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He has awesome stats, but I look at him this way.... As a daemon player you never take him in a primary detachment because then you don't get Fateweaver's warlord trait. So therefore the cheapest way to have him in your army is to take an allied detachment of CSM with just him and the cultists. What does this mean? You're paying 400 points to have him in your army... I'm wondering if people think it's worth it?

He is good, telepathy means guaranteed invis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, puppet master is super duper useful now with all those titans.

His stats are great, don't get me wrong. He just seems so pricey. Although I will say casting puppet master on a sky ray seems comically awesome!

He is worth it. He is a great force-multiplier and that is how you want to play him. The best way to play him is to ally him into a daemon army as a CSM ally. The unit of cultists isn't so bad. Usually, FMC daemons are starved for scoring units anyways. Cultists bring in more scoring to balance out the list and they're really cheap to boot!

The only time I would use him as the primary in a Daemon army is if I want to ally in the Black Mace DP. Otherwise, you want to keep Fateweaver as Warlord if possible.

 Makutsu wrote:
He is good, telepathy means guaranteed invis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, puppet master is super duper useful now with all those titans.

Yes with ALL those Titans around....

Just because one book was released, doesn't mean every man and his dog can suddenly afford a super heavy.


And to the OP, if you are sticking with pure Daemons, then you need to weigh up how much you rely on Fate Weaver as your Warlord? Probably quite a bit, right?

However he is worth the allies tax, plus as Jy2 put, the extra scoring unit is always nice, especially a cheap, ignorable one like Cultists.

And if you are that way inclined, you can tag a Heldrake along with him.

Definitely a good choice, and the so call cultist tax is really not a bad thing when you consider it is 50 points for a scoring unit.
Although he seems expensive, when compared to a normal fully kitted out DP the price is basically the same. However unlike normal DPs he does bring some new things to the table:

Guaranteed psychic abilities are something that lists can be built around.

Eternal warrior without investing into biomancy is a welcome return for daemon lists

Fleshbane ap2 attacks are great for dealing with enemy MCs, especially when linked with EW and a 4++ save.

For a 2k flying circus list I'm planning on this:

HQ
Fateweaver
Slaanesh DP - 2 Greater, 1 lesser, Wings, Armour, ML3

Troops
11x Pink Horrors
11x Pink Horrors

Heavy Support
Tzeentch DP - Grimoire, 1 greater, wings, armour, ML3
Tzeentch DP - Portalglyph, 1 greater, wings, armour, ML3

Allies
Hq
Be'lakor

Troops
10x Cultists
10x Cultists

1998 Points

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Definitely a good choice, and the so call cultist tax is really not a bad thing when you consider it is 50 points for a scoring unit.
Although he seems expensive, when compared to a normal fully kitted out DP the price is basically the same. However unlike normal DPs he does bring some new things to the table:

Guaranteed psychic abilities are something that lists can be built around.

Eternal warrior without investing into biomancy is a welcome return for daemon lists

Fleshbane ap2 attacks are great for dealing with enemy MCs, especially when linked with EW and a 4++ save.

For a 2k flying circus list I'm planning on this:

HQ
Fateweaver
Slaanesh DP - 2 Greater, 1 lesser, Wings, Armour, ML3

Troops
11x Pink Horrors
11x Pink Horrors

Heavy Support
Tzeentch DP - Grimoire, 1 greater, wings, armour, ML3
Tzeentch DP - Portalglyph, 1 greater, wings, armour, ML3

Allies
Hq
Be'lakor

Troops
10x Cultists
10x Cultists

1998 Points

Good points Big Blind BIll! This is what I'm planning for 1850, let me know whatcha think!

1850 Daemons w/ CSM allies.

HQ:

Fateweaver
Keeper of Secrets, greater, greater

Troops:

10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
10 Pink Horrors

Heavy Support:
Daemon Prince, Slaanesh, wings, armor, Lash, Grimoire of True Names, Mastery Level 3
Daemon Prince, Slaanesh, wings, armor, Lash, Portalglyph, Mastery Level 3

Allied Detachment: CSM

HQ:
Be'Lakor


Troops:
10 Cultists


Give me a shoutout and tell me whatcha think!

Yeah the list looks Good.
All the big daemons are fine imo.

The slaanesh and tzeentch daemons are largely interchangable. Slaanesh have the obvious advantage of the lash, and also more reliable charge distances. Tzeentch have more reliable psychic powers and are more durable due to re roll 1's, they can still get a ranged attack through flickering fire.

Personally I like Slaanesh DPs, but I dont like the KoS tax, so I tend to just take the one. I know the KoS is actually pretty decent, I just hate having all my big daemons flying except one.

