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To start off, here are the pertinent sections of the given rules required for interpretation.

Game turn vs Player turn, pg9

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

Overwatch, pg 21

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. ..."

Interceptor, pg 38

"At the end of the enemy movement phase, a weapon with the interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one."



So as it's read, if a model fires a weapon using interceptor during the enemy movement phase, it cannot fire that weapon during the next *player* turn. Then the assault phase rolls around and the interceptor unit finds itself getting charged. It wishes to fire overwatch, so per normal shooting rules, follows the sequence of shooting.

This is the important part. Pg 12, the shooting sequence is outlined in the grey box in the bottom left corner.

First bullet point says this: "1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, BUT HAS NOT YET, fire this turn."


And as mentioned before regarding player turn vs game turn, that situation refers to player turn.


So, if a model wishes to fire overwatch at a charging enemy, but has shot previously this *player* turn due to Interceptor, it cannot fire overwatch because that goes against the normal rules for shooting, which overwatch much follow.



I'm sorry tau players.

 Caboose wrote:
To start off, here are the pertinent sections of the given rules required for interpretation.

Game turn vs Player turn, pg9

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

Overwatch, pg 21

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. ..."

Interceptor, pg 38

"At the end of the enemy movement phase, a weapon with the interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one."



So as it's read, if a model fires a weapon using interceptor during the enemy movement phase, it cannot fire that weapon during the next *player* turn. Then the assault phase rolls around and the interceptor unit finds itself getting charged. It wishes to fire overwatch, so per normal shooting rules, follows the sequence of shooting.

This is the important part. Pg 21, the shooting sequence is outlined in the grey box in the bottom left corner.

First bullet point says this: "1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, BUT HAS NOT YET, fire this turn."


And as mentioned before regarding player turn vs game turn, that situation refers to player turn.


So, if a model wishes to fire overwatch at a charging enemy, but has shot previously this *player* turn due to Interceptor, it cannot fire overwatch because that go against the normal rules for shooting, which overwatch much follow.



I'm sorry tau players.

Cute, but wrong.

Movement Phase - Interceptor
Shooting Phase - Can do nothing, as it is not your player turn
Assault Phase - Overwatch

that comprises a "turn".

You are forgetting the rule of overwatch which dictates the phase in where it happens. Note that the overwatch rules says "resolve". It specifically dictates which unit you have to target (the unit assaulting) you, so it skips step 1, and moves right to step 2. As this all happens in the same turn, it's perfectly legal to shoot overwatch the turn you intercept.

RAW, however would not let you shoot overwatch the turn *after* you intercept, because of the restriction on firing due to interceptor

It's the fact that it is the same turn that means you can't...

 djdarknoise wrote:
But it's the same turn.

Movement Phase - Interceptor
Shooting Phase - Can do nothing, as it is not your player turn
Assault Phase - Overwatch

You are forgetting the rule of overwatch which dictates the phase in where it happens. Note that the overwatch rules says "resolve". It specifically dictates which unit you have to target (the unit assaulting) you, so it skips step 1, and moves right to step 2. As this all happens in the same turn, it's perfectly legal to shoot overwatch the turn you intercept.

RAW, however would not let you shoot overwatch the turn *after* you intercept, because of the restriction on firing due to interceptor

No. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack, taken in the enemy assault phase. Rules for a shooting attack follow the shooting sequence, which clearly states that you may only select a unit to shoot for a shooting attack if it has not already shot this *player* turn. Each player turn comprises of 3 phases, yes. The movement, shooting, and assault phases. Unfortunately it doesnt matter which 'phase' said shooting action occurs in. What matters is the player turn as a whole. If you shoot with interceptor in the movement phase, and then shoot in the assault phase using overwatch, you are still shooting in the same *player* turn, which is clearly not allowed according to the shooting sequence.

And resolve only enforces the point further. And you cant skip step one because step two is predetermined. How do you resolve an overwatch shooting attack? Step 1: pick a unit to shoot at the assaulter. Has that unit shot this *player* turn? Yes, if fired interceptor. Ok, overwatch resolved...

The only restriction on "turn" is for nominating a unit. Overwatch skips this step - or rather changes the requirements to "the unit being assaulted".

rigeld2 wrote:
The only restriction on "turn" is for nominating a unit. Overwatch skips this step - or rather changes the requirements to "the unit being assaulted".

Nominating the unit doing the shooting yes. Target nomination is predetermined, but that doesnt entitle you to skip the previous steps... Just because a weapon ignores armor saves doesnt entitle you to skip the process to get there... You dont auto hit and wound because it ignores armor saves... Not good logic there.

