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So I like to take armies and make weird lists out of them. So I looked at Dark Angels and so how you could make a good gun line out of them.

1850

HQ
1-Techmarine-115
servo-harness, 4 servitors

1-Techmarine-115
servo-harness, 4 servitors

Troops
10-Marines-200
1 heavy bolter,1 plasma cannon, rhino

10 Marines-200
1 heavy bolter,1 plasma cannon, rhino

10 Marines-200
1 heavy bolter,1 plasma cannon, rhino

Fast attack
1-darkshroud-80
1-darkshroud-80
1-darkshroud-80

Heavy support
1-Predator-100
heavy bolter sponsons

1-Predator-115
lascannon sponsons

1-Predator-115
lascannon sponsons

Ally
BLOOD ANGELS

HQ
1-Captain

Troops
6 Marines-106

Fast attack
1-Baal predator
Heavy bolter sponsons

Heavy support
1-Predator-100
heavy bolter sponsons

The plan is very simple turn 1 and 2 is to take out the enemy heavy support and elites. Then turn 3 have the 3 squads of rhinos take the objectives. Like always looking for ideas to make the list better and just remember this is just a fun list not the normal so just have fun with it.

drop the BA allies they don't do much for you. instead consider taking a command squad w/ the banner of devastation. (its a must for any type of gunline imo) w/ a landraider to ride in.

DA are the worst 6th edition book. Not only that, there are probably five 5th edition books that are better than it. (GK, Necrons, Wolves, BA, Nids). So basically I'm spotting you DE, Orks and Sisters (who are technically a 4th ed book, though I'm not sure where you'd place the new digital update thing, I digress).

The point is, there is no such thing as a good DA gunline. There's barely such a thing as a good DA list at all.

The most competitive list you can field with DA is a mix or Land Raider Crusaders, one of which holds the dakka banner, and some Ravenwing bikes to relentless salvo 4 things.

I leave you with this crushing reality. Follow the rest of us, just proxy your DA as vanilla marines. Let it go lol.

^^ this is not true. all marine dex's are lackluster compared to tau/eldar/deamons (hey, we have it better than chaos marines as a whole)

the DA book is imo, better than most of the 5th edit. codexs by far. ( note, the HQ choices are... bleh)

the point is marines don't do gunlines well. not enough range. marines always get out shot/out ranged in gunlines.

consider making a mixwing. (azreal HQ, 2-3 DW termiantors, 2-3 RW bikers, 2-3 tac squads w/ a banner of dev)

It is irrefutably true. After 6 months of data from nearly every major tournament in North America, Torrent of Fire has Dark Angels ranked second to last among all codices in win percentage.

so? where are normal marines at atm? personally I have played a game or two vs "tourney armies" and my mix wing has come out on top or received a draw more often than not.

Space Marines are 5th overall. That might be a little inflated because grav bike spam armies are much better than all other marine builds.

I'm not saying you or the OP shouldn't play DA or that you can't win games with them. I just want the OP to have realistic expectations for DA's place in the meta.

I personally prefer RW over C:SM bikes, (though the 4+ cover on jink IS nice). as I prefer melta squads anyway :3. sure we don't have grav guns, which I agree are REALLY nice but we do have the banner of dev haha.(for what thats worth) I see many people play DW or RW only armies, I feel a lot of the DA potential is wasted here, If you want a true competitve list mixwing is the only real way imo. Plus we have access to divination easily. (only tiggy has this in the C:SM IIRC)

Well with the inquisition codex, marines can have also a divination psyker (even if in my opinion it is less usefull than a libby even if a lot cheaper).
Anyway, The Shrike, i don't agree with you and i agree(more or less) with raiden.

Personally in the tournament i'm in right in these weeks, i'm using a DA full list, with 2 crusaders, dakka banner, one or two RW squadrons, two-three tacts and devs, with usually one or two libby, and man, i'm doing really good. For now i've beaten a nids, GK, orks, and sir (got the dice god love me for once) i've tabled a SM player on turn 3 (he was using IF chapter with IH allies), and last match got a draw with an eldar player, without to much pain.