As for the troops, it is mostly down to preference. Horrors are most popular, followed by plague bearers. Some people use daemonettes.....and no one uses bloodletters competitively. You can't go wrong here except for nurglings or bloodletters.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Yeah the list looks Good.
All the big daemons are fine imo.

The slaanesh and tzeentch daemons are largely interchangable. Slaanesh have the obvious advantage of the lash, and also more reliable charge distances. Tzeentch have more reliable psychic powers and are more durable due to re roll 1's, they can still get a ranged attack through flickering fire.

Personally I like Slaanesh DPs, but I dont like the KoS tax, so I tend to just take the one. I know the KoS is actually pretty decent, I just hate having all my big daemons flying except one.

As for the troops, it is mostly down to preference. Horrors are most popular, followed by plague bearers. Some people use daemonettes.....and no one uses bloodletters competitively. You can't go wrong here except for nurglings or bloodletters.

Great insight. The keeper is only marginally slower than a flying MC thanks to slanesh running an additional 3" and fleet letting him reroll his bad run. On average with a run the keeper goes about 13". Give him the 12" deployment and turn one he gets up the table 25". I love him for his price, at 1850 he still gets you 5 greater daemons as kitting him out with 2 greater gifts makes him only cost 210 points. That's a tremendous bargain! I've played with Daemonettes, I like them a lot but you have to have them in squads of 20. They're nice for a more aggressive build. They aren't the best at holding objectives like pink horrors or plague bearers.

KoS certainly run rather cheaply and are good for the cost. Now I often run slaanesh grinders with torrent, so I know that running slaanesh models can get places fairly quickly, however it is still much slower of course than the guaranteed 24 inches of a FMC, on average normally around 10 inches less per turn. I tried the keeper before, and all he did the whole game was run after the opponents army as my 2 flying princes with lash took it apart. I think he got to kill 2 marines, so I was not too impressed. I might try deep striking him next time, or using him to help hold my backfield objective if they have deep striking units.

Daemonettes are also good for running into MCs. Normally your princes would be hesitant due to ID T5, however the daemonettes with their rending make a decent counter if they ever make it into contact. When using Be'lakor however this role becomes redundant.

He is very good no matter how you look at it, titan or no titan...he force multiplies VERY well and can make Revenants cry with Puppet Master.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
KoS certainly run rather cheaply and are good for the cost. Now I often run slaanesh grinders with torrent, so I know that running slaanesh models can get places fairly quickly, however it is still much slower of course than the guaranteed 24 inches of a FMC, on average normally around 10 inches less per turn. I tried the keeper before, and all he did the whole game was run after the opponents army as my 2 flying princes with lash took it apart. I think he got to kill 2 marines, so I was not too impressed. I might try deep striking him next time, or using him to help hold my backfield objective if they have deep striking units.

Daemonettes are also good for running into MCs. Normally your princes would be hesitant due to ID T5, however the daemonettes with their rending make a decent counter if they ever make it into contact. When using Be'lakor however this role becomes redundant.

Being slaanesh the SLOWEST he can go a turn while running is 10 inches, not the average. The average movement is 13 inches a turn when he runs. The statistical medium is rolling a 4, add 3 inches being slaanesh and a 6 inch movement. Turn one he's up the table 25 inches on average because of deployment. Now in Dawn of War deployment whereas he needs to move 42" to get to the opponents table edge, theoretically he makes it there turn 3. That's not even counting the charge, and that's also if the opponent is castle-ing. Now if the opponent deploys up turn one, and moves, he has the potential for a turn 3 charge. He's also a fire magnet, a big distraction, and if your opponent is spending his time running away from the KoS then you're also controlling the board, and your opponent mentally. When you have 4 other flying MCs the keeper doesn't suffer from not being able to fly, he gives you a monster beatstick and weighs in at 210 points. Those are my thoughts/ experiences playing with him!

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
KoS certainly run rather cheaply and are good for the cost. Now I often run slaanesh grinders with torrent, so I know that running slaanesh models can get places fairly quickly, however it is still much slower of course than the guaranteed 24 inches of a FMC, on average normally around 10 inches less per turn. I tried the keeper before, and all he did the whole game was run after the opponents army as my 2 flying princes with lash took it apart. I think he got to kill 2 marines, so I was not too impressed. I might try deep striking him next time, or using him to help hold my backfield objective if they have deep striking units.

Daemonettes are also good for running into MCs. Normally your princes would be hesitant due to ID T5, however the daemonettes with their rending make a decent counter if they ever make it into contact. When using Be'lakor however this role becomes redundant.