Target nomination isn't even predetermined. If you're being assaulted by three units you can still choose who to overwatch.

If the first unit gets to you though, you miss the boat on overwatching though.

 Caboose wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The only restriction on "turn" is for nominating a unit. Overwatch skips this step - or rather changes the requirements to "the unit being assaulted".

Nominating the unit doing the shooting yes. Target nomination is predetermined, but that doesnt entitle you to skip the previous steps... Just because a weapon ignores armor saves doesnt entitle you to skip the process to get there... You dont auto hit and wound because it ignores armor saves... Not good logic there.

Target nomination and which unit is firing are predetermined.

Or am I allowed to Overwatch with a unit that is not being charged?

With Tau you are...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I guess none of the shooting sequence is predetermined. Moot point about skipping steps then.

 Caboose wrote:
With Tau you are...

Maybe you should re-read the rule involved. They're allowed to shoot Overwatch as if they were the unit being charged, correct?

So, I guess none of the shooting sequence is predetermined. Moot point about skipping steps then.

Sure, if you ignore rules maybe.

 Caboose wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The only restriction on "turn" is for nominating a unit. Overwatch skips this step - or rather changes the requirements to "the unit being assaulted".

Nominating the unit doing the shooting yes. Target nomination is predetermined, but that doesnt entitle you to skip the previous steps... Just because a weapon ignores armor saves doesnt entitle you to skip the process to get there... You dont auto hit and wound because it ignores armor saves... Not good logic there.

You are trying to make a technical argument out of a bullet point box. If you actually look at the section "Nomintate Unit to Shoot" (which, by the way, is the same verbage as the bullet point you are trying to use), the actual rules for nominating says "Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs." (pg 12)

As the rules for overwatch explain thoroughly when you are allowed, and who is allowed to shoot, it overrules the summed up/bullet point. Specific rules on page 12 trump truncated bullet box.

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...if you start from there then you realize...did I shoot this turn? Yes, the unit I am nominating/that has been nominated...can't shoot.

This affects the unit's ability to shoot...overwatch.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Caboose wrote:
With Tau you are...

Maybe you should re-read the rule involved. They're allowed to shoot Overwatch as if they were the unit being charged, correct?

So, I guess none of the shooting sequence is predetermined. Moot point about skipping steps then.

Sure, if you ignore rules maybe.

1. I just reread the rule. it states that all may fire overwatch as if they were also targets of the assault. Moot point, follows rules for overwatch and other shooting restrictions. Falls in line with my previous arguments.

2. No, in fact I'm trying to incorporate all rules, INCLUDING BULLET POINTS. Which are in fact, rules.

 djdarknoise wrote:
You are trying to make a technical argument out of a bullet point box. If you actually look at the section "Nomintate Unit to Shoot" (which, by the way, is the same verbage as the bullet point you are trying to use), the actual rules for nominating says "Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs." (pg 12)

As the rules for overwatch explain thoroughly when you are allowed, and who is allowed to shoot, it overrules the summed up/bullet point. Specific rules on page 12 trump truncated bullet
box.

There is no trumping different aspects of the same rule. Bullet points are rules too. Overwatch "trumps" nothing. It follows the rules for shooting. You don't ignore any aspects of the rules because you dont like them. Nothing in the shooting rules contradict. You don't omit an aspect of the rules because you THINK something "trumps" it. It doesnt state that you ignore the normal process of shooting and just blast away, so you dont.

 ductvader wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...if you start from there then you realize...did I shoot this turn? Yes, the unit I am nominating/that has been nominated...can't shoot.

This affects the unit's ability to shoot...overwatch.

You're missing the point. Only in the truncated bullet box does it say "but has not yet". This is a summary and a paraphrase of the actual rules, listed opposite on page 12. As the rules listed opposite (and not in the paraphrase box) specifically state that other rules trump and override unit's ability to shoot. Ovewatch is one of those rules. You are picking the paraphrased summary of the sequence because it fits your mindset.

And yes, one rule trumps another. Lets see;

Bullet Point 2, the last line "Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot." Yet, the full rules say "if no models have line of sight, then a different target must be chosen" and "if no weapons are in range, a different target must be chosen". So which is it? Can a unit not fire at all? Can they choose a different target? It clearly can't be both.

 Caboose wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Caboose wrote:
With Tau you are...

Maybe you should re-read the rule involved. They're allowed to shoot Overwatch as if they were the unit being charged, correct?

