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Can a single model EVER make a disordered charge? Can you position a model in such a way that you inadvertently touch a secondary target on your way to the primary target? Does this change depending on their base size as your charge lane gets wider?

Do you personally follow all the rules of disordered charges: that is:
"A charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target."




This is one that I think the rules are fairly clear on: No, you CANNOT contact a secondary target unless no model can contact the primary target. Thus, a single model cannot possibly make a disordered charge, as being unable to contact its primary target means it could make no charge at all.

However, I ran into a lot of opposition at a local tournament the other day when I brought it up. It didn't affect my game (I'd already basically lost) but my opponent said that he'd lost a tournament a few weeks earlier when an opponent used the same move.

What say you, DakkaDakka? Is this the way that you play?

It looks like you can't.

Trasvi wrote:
Can a single model EVER make a disordered charge?

No, a Single model may not ever make a disordered charge.

"Once Overwatch is resolved, find the initial charger for the primary assault (the model in the charging unit closest to the primary target) and attempt to move it into base contact with the primary target, just as you would against a single target" (28)(Emphasis mine)

can you contact any other units when charging a single target?

edit: did not see page 28.

No, you can't. With a single charging model you will never have an inability to place that model in base contact with an unengaged enemy model in the primary target and have a successful charge.

I am replying because I am surprised no one mentioned the but...

A single model can declare a Disordered Charge by Declaring Multi-charge with 2 different enemy units. Both enemy units get to overwatch and if the charge distance rolled is enough to make it to the primary target then the assault is successful. The single model can't make contact with the secondary target so will not engage it in combat.

This could be useful if say you wanted to have one less attack and no furious charge in order to hopefully not wipe the enemy unit on the charge and be left a sitting duck for return fire.

I can't remember where, but I think there was some pschyic power or special ability that made enemy unit count as disorded chage, and that would still work against a single model unit.

 denny1824 wrote:
I am replying because I am surprised no one mentioned the but...

A single model can declare a Disordered Charge by Declaring Multi-charge with 2 different enemy units. Both enemy units get to overwatch and if the charge distance rolled is enough to make it to the primary target then the assault is successful. The single model can't make contact with the secondary target so will not engage it in combat.

This could be useful if say you wanted to have one less attack and no furious charge in order to hopefully not wipe the enemy unit on the charge and be left a sitting duck for return fire.

I can't remember where, but I think there was some pschyic power or special ability that made enemy unit count as disorded chage, and that would still work against a single model unit.

You must have missed my earlier post:

a Single model may not ever make a disordered charge.

"Once Overwatch is resolved, find the initial charger for the primary assault (the model in the charging unit closest to the primary target) and attempt to move it into base contact with the primary target, just as you would against a single target" (28)(Emphasis mine)

Can you contact any other units when charging a single target?

You're both sort of right. He can declare a Disordered Charge, and thus lose his bonus charge attack, furious charge, etc. But he'll never be able to actually charge multiple units for the reasons DeathReaper points out, so all he'll be doing is throwing those bonuses away.

Could be handy if you wanted to keep the enemy alive until their assault phase ?

I don't think you can declare a charge target you cannot possibly reach.

Pyrian wrote:
I don't think you can declare a charge target you cannot possibly reach.

You are correct.

"A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach," (20)

Therefore you can not even declare a multi-charge with a single model. So you will always get your bonus attack when declaring a charge with a single model.

Which applies to distance, as noted by the following sentence in that rule. Which may not apply in this case.

I don't think the following sentence constrains the rule. "This means...usually..." is hardly a get-out-of-rule free card.

Pyrian wrote:
I don't think the following sentence constrains the rule. "This means...usually..." is hardly a get-out-of-rule free card.

Exactly this.

"This means that a charge can usually only be declared on a unit up to 12" away" (20)

But usually is not all situations.

In this case you can not ever reach the second unit therefore you can not declare a charge against them.

If the model has range to charge either unit then they are both within reach and therefore valid targets for a charge. Don't confuse not being able to reach the second unit with it not being possible to have reached that unit.

Can you declare a charge on unit A? check range>5">Yes.
Can you declare a charge on unit B? check range>7">Yes.

Please explain how either unit can be considered 'out of reach'.

 Abandon wrote:
If the model has range to charge either unit then they are both within reach and therefore valid targets for a charge. Don't confuse not being able to reach the second unit with it not being possible to have reached that unit.

Can you declare a charge on unit A? check range>5">Yes.
Can you declare a charge on unit B? check range>7">Yes.

Please explain how either unit can be considered 'out of reach'.

Not out of reach, cannot reach. "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach," (20)


You cannot reach the second unit because you have to move into base contact with the first unit by the shortest route...