So, ye i think DA can do well, ofc in uber-competitive tournaments they will be wiped out, but if you're not facing o'vesa star, wave serpent spam, flying circus, you got a chance, and btw nearly everyone got problems with those lists.
Plus i've faced a grav-bike spam list (friendly match here) and i don't think this it is a real threat, as against my usuall list, due the volume of fire, usually the bikes will face like 48-72 shots before having the chance to open fire with grav guns, and even with T5 and 4+ cover, those are too much shots to save them all, and even if they pass throught it, there is still my black knights/RW command squad to do short work of them (with ideally -1 to T and about 4 plasmas (8 if i move them closer)

To the OP, drop al least two darkshrouds, plus the hb on tacticals don't do well.
Then drop the allies and take some bike (i mean at least a full squadron)
Also, i suppose the techs and servitors are there to keep the vehicles up, well if my math skill do not suck, you will need only three servitors for a sure repair, so you could drop one servitor (better) or give him a heavy weap (not worth)

Last but not least, i'm surprised no one told you this before, your list is illegal, as you cannot take techs as indipendant HQ, you can buy them only as additional to a HQ (eg. a libby would allow you to buy one tech) so if you want to field two techs you need at least two HQs

Also, I believe that you can only have one heavy weapon per tactical squad, regardless of size. Unless you meant plasma GUN you cannot have a heavy bolter and a plasma cannon in the same squad. You can take a heavy or special at 5 men, and then the other at 10. I would not recommend the heavy bolter, even though they are cool.

And it is true about the Techmarine thing. You need another HQ to take a tech marine but he can act independently. Also, you can give those techmarines a Power FIeld Generator, and I would recommend it. Giving that tank like a 4+ invulnerable save, and being able to repair them is pretty decent I'd think.

- VardenV2

So I like the ideas and you are right Kimbaras about the Techmarines over looked that rule . and VardenV2 about the weapons. So it looks like overall people say DA gun line are bad. But why are DA gun line bad they have the darkshouds for cover and most of the weapons are around 48'' so range is not much of a problem.

I won't derail the thread further, but I do think we're talking about different levels of competition. If you go to a local tournament, people aren't typically going to have top tier lists, or they won't be running them at maximum efficiency, or they won't be running them properly from a tactical perspective.

Now that we put that to bed, to the OP:

Once you get legal, consider including a Stormraven in the BA detachment. DA anti-air is abysmal; so this will help you out a bit.

Also, notice all the discussion we had about what DA selections could be competitive. People talked about multiple LRCs (one with a PACS toting a dakka banner), multiple squads of bikes to accompany said banner. Build around that. Then, if you want to add a predator or something because you like them, well fine but at least you have a good base.

Best of luck.

The strike is right, I got into 40k starting with the dark vengeance boxed set where I gravitated to the Dark Angels.

Now that I'm over 1000 dollars spent on this hobby I feel like there has been some kind of sick joke played on me. I've got close to 5000 points of models now, and really struggle to beat anybody, and just get outclassed constantly by normal marines which my meta largely consists of. It's extremely frustrating to have spent over a thousand dollars on models, and modelling supplies only to find out that you are the bottom of the barrel as far as competitiveness goes.

It's also very true what he's saying about the most competitive list coming down to a LRC with a dakka pole inside of it surrounded by bikes. I came to this conclusion on my own by just trying to figure out a list that works. Anyway a bit depressing reading these topics.

Yeah it is depressing. I played DA as my main army for a decade and I will always own them.

DA sadly bring very little to the competitive scene right now, even less-so now that Inquisitors can bring divination to SM armies for less points than DA librarian allies. However, if you are looking to field a cool army with decent fluff and cool models, I think DA are still great in that regard. Really depends on what you want to get out of them.

The thing is that everything that makes DA unique compared to SM is either bad, or is hard-countered by many of the common lists. DA should have great bikes and terminators. They do have good bikes and they have mediocre terminators, in an environment where terminators are already pretty mediocre. They also lack a lot of the strong support elements that regular marines have such as thunderfire cannons, decent chapter tactics, storm ravens, storm talons, sterngaurd, good company master wargear etc. A lot of the flavor units in DA are simply bad. It leads you to take blander units that are then outclassed by other dexes. The things that should make DA stand out are the units that hold them back :/

- VardenV2

 VardenV2 wrote:
Yeah it is depressing..