So, I guess none of the shooting sequence is predetermined. Moot point about skipping steps then.

Sure, if you ignore rules maybe.

1. I just reread the rule. it states that all may fire overwatch as if they were also targets of the assault. Moot point, follows rules for overwatch and other shooting restrictions. Falls in line with my previous arguments.

2. No, in fact I'm trying to incorporate all rules, INCLUDING BULLET POINTS. Which are in fact, rules.

So we agree we skip nominating a unit - Overwatch rules determine that.
We agree we skip determining the target - Overwatch rules determine that.
Where is there a restriction now? Your previous arguments only cited a restriction when nominating a unit. We skip that step.

How do you shoot at all if you have not chosen a unit to shoot with?

 ductvader wrote:
How do you shoot at all if you have not chosen a unit to shoot with?

p21 wrote:As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.

Because the Overwatch rules dictate what unit can fire. We don't elect units, we make the choice to fire or not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How do you shoot at all if you have not chosen a unit to shoot with?

p21 wrote:As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.

Because the Overwatch rules dictate what unit can fire. We don't elect units, we make the choice to fire or not.

So the overwatch rule nominates the unit by default.

Overwatch follows the same rules for shooting.

Then, the overwatch rule can only come into effect/nominate a unit for a unit that has not yet fired.

djdarknoise wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...if you start from there then you realize...did I shoot this turn? Yes, the unit I am nominating/that has been nominated...can't shoot.

This affects the unit's ability to shoot...overwatch.

You're missing the point. Only in the truncated bullet box does it say "but has not yet". This is a summary and a paraphrase of the actual rules, listed opposite on page 12. As the rules listed opposite (and not in the paraphrase box) specifically state that other rules trump and override unit's ability to shoot. Ovewatch is one of those rules. You are picking the paraphrased summary of the sequence because it fits your mindset.

And yes, one rule trumps another. Lets see;

Bullet Point 2, the last line "Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot." Yet, the full rules say "if no models have line of sight, then a different target must be chosen" and "if no weapons are in range, a different target must be chosen". So which is it? Can a unit not fire at all? Can they choose a different target? It clearly can't be both.

You are correct, there are precedents for some rules overruling others. BUT I dont see anywhere that Overwatch does. I see the opposite. It states that it follows the normal rules for shooting. Also, whats wrong with citing a bullet point? They are rules too. What are you, a bullet-pointist? Dont be prejudiced against them because you dont like them... Thats rude and ignorant. They are a shorter version of the rule that you can read so you dont have to spend the time reading 4 paragraphs.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Caboose wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Caboose wrote:
With Tau you are...

Maybe you should re-read the rule involved. They're allowed to shoot Overwatch as if they were the unit being charged, correct?

So, I guess none of the shooting sequence is predetermined. Moot point about skipping steps then.

Sure, if you ignore rules maybe.

1. I just reread the rule. it states that all may fire overwatch as if they were also targets of the assault. Moot point, follows rules for overwatch and other shooting restrictions. Falls in line with my previous arguments.

2. No, in fact I'm trying to incorporate all rules, INCLUDING BULLET POINTS. Which are in fact, rules.

So we agree we skip nominating a unit - Overwatch rules determine that.
We agree we skip determining the target - Overwatch rules determine that.
Where is there a restriction now? Your previous arguments only cited a restriction when nominating a unit. We skip that step.

No, there is no agreement, You dont get to skip steps because part of it determined. Like I said, you dont skip the rest of process because your weapon ignores armor saves, why would you skip the rest of the shooting sequence because half of step one and step 2 are covered? Bullets are a summary of the rules. You read a bullet point because you dont want to read a whole paragraph. Youre chosing to ignore and bypass it because you dont like what it tells you to do. Thats not how the game is played. Weak argument.

 ductvader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How do you shoot at all if you have not chosen a unit to shoot with?

p21 wrote:As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.

Because the Overwatch rules dictate what unit can fire. We don't elect units, we make the choice to fire or not.

So the overwatch rule nominates the unit by default.

Overwatch follows the same rules for shooting.

Then, the overwatch rule can only come into effect/nominate a unit for a unit that has not yet fired.

Interesting - can you cite - in the overwatch rules - where that restriction is? I don't see it.
The overwatch rules don't just "nominate the unit by default" - they skip the nomination entirely. A unit has been nominated, a target has been set, move on. You're attempting to apply restrictions on things that aren't even involved in the process.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How do you shoot at all if you have not chosen a unit to shoot with?

p21 wrote:As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.