How about some clever positioning and a large base...

Contact your charge target by the shortest route... and manage to just get your secondary target.

I know it would be next to impossible to pull off, but potentially it could work.. eg you are charging into the space which was previously occupied by a model of your same base size which died in a previous round of combat and your opponent didn't consolidate.

Trasvi wrote:


How about some clever positioning and a large base...

Contact your charge target by the shortest route... and manage to just get your secondary target.

I know it would be next to impossible to pull off, but potentially it could work.. eg you are charging into the space which was previously occupied by a model of your same base size which died in a previous round of combat and your opponent didn't consolidate.

Not next to impossible, actually impossible. You must charge the first target with the closest model as if it's the only target. If it's the only target, you aren't allowed to end in base contact with any other unit. If you contact more than one unit with the closest model in the charging unit you are cheating.

Trasvi wrote:


How about some clever positioning and a large base...

Contact your charge target by the shortest route... and manage to just get your secondary target.

I know it would be next to impossible to pull off, but potentially it could work.. eg you are charging into the space which was previously occupied by a model of your same base size which died in a previous round of combat and your opponent didn't consolidate.

You not allowed to move within an 1" of an enemy model you aren't charging

 CrownAxe wrote:
You not allowed to move within an 1" of an enemy model you aren't charging

That is not true, the rule is you can not bein base contact with amodel n a unit you are not charging.

So you have to be at least 0.000000000001 inches away (Basically any distance that is not touching the base).

Chrysis wrote:

Trasvi wrote:


How about some clever positioning and a large base...

Contact your charge target by the shortest route... and manage to just get your secondary target.

I know it would be next to impossible to pull off, but potentially it could work.. eg you are charging into the space which was previously occupied by a model of your same base size which died in a previous round of combat and your opponent didn't consolidate.

Not next to impossible, actually impossible. You must charge the first target with the closest model as if it's the only target. If it's the only target, you aren't allowed to end in base contact with any other unit. If you contact more than one unit with the closest model in the charging unit you are cheating.

Chrysis is correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You not allowed to move within an 1" of an enemy model you aren't charging

That is not true, the rule is you can not bein base contact with amodel n a unit you are not charging.

So you have to be at least 0.000000000001 inches away (Basically any distance that is not touching the base).
.

That is incorrect, you cannot move within 1" of an enemy unless you are charging them.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You not allowed to move within an 1" of an enemy model you aren't charging

That is not true, the rule is you can not bein base contact with amodel n a unit you are not charging.

So you have to be at least 0.000000000001 inches away (Basically any distance that is not touching the base).
.

That is incorrect, you cannot move within 1" of an enemy unless you are charging them.

I suggest you read the charge rules again. The 1" restriction is lifted on "Enemy models" not "models in the target unit." You can move within 1" of any enemy during a charge move, but aren't allowed to make base contact unless you're charging them. And when the closest model in a charging unit moves they are only charging one unit, no matter how many they declared against.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You not allowed to move within an 1" of an enemy model you aren't charging

That is not true, the rule is you can not bein base contact with amodel n a unit you are not charging.

So you have to be at least 0.000000000001 inches away (Basically any distance that is not touching the base).
.

That is incorrect, you cannot move within 1" of an enemy unless you are charging them.

As Chrysis said, please re-read the rules for charging.

the 1 inch restriction is lifted when making charge moves.

Ergo, you telling me I was incorrect, is incorrect.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You not allowed to move within an 1" of an enemy model you aren't charging

That is not true, the rule is you can not bein base contact with amodel n a unit you are not charging.

So you have to be at least 0.000000000001 inches away (Basically any distance that is not touching the base).
.

That is incorrect, you cannot move within 1" of an enemy unless you are charging them.

You're thinking of fourth edition, that rule hasn't existed since then.

I'm just pointing out that if unit A can be reached by a charge and unit B can be reached by a charge. Both are valid targets for a charge. As all charges are declared at once and both are within reach the attacking unit is permitted to declare a disordered charge. No rule differentiates a unit of one model from a unit with multiple models in this regard.

The rule restricting you from declaring a charge on a unit you cannot reach does not stop you because both targets indeed can be reached right up until a charge is declared. Since "all targets being charged by the unit must be declared at the same time" neither is eliminated as a potential target that can be reached until after the the charge has been declared. Only at that time can it be said that the unit with only one model 'cannot reach' the second target.

At the time you declare your charge, both units can be reached.

 Abandon wrote:
I'm just pointing out that if unit A can be reached by a charge and unit B can be reached by a charge. Both are valid targets for a charge. As all charges are declared at once and both are within reach the attacking unit is permitted to declare a disordered charge. No rule differentiates a unit of one model from a unit with multiple models in this regard.