The thing is that everything that makes DA unique compared to SM is either bad, or is hard-countered by many of the common lists. DA should have great bikes and terminators. They do have good bikes and they have mediocre terminators, in an environment where terminators are already pretty mediocre. They also lack a lot of the strong support elements that regular marines have such as thunderfire cannons, decent chapter tactics, storm ravens, storm talons, sterngaurd, good company master wargear etc. A lot of the flavor units in DA are simply bad. It leads you to take blander units that are then outclassed by other dexes. The things that should make DA stand out are the units that hold them back :/

- VardenV2

this is, IMO, completely wrong. They have the best terminators there are (though the extra points make them meh, but thats preferred enemy built in for ya) they are THE most customizable terms in game, capable of going 4 TH/SS and 1 heavy weapon per 5, or 1-2 TH/SS for tanking and the rest normal w/ a heavy weapon. (also remember vengeful strike, and split fire, for the shooty terms) that being said, this is certainly not the edition of terminators, if they could take 2 heavy weps per squad and were T5 they would be worth there points IMO.

 The Shrike wrote:
It is irrefutably true. After 6 months of data from nearly every major tournament in North America, Torrent of Fire has Dark Angels ranked second to last among all codices in win percentage.

Those numbers are pretty hollow without their proper context. By the time the 2013 tournament season got under way, many of the most pervasive members of the competitive community had already moved on from the DA's. Not really because they couldn't win with them, because they could, and did, but because they gravitated towards the new hotness that was Tau, Eldar, and now the Blue book. That's the way the competitive community has always worked.

DA's still have some interesting, and not thoroughly tested, builds. And the potentiality of those builds is constantly changing as the meta, the DA ally matrix, and other elements are constantly changing.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
It is irrefutably true. After 6 months of data from nearly every major tournament in North America, Torrent of Fire has Dark Angels ranked second to last among all codices in win percentage.

Those numbers are pretty hollow without their proper context. By the time the 2013 tournament season got under way, many of the most pervasive members of the competitive community had already moved on from the DA's. Not really because they couldn't win with them, because they could, and did, but because they gravitated towards the new hotness that was Tau, Eldar, and now the Blue book. That's the way the competitive community has always worked.

DA's still have some interesting, and not thoroughly tested, builds. And the potentiality of those builds is constantly changing as the meta, the DA ally matrix, and other elements are constantly changing.

You sound like someone arguing against mathhammer because we use dice. Your reason are silly, and not valid.

If you look at the armies by wins.http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies You'll see nobody else has as terrible of a record, but keeps trying. Dark angels with twice as many wins as losses with 250 games in tournaments. It's nonsense to think that flavor of the months are why dark angels have a terrible record.

You sound like someone arguing against mathhammer because we use dice. Your reason are silly, and not valid.

If you look at the armies by wins.http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies You'll see nobody else has as terrible of a record, but keeps trying. Dark angels with twice as many wins as losses with 250 games in tournaments. It's nonsense to think that flavor of the months are why dark angels have a terrible record.

Actually, if you look directly at what is being fielded, who is fielding it, and who they are losing to, everything I just said is 100% accurate. But keep looking at the stock numbers without context if it helps you conceptualize things, regardless of how skewed that perspective is in reality. 250 games is extremely small sample set when you actually understand statistics and all the variables that are involved. We can definitively say that the players and builds that compromise those numbers are struggling against the current. We cannot definitively say the codex itself is trash.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

You sound like someone arguing against mathhammer because we use dice. Your reason are silly, and not valid.

If you look at the armies by wins.http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies You'll see nobody else has as terrible of a record, but keeps trying. Dark angels with twice as many wins as losses with 250 games in tournaments. It's nonsense to think that flavor of the months are why dark angels have a terrible record.

Actually, if you look directly at what is being fielded, who is fielding it, and who they are losing to, everything I just said is 100% accurate. But keep looking at the stock numbers without context if it helps you conceptualize things, regardless of how skewed that perspective is in reality. 250 games is extremely small sample set when you actually understand statistics and all the variables that are involved. We can definitively say that the players and builds that compromise those numbers are struggling against the current. We cannot definitively say the codex itself is trash.

