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So I just finished up a game at my FLGS, where I played one of the regulars. It was a fantastic game, and I can't wait to play him again, however we had an interesting rule come up that we couldn't resolve, so we moved on, and I thought I would ask it here.

The situation was GK Dreadknight attempting to flame two tanks that were a few inches apart, far enough that if the template could be stretched laterally from one to the other, could easily hit, but if placed so that it covered as much of one tank as it could, it would not hit the 2nd tank. Now the wording for the Incinerator on the Dreadknight is exactly the same as the new Torrent special rule on page 43, which my opponent interpreted as being able to place the smaller end of the template anywhere within 12" of the firing model as per the rule, and after he had placed the template it would THEN follow all the other rules for template weapons. This resulted in him placing the template over the middle of the tank, and then turning it to hit the 2nd tank. When I told him he needed to cover as much of the tank as possible, he protested that he didn't have to follow that template rule until after he had placed the narrow end of the template. Basically because the rules for the Incinerator (and all torrent weapons) use the phrase "...The weapons is THEN treated as like any other template weapon" (emphasis mine), he didn't have to actually cover as much of the tank as possible. This interpretation completely invalidates the rules on page 52 that state you have to cover as much of the target tank as possible, or as many of the models in the target unit as possible.

Am I missing something and this is completely legit? Any suggestions on how to convince him next time we meet if I am right?

-James

It is true you can place it within 12" of the turret, however the template rules still apply that you have to hit as many models in the first unit as possible. I know that you hit the side you are facing it regardless of how the torrent is worked. So I would interpret in the case of a tank unit of 1 that he could set it up to hit the other tank as long as he hit his primary target

Your friend is correct. You do not follow the rules for flamer templates until AFTER you have placed the template, so the only restrictions on where you can place the template are the ones specified in the Torrent USR. So, for example, if you have an IG Hellhound with a hull multimelta you can take a melta shot at a tank and drop the flamer template on an entirely separate unit (and the template doesn't have to touch the tank at all).

 Peregrine wrote:
Your friend is correct. You do not follow the rules for flamer templates until AFTER you have placed the template, so the only restrictions on where you can place the template are the ones specified in the Torrent USR. So, for example, if you have an IG Hellhound with a hull multimelta you can take a melta shot at a tank and drop the flamer template on an entirely separate unit (and the template doesn't have to touch the tank at all).

I completely disagree with this sentiment. I totally understand that this interpretation is most correct via the rules as written, but doing so creates completely absurd situations, like a torrent weapon somehow magically being able to fire 'through' a 100% solid wall to enemy units on the other side (out of line of sight) or into close combats, etc.

There simply isn't any reason why you can't apply the basic restrictions of what a template weapon must/cannot be placed over and apply that along with the torrent rules.

Given that the Torrent rule is specifically designed to get around restrictions on template placement; why is it unreasonable to say it by-passes all template placement restrictions?

The torrent rules are clearly the more 'specialized' and therefore take precedent. They are designed for one purpose alone, to give permission to place the template in a method that would otherwise be illegal. While it does not directly mention a few of the restrictions at the core of this debate, these restrictions are still found within the placement section of the standard template rules. Given that the more specific rules are designed to by-pass the standard placement rules, and the restrictions are within the standard placement rules, it will be very difficult to prove the Rule was Written with the intent for these placement restrictions to still apply.

These restrictions would need to be directly addressed by one of the many rule-sets in question and the failure to do so means permission to place within X radius at Y angle is all that matters.

Still this isn't as broken as people think as other restrictions do exist outside of the 'placement' of the template. Let us take shooting through a wall as the example to prove this fact. All wounds generated by a template placed via the torrent rules still follow the standard method for wound allocation. These allocation rules require line of sight to the model at time of allocation, preventing all weapons from being able to 'shoot around corners.' As this restriction is found outside of the placement rules, there is nothing in the torrent specialized rules that grants us permission to ignore them. Therefore it is never possible for a model to be wounded by a torrent weapon if the firer does not have line of sight, not without something else being in play as well.

There might be something to say about shooting into combat, but I am sure if I take a closer look at the rules I would find some restriction that prevents that as well.

JinxDragon wrote:
As there is nothing within these more specific rules that states to follow the restrictions at the core of this debate, it can not be proven that we need to follow them.