This is of course false as the rules have shown. Both are not in reach as you have to move the initial charger just as you would against a single target.

If you are a single model then there is no way to reach the 2nd unit, therefore you may never even declare a multi-charge with a single model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'm just pointing out that if unit A can be reached by a charge and unit B can be reached by a charge. Both are valid targets for a charge. As all charges are declared at once and both are within reach the attacking unit is permitted to declare a disordered charge. No rule differentiates a unit of one model from a unit with multiple models in this regard.

This is of course false as the rules have shown. Both are not in reach as you have to move the initial charger just as you would against a single target.

If you are a single model then there is no way to reach the 2nd unit, therefore you may never even declare a multi-charge with a single model.

This is only true after you have declared your charge. At the time of declaration, both are valid targets for a charge.

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'm just pointing out that if unit A can be reached by a charge and unit B can be reached by a charge. Both are valid targets for a charge. As all charges are declared at once and both are within reach the attacking unit is permitted to declare a disordered charge. No rule differentiates a unit of one model from a unit with multiple models in this regard.

This is of course false as the rules have shown. Both are not in reach as you have to move the initial charger just as you would against a single target.

If you are a single model then there is no way to reach the 2nd unit, therefore you may never even declare a multi-charge with a single model.

This is only true after you have declared your charge. At the time of declaration, both are valid targets for a charge.

Taking all rules into account they are not both valid targets as you can not reach two different units with a single model.

The RAW seems to have certain phrases which disallow disorganized charges from single units:

"If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the
primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging
to either the primary or secondary target units"

This seems to indicate only multi-model units are capable of a disorganized charge.

Then there is also this curiosity:

"That said, a charging
model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in
a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with
an unengaged modei in the primary target."

This seems to insinuate that NO model may EVER assault in such a way that its base ends up in base contact with more than one unit! If you can reach the primary unit, you HAVE to assault the primary unit, WITHOUT touching the secondary! You CANNOT assault the secondary if you can reach the primary!

This could result in odd situations, especially for larger base models... where you COULD move into base contact with the primary unit, but ONLY if you also move within base contact of the secondary unit as well! The rules seem to indicate that a model in this situation CAN'T MOVE, which is pretty odd.

It seems more logical to me that if you meet the condition for "move into base contact with the Primary Unit" then this frees you to also assault the secondary unit at the same time if possible.

However, I think what precludes even LARGE bases from multi-assaulting is the "Shortest Distance Possible" rule for the initial charger. The models would have to be PERFECTLY aligned for you to assault both primary and secondary units going by the shortest route possible. In 99% of the cases, you'd need to move SLIGHTLY to the left or the right in order to contact the secondary unit. That's not the shortest route, so I don't think you can do it.

If a single model does NOT have to abide by the "shortest route" roll, then weird things can happen.

You could assault a model 2" in front of you, roll an "8" for your assault move, and then assault the unit in front of you AND a unit that is close BEHIND that unit. I don't think it's the intention to allow single models to make this kind of an Assault. If you don't have to abide by the "shortest distance" rule, then you CAN make this kind of assault, so I think that's a good practical "real world" example of why the rules don't intend to let you do it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'm just pointing out that if unit A can be reached by a charge and unit B can be reached by a charge. Both are valid targets for a charge. As all charges are declared at once and both are within reach the attacking unit is permitted to declare a disordered charge. No rule differentiates a unit of one model from a unit with multiple models in this regard.

This is of course false as the rules have shown. Both are not in reach as you have to move the initial charger just as you would against a single target.

If you are a single model then there is no way to reach the 2nd unit, therefore you may never even declare a multi-charge with a single model.

This is only true after you have declared your charge. At the time of declaration, both are valid targets for a charge.

Taking all rules into account they are not both valid targets as you can not reach two different units with a single model.

So at the time of declaration, which one cannot be reached A or B?

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'm just pointing out that if unit A can be reached by a charge and unit B can be reached by a charge. Both are valid targets for a charge. As all charges are declared at once and both are within reach the attacking unit is permitted to declare a disordered charge. No rule differentiates a unit of one model from a unit with multiple models in this regard.

This is of course false as the rules have shown. Both are not in reach as you have to move the initial charger just as you would against a single target.

If you are a single model then there is no way to reach the 2nd unit, therefore you may never even declare a multi-charge with a single model.

This is only true after you have declared your charge. At the time of declaration, both are valid targets for a charge.

Taking all rules into account they are not both valid targets as you can not reach two different units with a single model.

So at the time of declaration, which one cannot be reached A or B?

The one you are trying to declare as a secondary target.