Because the Overwatch rules dictate what unit can fire. We don't elect units, we make the choice to fire or not.

So the overwatch rule nominates the unit by default.

Overwatch follows the same rules for shooting.

Then, the overwatch rule can only come into effect/nominate a unit for a unit that has not yet fired.

Interesting - can you cite - in the overwatch rules - where that restriction is? I don't see it.
The overwatch rules don't just "nominate the unit by default" - they skip the nomination entirely. A unit has been nominated, a target has been set, move on. You're attempting to apply restrictions on things that aren't even involved in the process.

Sure "overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

See normal shooting attack for the restriction.

Heres how it goes. Unit gets assaulted. It wishes to fire overwatch at attacker. Begin shooting sequence.

Select unit to fire that has not already fired.

Cannot....

End of overwatch.


I dont see how this is hard.

 Caboose wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Caboose wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Caboose wrote:
With Tau you are...

Maybe you should re-read the rule involved. They're allowed to shoot Overwatch as if they were the unit being charged, correct?

So, I guess none of the shooting sequence is predetermined. Moot point about skipping steps then.

Sure, if you ignore rules maybe.

1. I just reread the rule. it states that all may fire overwatch as if they were also targets of the assault. Moot point, follows rules for overwatch and other shooting restrictions. Falls in line with my previous arguments.

2. No, in fact I'm trying to incorporate all rules, INCLUDING BULLET POINTS. Which are in fact, rules.

So we agree we skip nominating a unit - Overwatch rules determine that.
We agree we skip determining the target - Overwatch rules determine that.
Where is there a restriction now? Your previous arguments only cited a restriction when nominating a unit. We skip that step.

No, there is no agreement, You dont get to skip steps because part of it determined. Like I said, you dont skip the rest of process because your weapon ignores armor saves, why would you skip the rest of the shooting sequence because half of step one and step 2 are covered? Bullets are a summary of the rules. You read a bullet point because you dont want to read a whole paragraph. Youre chosing to ignore and bypass it because you dont like what it tells you to do. Thats not how the game is played. Weak argument.

I'm not ignoring anything actually.

So please cite - in the overwatch rules, because that's how we're nominating a unit - where there is a restriction. Please cite - in the overwatch rules - where you get to pick a target (since we can't skip that step).

Steps 1 and 2 are satisfied in the Overwatch rules. According to you I do not have the option of firing. The Overwatch rules give me the option. Please cite the denial and remember that Overwatch is more specific than the shooting phase rules.

I think you're misunderstanding.

Shooting is not an extension of overwatch rules.

Overwatch is an extension of shooting rules.

Overwatch is only allowed to happen while keeping in line with all of the rules of a normal shooting attack.

 ductvader wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding.

Shooting is not an extension of overwatch rules.

Overwatch is an extension of shooting rules.

Really? That's an interesting assertion. What page of the shooting rules does Overwatch appear on?

Overwatch is only allowed to happen while keeping in line with all of the rules of a normal shooting attack.

Oh - so Overwatch can cause Morale or Pinning tests?

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding.

Shooting is not an extension of overwatch rules.

Overwatch is an extension of shooting rules.

Really? That's an interesting assertion. What page of the shooting rules does Overwatch appear on?

Overwatch is only allowed to happen while keeping in line with all of the rules of a normal shooting attack.

Oh - so Overwatch can cause Morale or Pinning tests?

Where in overwatch are you allowed to roll dice?

Odd way to look at it. However firing interceptor and over watch don't conflict since it's being done in the same player turn and interceptor says next turn.

Lungpickle wrote:
Odd way to look at it. However firing interceptor and over watch don't conflict since it's being done in the same player turn and interceptor says next turn.

That's not really the semantic question in play here.

 ductvader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding.

Shooting is not an extension of overwatch rules.

Overwatch is an extension of shooting rules.

Really? That's an interesting assertion. What page of the shooting rules does Overwatch appear on?

Overwatch is only allowed to happen while keeping in line with all of the rules of a normal shooting attack.

Oh - so Overwatch can cause Morale or Pinning tests?

Where in overwatch are you allowed to roll dice?

After the unit has been nominated and target decided you follow the rules for a shooting attack. So either Overwatch cannot ever work (your position) or you can Intercept and Overwatch (what the rules say).

Lungpickle wrote:
Odd way to look at it. However firing interceptor and over watch don't conflict since it's being done in the same player turn and interceptor says next turn.

That is the question stated in the origional post...