Yeah, actually you can, put it against any other codex released in 6th edition, and give me one that is less viable.

Even if we could definitively prove that it's the least viable 6th edition codex, which the numbers suggest, but do not prove, that certainly doesn't mean its trash. There will always be a least viable. Always. No matter how we rearrange to deck chairs on the Titanic, there will be chairs at the back and chairs at the front.

Again, that isn't definitive proof that the Dex is trash. Do you really think if MVB, Navanti, Fennel, Tony, and a handful of the prominent tournament players set their minds to only playing DA and working around the clock on entirely different builds from that Dex that couldn't increase the numbers substantially? Do you honestly think that? As a general rule, the best minds in the game are focusing on other codexes and other builds. That leaves the hobbiest bringing DA's to the table. It is what it is.

 raiden wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:
Yeah it is depressing..

The thing is that everything that makes DA unique compared to SM is either bad, or is hard-countered by many of the common lists. DA should have great bikes and terminators. They do have good bikes and they have mediocre terminators, in an environment where terminators are already pretty mediocre. They also lack a lot of the strong support elements that regular marines have such as thunderfire cannons, decent chapter tactics, storm ravens, storm talons, sterngaurd, good company master wargear etc. A lot of the flavor units in DA are simply bad. It leads you to take blander units that are then outclassed by other dexes. The things that should make DA stand out are the units that hold them back :/

- VardenV2

this is, IMO, completely wrong. They have the best terminators there are (though the extra points make them meh, but thats preferred enemy built in for ya) they are THE most customizable terms in game, capable of going 4 TH/SS and 1 heavy weapon per 5, or 1-2 TH/SS for tanking and the rest normal w/ a heavy weapon. (also remember vengeful strike, and split fire, for the shooty terms) that being said, this is certainly not the edition of terminators, if they could take 2 heavy weps per squad and were T5 they would be worth there points IMO.

DA have the best terminators, sort of, it's just that they are too expensive for what they do, which is a problem that plagues terminators in general. I think that Deathwing are about as good as terminators come, the problem is that they just aren't that good compared to other things for their points cost in the DA book and other books. Elite armies tend to struggle in this edition no matter what army you play, and Deathwing terminators are about as elite as they come. This is the problem I see with the codex a lot. The rules represent the army fairly well, if not a little bit bland, but all of those things are not really what make the DA powerful :/ Many armies can get far more reliable, survivable, and powerful units fr the same cost as Deathwing etc. They are not as cool, but they are better. It's a trade off I usually just deal with. I ahve some of the best looking terminators at out local GW store and I am proud of them, even i they are pretty meh.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Even if we could definitively prove that it's the least viable 6th edition codex, which the numbers suggest, but do not prove, that certainly doesn't mean its trash. There will always be a least viable. Always. No matter how we rearrange to deck chairs on the Titanic, there will be chairs at the back and chairs at the front.

Again, that isn't definitive proof that the Dex is trash. Do you really think if MVB, Navanti, Fennel, Tony, and a handful of the prominent tournament players set their minds to only playing DA and working around the clock on entirely different builds from that Dex that couldn't increase the numbers substantially? Do you honestly think that? As a general rule, the best minds in the game are focusing on other codexes and other builds. That leaves the hobbiest bringing DA's to the table. It is what it is.

The best minds? Are you being serious or is this a joke post? I'll try to answer seriously even though it seems like a joke when I read it. Are they going to be using their round-the-clock work to try and invent some new flyers, or to take the least possible dark angels to make room for winning allied detachments? Let's say they use no allied detachment, big hint their list will consist of bikes which will always be dwarfed by white scar chapter tactics.

I feel some responsibility to end this after initially derailing the OPs thread.

I never said the codex was trash; I said it was the worst 6th edition book and that with the exception of Orks it was probably worse than all the 5th edition ones too.

All that means is, it's the hardest codex with which to construct a n effective army. As Kirby from 3++ has pointed out, you probably still won't see them fall below 30% wins. So, if they still win a third of the time, it means they're playable, it just also means they're not much fun outside of friendly games.