I would take this from the other side. You only get to override those rules that you specifically override - you can't just say you get to ignore other rules willy-nilly. Torrent clearly overrides the requirement to start the template in base contact with the firer. That's... It. It doesn't even say something like "anywhere within 12"", which could be taken as overriding other placement rules.

I thought the wording was you had to cover as many models as possible in the target unit with flamer templates. With vehicles as soon as you touch it you have satisfied that requirement.

 Flinty wrote:
I thought the wording was you had to cover as many models as possible in the target unit with flamer templates. With vehicles as soon as you touch it you have satisfied that requirement.

It specifically calls out vehicles and tells you to cover as much of it as you can without hitting a friendly model.

The standard rules do state to cover as much of a vehicle model as possible with a template weapon. They also state that the template must be placed with the narrow end touching the model and that the thick end is placed in a certain way as well. That go on to state that the template must never be placed in such a way that it touches a friendly model. It is a complete list and contains several other restrictions as well, all to inform us what is a legal and illegal placement.

Given that I have an alternative set of instructions, why am I following old instructions?

The Torrent rules are exactly that, a rule telling us to use an alternative list of instructions instead of the normal method of placement. Just because the new instruction list is shorter, doesn't mean we start filling in the blanks we perceive in said list. This new list of instructions simply informs us that we place the narrow end of the template within X distance and place the thick end of the template at a certain angle to the narrow end and nothing more. Any attempt to add additional restrictions to the Torrent rules are doing just that; perceiving a blank before filling it with steps found under the old instruction list.

 Quanar wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I thought the wording was you had to cover as many models as possible in the target unit with flamer templates. With vehicles as soon as you touch it you have satisfied that requirement.

It specifically calls out vehicles and tells you to cover as much of it as you can without hitting a friendly model.

Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the steer.

Doesn't the torrent rules say that after placing the template you follow the rest of the rules for template weapons?

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Doesn't the torrent rules say that after placing the template you follow the rest of the rules for template weapons?

Yes, but by then you've already placed the template...

If they ever FAQ it, I'm sure they'd add the other restrictions (not into combat, over friendly's etc.) because otherwise it breaks stuff. But for now the RAW seems to be that you've skipped those.

JinxDragon wrote:
Given that I have an alternative set of instructions, why am I following old instructions?

Because nothing says you can disregard the rules that are not overridden.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Torrent rules are exactly that, a rule telling us to use an alternative list of instructions instead of the normal method of placement.

No, they aren't. You're reading that into it, it's not in the rule. All they are is telling you that the narrow end starts somewhere else and restricting the direction. Everything else you're reading into it is you, not the rule.

JinxDragon wrote:
Any attempt to add additional restrictions to the Torrent rules are doing just that; perceiving a blank before filling it with steps found under the old instruction list.

That's entirely valid, though. If a rule changes A, there is no reason to assume it also changes B. A blank means the rules stay the same, not magically disappear.

I disagree,

Whenever a player is provided with an alternative list of instructions, and informed to use this list by a special rule, that player has no choice in the matter. The old list of instructions must be completely discarded, in their entity, and replaced with the new steps. Only when the new set of instructions informs a player to return to the older instructions are they required to actually do so. I would go as far to state they completely lack permission to even try to refer to the older steps without being told to by the new: A player, or the opponent, can not simply chose which instructions on which list they want to follow.

For this reason it is up to the writer of the alternative instructions to inform us which of the original restrictions are in place.

The quick solution is to declare Tank#1 the Target. You then place the small end of the Flamer Template on top of Tank#2, then rotate the Template to maximize coverage on Tank#1.
You are now hitting both while complying with all template rules.

You can do the same with troops outside a transport. Declare the transport the Hellhounds target. Position the template so the flamer hits as many dudes as possible, but the big end still hits the transport. You now get to roll wounds on all dude hit and the flamer hit on the transport. If you have a Hull Melta you can also fire that at the transport.

Pyrian wrote:
Because nothing says you can disregard the rules that are not overridden.

There's no overriding at all, it's a separate set of instructions. It says "do X, Y, Z, and then once you've done that start using these other rules".

All they are is telling you that the narrow end starts somewhere else and restricting the direction.

You're right, those are the only restrictions. You don't follow the template weapon rules until after you've placed the template within those restrictions.

