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We have a newcomer to our circle of gamers who's building a CSM army. He's using a "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolored Dreamcoat" paintjob that is quite effective at blunting his opponent's ability to differentiate unit types, especially against newer players unfamiliar with the CSM codex.

None of us wants to offend the guy, because players are scarce in my area, and the dude is generally personable. Would you say anything or just live with it and let it go?

I don't understand how a paint job could confuse people.

Pics, perhaps?

Well, new players have difficulty telling units apart anyway, but simplyt ask before he moves any unit "which unit is that again?" Before you do anything, ask for a rundown of what unit is what.

Yeah, it's not like you can't ask him what units are what.

Unless I see pics of this and how it actually works, I think this might be an issue of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Damned Emperors Children hey...

 curran12 wrote:
Yeah, it's not like you can't ask him what units are what.

Unless I see pics of this and how it actually works, I think this might be an issue of making a mountain out of a molehill.

The problem isn't the inability of players to ask, its that the models look so alike, people forget, and we hear stuff like "Oh crap, I didn't mean to shoot at THAT unit?"

I don't have pictures, but if you imagine an army of uniform unpainted grey models, now superimpose "psychedelic" for grey, that's the idea. So each indivudual model's guns, skin, armor, etc are all the same swirl of colors, and all the models in the unit are the same swirl of colors. I'm not trying to present this as a huge problem or anything, just it has led to some upset people who thought they were shooting at a different target.

If he's playing Slaanesh he's doing it right from the sound of things.

Sounds more like forgetfulness on the part of his adversaries, which ya know... pretty sure Sun Tsu would have something to say about that.

jasper76 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Yeah, it's not like you can't ask him what units are what.

Unless I see pics of this and how it actually works, I think this might be an issue of making a mountain out of a molehill.

The problem isn't the inability of players to ask, its that the models look so alike, people forget, and we hear stuff like "Oh crap, I didn't mean to shoot at THAT unit?"

I don't have pictures, but if you imagine an army of uniform unpainted grey models, now superimpose "psychedelic" for grey, that's the idea. So each indivudual model's guns, skin, armor, etc are all the same swirl of colors, and all the models in the unit are the same swirl of colors. I'm not trying to present this as a huge problem or anything, just it has led to some upset people who thought they were shooting at a different target.

How is this any different than an Ultramarines player whose Tactical Marines and Devastator Marines are the same shade of blue?

"No! I didn't mean to shoot those Combat Squaded Devasators! They're not a scoring unit! feth this game!"

darkcloak wrote:
Sounds more like forgetfulness on the part of his adversaries, which ya know... pretty sure Sun Tsu would have something to say about that.

Well that's exactly what it is! But whenever beginner players are getting into the game, we try and pamper them so they'll stick around.

Upon thinking a bit on this, maybe next time I'll just coach one of the newer players (if they want) and remind him who's who, not to forget to keep asking, etc. Maybe the CSM guy will get sick of answering and start painting his models a bit less muddled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wilytank wrote:
How is this any different than an Ultramarines player whose Tactical Marines and Devastator Marines are the same shade of blue?

"No! I didn't mean to shoot those Combat Squaded Devasators! They're not a scoring unit! feth this game!"

Maybe this was an ill-advised topic to post without pics. The whole army looks like he lined them up, took 4 or 5 buckets of color, splashed them over his units randomly, and that was that.

I still don't get it.

How is this different from any uniformly painted or unpainted army ever? Not to sound condescending or anything, I just honestly don't get it. Is it because they're bright colours? If so, it seems like a really, really, weird thing to be upset/confused about.

Are they not using the right weapons?

 Blacksails wrote:
I still don't get it.

How is this different from any uniformly painted or unpainted army ever? Not to sound condescending or anything, I just honestly don't get it. Is it because they're bright colours? If so, it seems like a really, really, weird thing to be upset/confused about.

Not too much different from an unpainted army. Our group never allows unpainted or unshaded monochrome armies on the board. It doesn't bother me, but a couple of the newcomers have voiced minor complaints about it.

 Wilytank wrote:

jasper76 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Yeah, it's not like you can't ask him what units are what.

Unless I see pics of this and how it actually works, I think this might be an issue of making a mountain out of a molehill.

The problem isn't the inability of players to ask, its that the models look so alike, people forget, and we hear stuff like "Oh crap, I didn't mean to shoot at THAT unit?"

I don't have pictures, but if you imagine an army of uniform unpainted grey models, now superimpose "psychedelic" for grey, that's the idea. So each indivudual model's guns, skin, armor, etc are all the same swirl of colors, and all the models in the unit are the same swirl of colors. I'm not trying to present this as a huge problem or anything, just it has led to some upset people who thought they were shooting at a different target.

How is this any different than an Ultramarines player whose Tactical Marines and Devastator Marines are the same shade of blue?

"No! I didn't mean to shoot those Combat Squaded Devasators! They're not a scoring unit! feth this game!"

With CSM you have several different unit types which are more or less a similar visual aesthetic(power armored with a bolter and trimmings) where you primarily rely upon a different paint scheme or the difference between the models existing for the "specialist" unit and the standard Chaos Marine(Plague Marines and Thousand Sons immediately spring to mind).

