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Am I the only one that thinks doubling up the FOC chart at 2000pts is too soon?? I play orks and I am able to build a 2000pt army without 6 heavies( just an example). Now with the new expansions such as escalation, and things like allies, really does any one have trouble building a 2000pt army with out the double chart? Now I am not saying get rid of the double chart just bump it up a ways more like at 3000pts you double the chart, maybe 2500 but what ever.

I don't want to start an argument I know the rules aren't going to change because of this thread. This is just something I have been thinking about pretty much since 6th dropped and was curious if I am alone on this train of thought or not.

It lets chaos bring 4 FMC at 2k points. and nids are worse in that area lol.

With Supplements and codex being able to essentially ally with themselves, I don't think the double FOC is that bad. It's not really giving anything they really couldn't bring on their own anyways.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
With Supplements and codex being able to essentially ally with themselves, I don't think the double FOC is that bad. It's not really giving anything they really couldn't bring on their own anyways.

not entirely because with a double FOC I can take 4HQs+2 ally HQs, 6ellites+2 ally elites, ext. it is true with allying with one self you can take more of the same before doubling. A Crazy example after doubling the FOC some one could bring 8 heldrakes,( or add in what ever model scares you the most). now honestly that would be ALL you had but you have that ability.

This might help you.

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3146

I have found double force org to actually be quite a bit of fun - but like almost any other change in 40k people crap all over it before even trying it.

If you find the 2000pt limit too low, than speak to your opponent. I do enjoy using a single FOC on 2000pts or more occasionally as I get an opportunity to bring models I might not normally.

Unlike Escalation, this is automatically balanced. Both sides get access to exactly the same thing.

Personally, I think it's fun and liberating. While certainly not impossible, 2000pt+ lists tend to feel a little cramped, especially with Tyranids.

EDIT:

 raiden wrote:
It lets chaos bring 4 FMC at 2k points. and nids are worse in that area lol.

For 780pts minimum, yeah.

Double FOCs at 2k points is just right for Chaos armies. I play 2000 and 2500 point games almost exclusively and find it's really important when you consider so many great units are locked up in the fast attack slot. If I want Heldrakes, I don't want to have to sacrifice bikers / spawn. 2k points is the level at which these things start to become affordable.

 techsoldaten wrote:
If I want Heldrakes, I don't want to have to sacrifice bikers / spawn.

This is exactly the type of thing that leads me to agree with the OP.

People want to have their cake and eat it too, there's a reason for limiting slots. Now that GW have conjured up a whole swathe of new slots I don't really think 2xFOC is even necessary at all for most armies (I'm sure someone will come back @ me with a purely hypothetical army which never actually sees a table, just to prove 2xFOC is vital to 40k)

I'd love a system where you'd need a troop choice for every FA/HS/ELITE option you took. 2x 10 cultists being bossed around by a DP with his Luftwaffe of Heldrakes will always look stupid.

I think that 2 FOCs at 2K points is just right.

MarsNZ wrote:
This is exactly the type of thing that leads me to agree with the OP.

People want to have their cake and eat it too, there's a reason for limiting slots.

Yeah, that's hard for me to say.

I don't really buy into the idea that the FOC is there to preserve balance, and really just appreciate being able to take 4 small units of bikers, a heldrake and some spawn to guard my CL. I don't see this as asking for the world, so much as paying my points and playing a fun army.

The mechanics of the game come into play at some point. The guy who takes 2 squads of 10 cultists and that's all his troops is just asking for it. You need troops to score, and double FOCs don't change that.

Actually, tabling an opponent with spam lists means scoring is meaningless.

Sorry to pick on your post, it wasn't personal. It's just you basically wrote word for word why I don't like 2xFOC. Essentially "I want more than one drake, but I don't want to make the tough choices in my FA slot, so I'll just double my slots."

 cvtuttle wrote:
This might help you.

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3146

I have found double force org to actually be quite a bit of fun - but like almost any other change in 40k people crap all over it before even trying it.

I highly recommend listening to this.

WAAC/TFG players will always exist, and will abuse everything. That doesn't mean that double Force Org is a bad thing. Besides, taking more Heldrakes or whatever is just further min/maxing their army - Heldrakes die very easily to any kind of decent anti-air or worse, other flyers. If you can deal with x number of Heldrakes with a regular Force Org, you can deal with 2x with a double Force Org. 6 Heldrakes cost just over 1000pts. That's an awful lot of army to lose to one Stormraven or a single squadron of Vendettas, and a lot of army to dedicate to anti-infantry or anti-transport.

Also, "but I don't want to make the tough choices in my FA slot, so I'll just double my slots." is pretty much the point. You're still paying the points - 6 Heldrakes, as I said, would be over half your army at 2000pts - but, because of your large army, you have freedom. Or not, if you don't want to. Tech's example wasn't even bad - if he hadn't said the word "Heldrake", your reply probably would have changed. Note that, although tech said "a Heldrake", you change his meaning to "I want more than one drake", and say it's a spam list.

Many armies (like Tyranids) fall under "Elites are golden", while having a few good Elite units (Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Doom, sometimes Ymgarls) and a bunch of crap ones that nobody will ever take because, regardless of points, they take up a crucial FOC slot. Maybe I'd like to take a Lictor or Pyrovore for fun, and not 1080pts of Zoanthropes.

18 Vendettas, though...

All I'm going to say is that the second force org chart at 2k points is optional - if you want to play a 2k point army with 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attack and 3 Heavy Support, you can. You don't need to have 2 HQ and 4 Troops just to play a 2k game.

I think the opponents of it are thinking about what enemy players could potentially do, rather than what they could do. That's partly why I recommend listening to the above podcast; they go over this exact topic!