long line, maintaining coherency and avoiding the serpent with ease.

 djm55 wrote:
Since the models are fearless, they wave serpent simply moves through as if they weren't there (p. 85). If the serpent ends it move on top of the unit, no matter where in the conga line, the models are moved in one way or another to maintain coherency.

Your serpent is approximately 7 inches long and about 5 inches wide. Therefore, the bikes would need to make a 8x6 inch half-box around the tank. Given that bike bases are about 2 inches long, 9 bikes would be able to make a 36 inch long line, maintaining coherency and avoiding the serpent with ease.

True... BUT, when tank shocked, the only models you are allowed to move are the ones under the tank

SaganGree wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

steinerp wrote:
My take is that both Kahn and the Chaplain would have to end up with 2 inches of another model (in coherency). The overall unit would not have coherency but you would have fulfilled the requirements for moving each model.

This exactly.

As to the above statement... you have to keep to the order of operations....and that is to Move the model first... then check for coherency... not the other way around...

Right - the model moves to more than 1" away and checks for coherency. Satisfied.
Second model moves to more than 1" away and checks for coherency. Satisfied.

The fact that the two models are not coherent with each other, nor is the unit in coherency is irrelevant. The Tank Shock rules are satisfied.

rigeld2 wrote:

SaganGree wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

steinerp wrote:
My take is that both Kahn and the Chaplain would have to end up with 2 inches of another model (in coherency). The overall unit would not have coherency but you would have fulfilled the requirements for moving each model.

This exactly.

As to the above statement... you have to keep to the order of operations....and that is to Move the model first... then check for coherency... not the other way around...

Right - the model moves to more than 1" away and checks for coherency. Satisfied.
Second model moves to more than 1" away and checks for coherency. Satisfied.

The fact that the two models are not coherent with each other, nor is the unit in coherency is irrelevant. The Tank Shock rules are satisfied.

rigeld2... you are well known for asking for specifics when it comes to rules... can you point out where in the rules there is a difference between individual coherency and unit coherency? The Tank Shock rules state that you MUST move 1" away from the tank and remain in coherency. As per your example:

...the model moves to more than 1" away and checks for coherency. False, the unit is NOT coherent
Second model moves to more than 1" away and checks for coherency. False, the unit is NOT coherent

I misremembered the Tank Shock rules - they do specify unit coherency.
Let me look some more.

Unit Coherency is defined: " once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no rnore than 2" W'e call this 'unit coherency.'"

So the "whole" unit must maintain the 2" distance.
If Khan is within 2" of one model but not the next then the "unit coherency" is broken and Khan dies.



As the Rules are written currently, tank shock is indeed, nasty right now.

Now... here's a thought to expand on this tactic...

Imagine a squad that just Deep Struck and is nice and packed. Then a Land Raider Tank Shocks right on top of the unit... as the rule states that the individual models MUST move the shortest possible distance, the unit would split to the two side of the LR and thus be out of coherency... and Squish!

No - the rule says the shortest distance while maintaining coherency.

They'd form a U around the Raider.

rigeld2 wrote:
No - the rule says the shortest distance while maintaining coherency.

They'd form a U around the Raider.

So if you went the opposit extreme and were shocked by a raider with a shock prow... would it be thin enough that the edge models wouldn't move?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically... in order for this tactic to work you have to have "anchoring" models on the sides. Cool


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, another question: What happens when you Tank Shock a Coherency broken Unit?

Personally, I have an issue with formatting used within the Tank shock rules. They contain this beautiful list that could be used to check if a model is crunched but instead wrote the list into the models movement itself. This act forces the mode to move in a specific way, not just the fastest path out from under a tank but the fastest path that does X, Y and Z as well. So instead of attempting to move the model and seeing if it would be crunched, we now move it in a specific way that all but guarantees that a model will not be crunched outside of a handful of situations.

It seems such a waste and renders the tactic of tank shock into nothing more then a method to 'push' enemy models around the battlefield....

JinxDragon wrote:

It seems such a waste and renders the tactic of tank shock into nothing more then a method to 'push' enemy models around the battlefield....

That's what it's been for 14 years.

I know, trust me I know... it seems the worse written a rule is, the more likelihood that Game Workshop editors will recycle it for the next dozen editions.....

JinxDragon wrote:
I know, trust me I know... it seems the worse written a rule is, the more likelihood that Game Workshop editors will recycle it for the next dozen editions.....

It is a very powerful tactic that can be used to deny or control objectives.

You can pre-place a unit on the opposite side of the target unit, spread out yet close. When you Tank Shock the target, the models in that unit have no place to go due to the blocking unit being in the way, causing a Crush. Takes practice, as the goal is to force the "shortest" distance to be into the awaiting blocker unit.

The same tactic can be used to destroy broken units falling back from combat they lost to non-sweeping units such as Terminators.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can pre-place a unit on the opposite side of the target unit, spread out yet close. When you Tank Shock the target, the models in that unit have no place to go due to the blocking unit being in the way, causing a Crush. Takes practice, as the goal is to force the "shortest" distance to be into the awaiting blocker unit.

That would obviously not be the shortest path that meets the requirements then, would it?

The same tactic can be used to destroy broken units falling back from combat they lost to non-sweeping units such as Terminators.

Only works if you essentially surround the "target" unit. The can move sideways, they just can't double back.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can pre-place a unit on the opposite side of the target unit, spread out yet close. When you Tank Shock the target, the models in that unit have no place to go due to the blocking unit being in the way, causing a Crush. Takes practice, as the goal is to force the "shortest" distance to be into the awaiting blocker unit.

