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Hey Dakka.. I want some other bright minds on this. I have read the threads on this, issue before, but want a fresh set of neurons to look.

As the title says... I am really trying to make this unit not be as terrible as the internet has made it out to be.

The argument goes something like this... The unit sucks and is entirely unusable, because it can only ever realistically move and make snap shots.. so is entirely worthless.

I can't for the life of me find why this is the case. Yes it is a fragile unit, Yes it must be handled with care, but it should be usable instead of a unit that just does NOT do what is advertised.

The argument is that according to the transport rules in the BRB pg 78 transports can move at combat speed and fire 1 weapon normal BS and snap the rest or move cruising speed and make snapshots with everything. Rendering the burning chariot all but completely useless. For a fragile unit with short range weapons, this just does NOT make sense for this kind of vehicle. In the White Dwarf battle report, this is not how the unit was played.

The unit entry in the Codex on pg 102. States the vehicle type: Chariot/Fast/Open-Topped/Skimmer
It does not list "Transport" among those options, so that says to me those rules to not apply, and it is simply a Chariot/Fast/Skimmer in regards to its shooting, and thus can move at cruising speed, make a sweep attack, shoot both weapons at full BS in the shooting phase, and then assault as Chariots are Relentless.

Seems to me they separated out the Exalted Flamer because they required a profile to use for the Assault phase, and also for Sweep Attacks. As the unit can't even disembark, I don't even see the argument that the Flamer is a separate unit in a transport.

If there is a piece of the puzzle I am not seeing Dakka, please let me know... but I really want to make this model usable, as I got a pair day one of release, painted them well, and they have simply sat on a shelf unused because of the poor portrayal of the unit online and in battle reports.

The Blue/Pink Fire of Tzeentch is given to the Exalted Flamer, not the Burning Chariot. As such you have two options:

1. Since the Chariot is not a Transport, the Exalted Flamer has no permission to shoot out of it.
2. The Exalted Flamer is allowed to shoot, however, if the chariot moves, the Exalted Flamer counts as having moved and must fire Snap Shots.

I'll let you decide which of the two is less broken.

 Happyjew wrote:
The Blue/Pink Fire of Tzeentch is given to the Exalted Flamer, not the Burning Chariot. As such you have two options:

1. Since the Chariot is not a Transport, the Exalted Flamer has no permission to shoot out of it.
2. The Exalted Flamer is allowed to shoot, however, if the chariot moves, the Exalted Flamer counts as having moved and must fire Snap Shots.

I'll let you decide which of the two is less broken.

}

1. Isn't it a Chariot though? I thought you are allowed to shoot out of a chariot?
2. Lascannon snap shots are not that bad

Interesting point though, technically none of the Chariots in Codex Chaos Daemons are "Transports". Now it logically follows that something with a "Transport Capacity" are a Transport and the descriptive text for the Chariot entry describes how they "differ from other Transports" but unlike say the Rhino entry in Codex Chaos Space Marines they don't have "Transport" listed in their unit type.
Now I don't agree that this would allow the Exalted Flamer to fire as if it was the vehicle that was firing, or that I really believe they're not Transports but it's an interesting situation that a vehicle can be bought as a Dedicated Transport without the Transport rule.

The issue is, is that blue and pink fire of tzeentch is both heavy weapons that the exalted flamer shoots. The exalted flamer himself is not relentless so thus if he could even shoot out of the chariot which is arguable. He can only snap fire one of the attacks if the chariot moved. The only other weapon is a template which can't even snap fire.

 Happyjew wrote:
The Blue/Pink Fire of Tzeentch is given to the Exalted Flamer, not the Burning Chariot. As such you have two options:

1. Since the Chariot is not a Transport, the Exalted Flamer has no permission to shoot out of it.
2. The Exalted Flamer is allowed to shoot, however, if the chariot moves, the Exalted Flamer counts as having moved and must fire Snap Shots.

I'll let you decide which of the two is less broken.

1. No. That is just not correct. A necron overlord can certainly fire his staff of light out of a CCB, so that just does not compute for me.

2. The weapon profile listing is there to distinguish the armament on the chariot based on which unit is inside of it, aka Exalted Flamer vs Herald of Tzeench. The chariot only has Blue/Pink Fire if the rider is an Exalted Flamer, not when a Herald is on it.

swedishchef123 wrote:

2. The weapon profile listing is there to distinguish the armament on the chariot based on which unit is inside of it, aka Exalted Flamer vs Herald of Tzeench. The chariot only has Blue/Pink Fire if the rider is an Exalted Flamer, not when a Herald is on it.

No where in the codex does it say this. It does say that the two weapons are only the Exalted Flamer's gifts on page 102. Point being the guns are on the Flamers, not the chariot .

swedishchef123 wrote:
1. No. That is just not correct. A necron overlord can certainly fire his staff of light out of a CCB, so that just does not compute for me.

And the rules for the CCB say it's open-topped and therefore a transport, in addition to the fact that it has a Transport Capacity.

2. The weapon profile listing is there to distinguish the armament on the chariot based on which unit is inside of it, aka Exalted Flamer vs Herald of Tzeench. The chariot only has Blue/Pink Fire if the rider is an Exalted Flamer, not when a Herald is on it.

The Exalted Chariot has a Transport Capacity. How is it not a Transport when it has a Transport Capacity?

Saying everything that has a transport capacity is a transport is about like saying all special characters are IC. There is a distinction due to a lack of a usr or type.

 raiden wrote:
Saying everything that has a transport capacity is a transport is about like saying all special characters are IC. There is a distinction due to a lack of a usr or type.

There are rules for special characters without the IC rule.
There are no rules for Transports that aren't.

Cite the rules for embarking in a chariot. Since it isn't a transport you cannot refer to those rules.
Heck - find permission anywhere to even begin deployed in a non-transport. I'll wait.

swedishchef123 wrote:
The unit entry in the Codex on pg 102. States the vehicle type: Chariot/Fast/Open-Topped/Skimmer
It does not list "Transport" among those options,

That solves the problem handily then - the Herald can buy it but not actually ride it.

Or we could be reasonable and figure someone's managed to drop "transport" from the description.

The Chariot is all kinds of broken. We simply play it as the Herald is relentless in the chariot. (HIWPI)