Sir. if you are daring to suggest the DA is ANYWHERE close to as bad as BA let me stop you there and call your BS. As an avid player of both and lore lover of both. I tell you, in no uncertain way the DA book is better than most 5th excluding the IG.

 raiden wrote:
Sir. if you are daring to suggest the DA is ANYWHERE close to as bad as BA let me stop you there and call your BS. As an avid player of both and lore lover of both. I tell you, in no uncertain way the DA book is better than most 5th excluding the IG.

You want to put a bet on blood angels 6E codex being worse than Dark Angels, because I doubt it will be.

@Raiden, all I can do is post data that has been collected. Accoring to Torrent of Fire and 3++, Blood Angels have the 4th lowest win percentage. Dark Angels have the 2nd lowest. That's it. Empirical fact.

Since that clearly has proved to never be enough with you, I'll state the un-empirical evidence that Blood Angels are better.

Unlike Dark Angels they have access to Storm Ravens for anti-air, and arguably the best Stormraven at that (at least for AA duties)

BA have Sternguard.

BA have effective dreadnoughts when deployed via Drop Pod (perhaps the only codex that does, although I'm fond of Ironclads in moderation)

You can still make an effective alpha strike army with BA. Sternguard and Dreadnoughts in pods with Storm Ravens for clean up and dirt cheap assault marines to leave in reserve in free FAST rhinos to zoom onto objectives late.

Are BA good? No. Are they better than DA? Yes, irrefutably so.

I would like to note, how many BA players are there in these numbers? how many DA?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't make me get martel in here

The best minds? Are you being serious or is this a joke post? I'll try to answer seriously even though it seems like a joke when I read it. Are they going to be using their round-the-clock work to try and invent some new flyers, or to take the least possible dark angels to make room for winning allied detachments? Let's say they use no allied detachment, big hint their list will consist of bikes which will always be dwarfed by white scar chapter tactics.

'

Yes, I'm being completely serious. The rest of your post even further demonstrates how little you understand what potential the DAs could have. Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Feel free to stick your head in the sand all you wish, I will remain cognizant of the books unlocked potential as well as the factors that impede that potential. You basically have a shred of data testing out a very thin strand of the DAs possible builds, played by more "hobbiests" then "competitive players," and are hailing it as definitive data. I'm sorry if you can't find the flaw in this perspective, I've done what I can to get you there.

also, could you link this data you are talking about? so I may check it out?

I commend you for sticking to DA despite the headwinds but I can, in a more measured and less insulting manner, make the case that there is no such thing as unlocked potential that hasn't been tried. You could play 1,000,000 games against top competition, it won't matter. They are enfeebled as a codex, especially when facing the top codices such as Eldar, Tau and Daemons.

Consider the consensus "strongest" DA list, an LRC with PACS inside bearing the Standard of Devastation, with a Libby or Techmarine on a bike protecting the raider with a 4++; surrounded by several squads of bikes. That is the core. The extra scoring and fire support units available to you are so bad that they're no worth mentioning.

The codex has terrible fliers and non-flier AA options - and without allies, can't remedy this.

The codex has 1 great quality: volume of fire at low S, high AP. However, because of a lack of Sternguard, devastator centurions or grav bikes, lacks points-efficient AP2; especially at high strength for taking out AV12 and above vehicles.

Those opening statements being said, how are you going to fight the top list, Jetseer? You have virtually no psychic defense. You have a ML2 hood. Unless you ally Space Wolves, you have no options to counter their psychic powers. Their re-rollable 2+/4++ will ignore your volume of fire advantage. They typically have multiple Wraithknights in support, which will make quick work of your land raider, if not with S10 AP2 Distort ranged weapons, then in close combat.

I could make similar arguments about the lists deficiencies against Screamerstar, Flying Circus, Ovesa'star, Grav Bike Spam.

The premiere DA list is even at a disadvantage against mid-tier lists like GK shunt or Necron Air.

The codex is hobbled. I'm sure you're an excellent player, and as such, you can play as hard as you want, and dream all you want about list combinations. Your choices are inferior from DA than almost any other codex.