If a rule changes A, there is no reason to assume it also changes B. A blank means the rules stay the same, not magically disappear.

But the Torrent USR doesn't change A, it invents an entirely new set of rules. It doesn't say "use it like a normal template weapon, but with the one difference that you may place it up to X" away", it says "place it up to X" away and then use the template weapon rules". Rule B never applies because you don't even look at it until after you've finished placing the template.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:
I totally understand that this interpretation is most correct via the rules as written, but doing so creates completely absurd situations, like a torrent weapon somehow magically being able to fire 'through' a 100% solid wall to enemy units on the other side (out of line of sight) or into close combats, etc.

Hitting out of LOS isn't a problem because flamer weapons still follow the normal rules for wound allocation. So you'd hit the models (just like a regular template can be placed over models out of LOS) but they could only be applied to members of that unit that aren't out of LOS. If the whole unit is out of LOS then the resulting wounds would be discarded entirely.

As for the rest, yeah, it's odd that torrent weapons can be used to kill models that are locked in combat, but it's not like there's no precedent for odd things like that in the rules. Blast weapons can also kill models that are locked in combat, friendly units, etc. Barrage weapons can snipe specific models out of a unit. Models in melee with one vehicle in a squadron can kill another vehicle in that squadron even though nobody was within 6" of it. You just have to accept that GW's choice of abstraction methods sometimes causes odd situations.

There simply isn't any reason why you can't apply the basic restrictions of what a template weapon must/cannot be placed over and apply that along with the torrent rules.

Sure. You're always free to argue that this would be a good house rule, and you'd probably get people to agree with you. But it isn't what the rules say.

I think the Torrent template would be placed as Torrent describes, and then adjusted to cover as much of the vehicle as possible while still maintaining that small end within 12" of the barrel. Once that small end can't be rotated or positioned any more, lest it break the Torrent rule, it can't cover the vehicle any more.

So the lesson is place your Torrent firing models wisely. And pray the Exalted Flamer gets Relentless or they Errata the weapons to be assault 1.

 Peregrine wrote:


As for the rest, yeah, it's odd that torrent weapons can be used to kill models that are locked in combat, but it's not like there's no precedent for odd things like that in the rules. Blast weapons can also kill models that are locked in combat, friendly units, etc. Barrage weapons can snipe specific models out of a unit. Models in melee with one vehicle in a squadron can kill another vehicle in that squadron even though nobody was within 6" of it. You just have to accept that GW's choice of abstraction methods sometimes causes odd situations.

There simply isn't any reason why you can't apply the basic restrictions of what a template weapon must/cannot be placed over and apply that along with the torrent rules.

Sure. You're always free to argue that this would be a good house rule, and you'd probably get people to agree with you. But it isn't what the rules say.

In the other situations you describe the rules specifically say that those weapons can perform those actions which break the normal rules for shooting.

The rules for firing into/out of close combat specify that Blasts can scatter into combat, but they specify that they cannot be deliberately placed there. Barrage weapons specify that they cause casualties starting from the center of the blast (which is different from the normal casualty rules).

Here, you're talking about an argument that allows the weapon to behave completely differently than any other weapon in the game. It totally disregards the whole point of a 'target' and allows the weapon to fire wherever it wants. If the unit firing a torrent weapon is firing any other weapons, using your interpretation the torrent weapon can fire at a completely different target than the rest of the unit's firing.

Similarly, if the unit firing a torrent weapon is able to assault, it can easily declare its official 'target' for the shooting as being an enemy unit 2" away and then actually fire the torrent template 12" away at a completely different enemy unit but then in the subsequent assault phase charge the official 'target'.

And again, this interpretation allows the torrent template to be placed and kill friendly models (including those in CC).

All these things are MAJOR exceptions from the basic rules of the game, yet NONE of these things are explicitly stated in the torrent rules, they are things that can occur only by the parsing of how the language in the rule is written.

So is it more likely that the designers 'secretly' intended for torrent weapons to break all these basic rules of the game or that they just didn't realize exactly how people would parse the language they used for the torrent rule?