That would obviously not be the shortest path that meets the requirements then, would it?

The same tactic can be used to destroy broken units falling back from combat they lost to non-sweeping units such as Terminators.

Only works if you essentially surround the "target" unit. The can move sideways, they just can't double back.

You just like to argue with me, regardless of subject. Luckly in this instance, your points don't actually negate my statements, as you in fact answered your own objection.

SJ

I'm not trying to argue, just clarifying.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can pre-place a unit on the opposite side of the target unit, spread out yet close. When you Tank Shock the target, the models in that unit have no place to go due to the blocking unit being in the way, causing a Crush. Takes practice, as the goal is to force the "shortest" distance to be into the awaiting blocker unit.

That would obviously not be the shortest path that meets the requirements then, would it?

The same tactic can be used to destroy broken units falling back from combat they lost to non-sweeping units such as Terminators.

Only works if you essentially surround the "target" unit. The can move sideways, they just can't double back.

You just like to argue with me, regardless of subject. Luckly in this instance, your points don't actually negate my statements, as you in fact answered your own objection.

SJ

The point does negate the suggestion. if there is room anywhere the unit being tank shocked mus move there whilst meeting the requirements.

As it is written the only way to Crunch a unit is to have it surrounded on all sides with enemy units/impassible terrain, and the Tank uses a Tank Shock to tank shock into the circle of units. Of course this can only be accomplished by skimmer tanks, as non skimmer tanks can not move through their own surrounding unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can pre-place a unit on the opposite side of the target unit, spread out yet close. When you Tank Shock the target, the models in that unit have no place to go due to the blocking unit being in the way, causing a Crush. Takes practice, as the goal is to force the "shortest" distance to be into the awaiting blocker unit.

That would obviously not be the shortest path that meets the requirements then, would it?

The same tactic can be used to destroy broken units falling back from combat they lost to non-sweeping units such as Terminators.

Only works if you essentially surround the "target" unit. The can move sideways, they just can't double back.

You just like to argue with me, regardless of subject. Luckly in this instance, your points don't actually negate my statements, as you in fact answered your own objection.

SJ

The point does negate the suggestion. if there is room anywhere the unit being tank shocked mus move there whilst meeting the requirements.

As it is written the only way to Crunch a unit is to have it surrounded on all sides with enemy units/impassible terrain, and the Tank uses a Tank Shock to tank shock into the circle of units. Of course this can only be accomplished by skimmer tanks, as non skimmer tanks can not move through their own surrounding unit.

Incorrect. You can "horseshoe" a unit with one or more friendlies, and tank shock the gap, ending the move on top of some but not all of the enemy models. This forces the displaced models out of coherency with the non-displaced models, Crushing the displaced ones. If the remaining models break, they die as they have nowhere to go. A good player will note when this tactic might work for them, set up the trap, and spring it by displacing the majority of the shocked unit.

I use to do this quite often with my GK back when 6th first came out, and I was running PAGK heavy with 2+ Land Raiders. I would bunch up the enemy unit with a Tank Shock, wrap up the sides with Interceptors, and do a second Tank Shock with another Land Raider through to gap. Worked fine then, still works in today's meta.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can pre-place a unit on the opposite side of the target unit, spread out yet close. When you Tank Shock the target, the models in that unit have no place to go due to the blocking unit being in the way, causing a Crush. Takes practice, as the goal is to force the "shortest" distance to be into the awaiting blocker unit.

That would obviously not be the shortest path that meets the requirements then, would it?

The same tactic can be used to destroy broken units falling back from combat they lost to non-sweeping units such as Terminators.

Only works if you essentially surround the "target" unit. The can move sideways, they just can't double back.

You just like to argue with me, regardless of subject. Luckly in this instance, your points don't actually negate my statements, as you in fact answered your own objection.

SJ

The point does negate the suggestion. if there is room anywhere the unit being tank shocked mus move there whilst meeting the requirements.

As it is written the only way to Crunch a unit is to have it surrounded on all sides with enemy units/impassible terrain, and the Tank uses a Tank Shock to tank shock into the circle of units. Of course this can only be accomplished by skimmer tanks, as non skimmer tanks can not move through their own surrounding unit.

Incorrect. You can "horseshoe" a unit with one or more friendlies, and tank shock the gap, ending the move on top of some but not all of the enemy models. This forces the displaced models out of coherency with the non-displaced models, Crushing the displaced ones. If the remaining models break, they die as they have nowhere to go. A good player will note when this tactic might work for them, set up the trap, and spring it by displacing the majority of the shocked unit.

I use to do this quite often with my GK back when 6th first came out, and I was running PAGK heavy with 2+ Land Raiders. I would bunch up the enemy unit with a Tank Shock, wrap up the sides with Interceptors, and do a second Tank Shock with another Land Raider through to gap. Worked fine then, still works in today's meta.

SJ

Not true, as there will be a space where the vehicle was that the models can move to.

Only the models the vehicle would end on are allowed to move. If you only land on part of the unit, those models must move, but must also maintain coherency with the models that aren't moving. That usually removes popping out the back of the tank as an option, as it would be too far to maintain coherency.

Chrysis wrote:
Only the models the vehicle would end on are allowed to move. If you only land on part of the unit, those models must move, but must also maintain coherency with the models that aren't moving. That usually removes popping out the back of the tank as an option, as it would be too far to maintain coherency.

Sure, but it is really tough to position a tank correctly for this to happen.