If you get rid of those visual cues and have an army mainly consisting of your standard Chaos Marines with a smattering of Plague Marines and Thousand Sons, it could cause some issues.

 kronk wrote:
Are they not using the right weapons?

So far as I can tell, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

With CSM you have several different unit types which are more or less a similar visual aesthetic(power armored with a bolter and trimmings) where you primarily rely upon a different paint scheme or the difference between the models existing for the "specialist" unit and the standard Chaos Marine(Plague Marines and Thousand Sons immediately spring to mind).

If you get rid of those visual cues and have an army mainly consisting of your standard Chaos Marines with a smattering of Plague Marines and Thousand Sons, it could cause some issues.

Yes, this. Sorry I had difficulty expressing it.

jasper76 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I still don't get it.

How is this different from any uniformly painted or unpainted army ever? Not to sound condescending or anything, I just honestly don't get it. Is it because they're bright colours? If so, it seems like a really, really, weird thing to be upset/confused about.

Not too much different from an unpainted army. Our group never allows unpainted or unshaded monochrome armies on the board. It doesn't bother me, but a couple of the newcomers have voiced minor complaints about it.

I still don't see the problem then. Its painted...and you're confused?

jasper76 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Are they not using the right weapons?

So far as I can tell, yes.

Then again, I fail to see what the problem is here.

I guess pics would help, but unless we're talking about him painting all his models in a perfect WWII dazzle camouflage paint scheme to confuse you when drawing LoS, I just can't see how paint could affect a player's ability to play the game.

The issue apparently is that the CSM player is using various cult/marked units like Plague Marines and Thousand Sons alongside of generic Marines with bolters and fittings, with all the units painted the same.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The issue apparently is that the CSM player is using various cult/marked units like Plague Marines and Thousand Sons alongside of generic Marines with bolters and fittings, with all the units painted the same.

Oooooooohhhhhhhh!

Okay, that makes a little more sense. Pics would still help, as I'm hoping they have other marks of distinction or different wargear.

*Edit* I just saw your post above mine clarifying the matter.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The issue apparently is that the CSM player is using various cult/marked units like Plague Marines and Thousand Sons alongside of generic Marines with bolters and fittings, with all the units painted the same.

I see. Yeah, your plague marines should look different from your Khorne Chosen and from your unmarked Havocs.

Units need some way to differentiate. Even my humble IG have the hollows of the eppelautes painted in platoon and squad colors.

As long as he has some way to distinguish them, he's playing by the rules. the real problem comes when he has a squad of identical CSMs in front of indentical plague marines, and takes casualties from the wrong unit.

Perhaps he could add cult badges, or a strong splash of color to mark certain units?

Ask him how he tells them apart. If he can't, that's a problem.

Still, if you see a unit, ask him what it is. Declare your intent before you shoot. "I'm shooting your plage marines" makes it clear what you are doing.

I'm sorry, still not seeing the problem. There is no requirement that Cult troops be painted differently from the rest of your army, just as there is no requirement for Eldar aspect warriors to be painted differently, etc. All 4 cult troops have unique models, if you can't tell a Thousand Sons marine from a Plague Marine from a Khorne Berzerker from a Noise Marine, then your problem isn't his paint scheme, its your inability to differentiate the models physical characteristics.

 Polonius wrote:

Ask him how he tells them apart. If he can't, that's a problem.

I'll start here. If he can't tell them apart himself, be pretty hard to argue that he shouldn't touch em up somehow.

It's unclear if the player in question is using distint models for his plague marines.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm sorry, still not seeing the problem. There is no requirement that Cult troops be painted differently from the rest of your army, just as there is no requirement for Eldar aspect warriors to be painted differently, etc. All 4 cult troops have unique models, if you can't tell a Thousand Sons marine from a Plague Marine from a Khorne Berzerker from a Noise Marine, then your problem isn't his paint scheme, its your inability to differentiate the models physical characteristics.

It sounds like he isn't using the unique models. Just basic Chaos models with the same color and no means to differentiate.

Thats not an issue of paint scheme, thats an issue of WYSIWYG, whole different animal with a whole different solution.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats not an issue of paint scheme, thats an issue of WYSIWYG, whole different animal with a whole different solution.

right, and one that generally is ignored if the "plague marines" are painted clearly as PMs.

Lots of people use the PM models, and lots just paint CSMs rust and green.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats not an issue of paint scheme, thats an issue of WYSIWYG, whole different animal with a whole different solution.

Mallet of justice? Please?

Stealing an idea from another thread currently on the front page: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412461.page

Make cards for each unit (a scrap of paper with a unit type scrawled on it should suffice) and place them next to the unit on the battle field?

Why not have him paint the rim around his bases a different colour for different units? Red can be for zerkers, green for plague marines etc.

Also I love the idea of a Old Testament story Chaos themed army with a pinch of warp dust added in

Lots of good ideas! Thanks, I'm sure we can get this sorted out with no hurt feelings.