Again, it is completely viable to play the torrent rule while still abiding to all the normal rules for templates (except that the torrent template is placed within 12" of the firing model instead of touching the firing model's base), so that is the way the rule must be played because the alternative is patently absurd.

 yakface wrote:
In the other situations you describe the rules specifically say that those weapons can perform those actions which break the normal rules for shooting.

But you don't need to say it explicitly, since it's covered by "anywhere within 12", large end not closer than small end". You only need to explicitly mention anything else if you're going to impose limits beyond that, just like you don't need to explicitly give rapid fire weapons permission to shoot at a target 28" away just because most rapid fire weapons only have 24" range.

Here, you're talking about an argument that allows the weapon to behave completely differently than any other weapon in the game. It totally disregards the whole point of a 'target' and allows the weapon to fire wherever it wants. If the unit firing a torrent weapon is firing any other weapons, using your interpretation the torrent weapon can fire at a completely different target than the rest of the unit's firing.

Exactly. If the Vendetta didn't exist this would make the Hellhound a pretty good unit since it could multimelta a tank and flame some infantry at the same time. Not that this is a problem, since 40k has plenty of other weapons/units that allow you to split fire between two targets.

Similarly, if the unit firing a torrent weapon is able to assault, it can easily declare its official 'target' for the shooting as being an enemy unit 2" away and then actually fire the torrent template 12" away at a completely different enemy unit but then in the subsequent assault phase charge the official 'target'.

Exactly. In that case you aren't shooting at the unit you put the template over, you're just coincidentally inflicting some casualties on it (kind of like a scattering blast weapon) so your only possible charge target is the unit that was the target of your shooting. It works like the Split Fire USR in this situation.

And again, this interpretation allows the torrent template to be placed and kill friendly models (including those in CC).

Yep, although it is unlikely that you'd ever want to use this option. I agree that it doesn't seem very fluffy to flamer snipe the last guardsman out of combat so the assault terminators are no longer locked and can be shot at, but hey, it's also stupid and unfluffy that the Basilisk is the ultimate sniper rifle.

So is it more likely that the designers 'secretly' intended for torrent weapons to break all these basic rules of the game or that they just didn't realize exactly how people would parse the language they used for the torrent rule?

I don't know what the author intended. I wouldn't have thought that any reasonable and intelligent person would feel that letting Farsight Tau and normal Tau ally so they can take five Riptides would be a good idea, but that's what GW did. Letting Hellhounds snipe models out of combat makes about as much sense as letting Basilisks snipe sergeants out of squads, so I don't see much reason to question it.

Again, it is completely viable to play the torrent rule while still abiding to all the normal rules for templates (except that the torrent template is placed within 12" of the firing model instead of touching the firing model's base), so that is the way the rule must be played because the alternative is patently absurd.

I agree. There's nothing forcing you to use all the "interesting" options torrent weapons offer. You're obviously free to limit yourself to following most of the normal template weapon rules. However, that's not what the actual rules of the game say.

 Peregrine wrote:

...it doesn't seem very fluffy to flamer snipe the last guardsman out of combat so the assault terminators are no longer locked and can be shot at...

That seems pretty fluffy to me. After all, it's only a Guardsman, we have more.

My first reading of the rules I agreed with Peregrine, but as I was writing that response I changed my mind. I think the torrent rule just allows the template to be place X distance away, with restrictions on where the large end can be placed. It still must follow the rules for templates in other regards, ie.. most models under the template.

 Peregrine wrote:

You don't follow the template weapon rules until after you've placed the template...

Peregrine, This is sort of what my opponent was saying. I guess what I don't understand is; if you get to ignore rules because "Its too late I already placed the template", what makes you follow the placement rules in the first place? For instance: Lets say I place a blast marker with the center hole under a model in the target unit as per the first sentence of placing a blast marker. At that point I have already placed the blast marker, so is it too late to follow any of the following rules for things like "must be in range" or "cannot be placed over friendly models"? Can I also ignore the rule for normal templates that says it must cover as much of a tank as possible because that sentence comes after the one where I place the template?

I understand your train of thought, and can't fault your logic, I just don't like the argument of "I don't have to follow all the rules for placing templates because I already placed the template and its too late to go back".

-James

thats the thing,

you guys are applying the only part of flamer weapons that does not apply to torrent,

the placement rules, for torrent, are in the torrent rule, not the flamer rule.

once you have placed it, you now use the flamer rules for hits/wounds/cover,

the flamer placement rules, are not the same as the torrent placement rules, simple as that. they do not apply.

it is supposed to represent someone bathing an area in fire, at a distance, seems reasonable to be able to hit two vehicles, fluff wise its correct,

RAW its correct,

and it doesnt break other stuff such as LOS as you cannot alllocate those wounds

 easysauce wrote:
thats the thing,

you guys are applying the only part of flamer weapons that does not apply to torrent,

the placement rules, for torrent, are in the torrent rule, not the flamer rule.

once you have placed it, you now use the flamer rules for hits/wounds/cover,

the flamer placement rules, are not the same as the torrent placement rules, simple as that. they do not apply.

it is supposed to represent someone bathing an area in fire, at a distance, seems reasonable to be able to hit two vehicles, fluff wise its correct,

RAW its correct,

and it doesnt break other stuff such as LOS as you cannot alllocate those wounds

No, but it does allow you to shoot into combat.

 Happyjew wrote:


No, but it does allow you to shoot into combat.

you can already do this with blast weapons the restrictions being so long as you are not covering friendly models.

this might be a little easier, as the template doesnt scatter and is longer.

but the torrent still cannot target friendlies, it simply has its own placement rule, instead of the placement rule for templates RE models/vehicles. so I doubt they will get many on purpose.

This will have some interesting combinations. I can have a Dreadknight fire a Heavy Psycannon at the tank, and set the flamer on an infantry unit behind him. Or declare I am shooting some guys I want to charge, and then have the template just happen to hit some guys nowhere near the target so I can get the charge without killing the closest models!

-James

 easysauce wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


No, but it does allow you to shoot into combat.

you can already do this with blast weapons the restrictions being so long as you are not covering friendly models.

this might be a little easier, as the template doesnt scatter and is longer.

but the torrent still cannot target friendlies, it simply has its own placement rule, instead of the placement rule for templates RE models/vehicles. so I doubt they will get many on purpose.

Citation required for blast weapons being allowed to be placed on units in combat.

Also, by claiming only the placement rule is changed, you can place the torrent template over friendly models, since that rule is in the Template placement rule.

but the torrent still cannot target friendlies, it simply has its own placement rule, instead of the placement rule for templates RE models/vehicles. so I doubt they will get many on purpose.

However, you do not follow the rules for template weapons until after the template has been placed.

 Peregrine wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Also, by claiming only the placement rule is changed, you can place the torrent template over friendly models, since that rule is in the Template placement rule.

However, you do not follow the rules for template weapons until after the template has been placed.

Which allows you to flame friendly models.

Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as any models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models

This is the rule you are claiming is replaced, which is the only reference to friendly models

IGJames wrote:
I guess what I don't understand is; if you get to ignore rules because "Its too late I already placed the template", what makes you follow the placement rules in the first place?

Because normally it presents a sequence of "do X then Y then Z", where even if they are separate sentences you're still told to follow all the restrictions in the whole sequence. The Torrent USR replaces that sequence with "do A then B then Z", where there are different restrictions. You don't have to follow placement rules X and Y because you don't enter that sequence of rules until a later point.

For instance: Lets say I place a blast marker with the center hole under a model in the target unit as per the first sentence of placing a blast marker. At that point I have already placed the blast marker, so is it too late to follow any of the following rules for things like "must be in range" or "cannot be placed over friendly models"? Can I also ignore the rule for normal templates that says it must cover as much of a tank as possible because that sentence comes after the one where I place the template?

No, because you are told to follow ALL of those rules even if they are separate sentences. Torrent weapons have their own rules for placing the template and don't start using the standard template weapon rules until after the template is placed (for example, they use the "no cover" part of those rules).

I understand your train of thought, and can't fault your logic, I just don't like the argument of "I don't have to follow all the rules for placing templates because I already placed the template and its too late to go back".

But that's not what it is. It's not a case of "too late to go back", the rules you're supposedly "breaking" don't exist at all for torrent weapons. It's like how blast weapons do their special thing and then tell you to resolve their wounds according to the usual rules, that doesn't mean there's a debate over whether it's too late to go back and roll to hit using your BS just because rolling to hit using BS is part of the normal hit -> wound -> save sequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
stuff

Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong post there. We're in agreement on this.