Being slaanesh the SLOWEST he can go a turn while running is 10 inches, not the average. The average movement is 13 inches a turn when he runs. The statistical medium is rolling a 4, add 3 inches being slaanesh and a 6 inch movement. Turn one he's up the table 25 inches on average because of deployment. Now in Dawn of War deployment whereas he needs to move 42" to get to the opponents table edge, theoretically he makes it there turn 3. That's not even counting the charge, and that's also if the opponent is castle-ing. Now if the opponent deploys up turn one, and moves, he has the potential for a turn 3 charge. He's also a fire magnet, a big distraction, and if your opponent is spending his time running away from the KoS then you're also controlling the board, and your opponent mentally. When you have 4 other flying MCs the keeper doesn't suffer from not being able to fly, he gives you a monster beatstick and weighs in at 210 points. Those are my thoughts/ experiences playing with him!

Yeah, I know the average is 13, as I said he moves on average around 10 less than a flyer

I find it very hard to deploy a greater daemon/ Daemon prince right on the edge of my deployment zone, for fear of tau missiles and such weapons. If eldar get the first turn for example, the the KoS should be taken down by all of those serpent shield shots. More and more I am believing the best ways to deploy the GUO and KoS is to deep strike them, that way they should only have to face 1 turn of shooting, as opposed to 3.

KoS is still good for his points.....however he just seems so slow when running a flying circus list. I like all my army to arrive where they need to be at the same time.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
KoS certainly run rather cheaply and are good for the cost. Now I often run slaanesh grinders with torrent, so I know that running slaanesh models can get places fairly quickly, however it is still much slower of course than the guaranteed 24 inches of a FMC, on average normally around 10 inches less per turn. I tried the keeper before, and all he did the whole game was run after the opponents army as my 2 flying princes with lash took it apart. I think he got to kill 2 marines, so I was not too impressed. I might try deep striking him next time, or using him to help hold my backfield objective if they have deep striking units.

Daemonettes are also good for running into MCs. Normally your princes would be hesitant due to ID T5, however the daemonettes with their rending make a decent counter if they ever make it into contact. When using Be'lakor however this role becomes redundant.

Being slaanesh the SLOWEST he can go a turn while running is 10 inches, not the average. The average movement is 13 inches a turn when he runs. The statistical medium is rolling a 4, add 3 inches being slaanesh and a 6 inch movement. Turn one he's up the table 25 inches on average because of deployment. Now in Dawn of War deployment whereas he needs to move 42" to get to the opponents table edge, theoretically he makes it there turn 3. That's not even counting the charge, and that's also if the opponent is castle-ing. Now if the opponent deploys up turn one, and moves, he has the potential for a turn 3 charge. He's also a fire magnet, a big distraction, and if your opponent is spending his time running away from the KoS then you're also controlling the board, and your opponent mentally. When you have 4 other flying MCs the keeper doesn't suffer from not being able to fly, he gives you a monster beatstick and weighs in at 210 points. Those are my thoughts/ experiences playing with him!

Yeah, I know the average is 13, as I said he moves on average around 10 less than a flyer

I find it very hard to deploy a greater daemon/ Daemon prince right on the edge of my deployment zone, for fear of tau missiles and such weapons. If eldar get the first turn for example, the the KoS should be taken down by all of those serpent shield shots. More and more I am believing the best ways to deploy the GUO and KoS is to deep strike them, that way they should only have to face 1 turn of shooting, as opposed to 3.

KoS is still good for his points.....however he just seems so slow when running a flying circus list. I like all my army to arrive where they need to be at the same time.

Well not going first as Daemons is going to be a big hit either way, especially when you're running grimoire and what not. They all have invuls however and it does take quite a bit to take them down. Against Eldar and Tau I've lost a GD turn one and still mopped the floor with them. They're just so fast and they knock on Tau's door turn 1. Tau basically has one full round of shooting at Daemons and then the daemon player is so in your face quick that it forces tau to make decisions. Everyone knows when forced to make fast decisions you often make mistakes.

I misred what you said RE the keepers movement, however I've never personally had an issue with his speed. Also, I like to pack as many MC as I can, and at 1850 it's very difficult without going the keeper route to pack in 5 MC.

Be'lakor as an ally is great, and the 50-pt cultist unit is great too. Heck, make it two units, especially if you're running him in a flying circus list. Remember, the same weapons the enemy uses to kill wimpy troop choices get thrown at your flying monsters to ground them. Squat those cultist squads on objectives or keep them huddled in terrain for end of game hustles. They'll be performing the same job as your twice-the-cost daemon troops and saving points to throw at your super expensive flying workhorses.

Can someone explain why Bel'Akor has to be the warlord if paired with Fateweaver?

New to daemons and trying to wrap my head around them.

Also I think I like deamonetes better than plaguebearers.

valace2 wrote:
Can someone explain why Bel'Akor has to be the warlord if paired with Fateweaver?

New to daemons and trying to wrap my head around them.

Also I think I like deamonetes better than plaguebearers.

If he is taken in the primary detachment, he has to be the Warlord as he has a higher Leadership.

Because Be'lakor had Ld 10 to the 9 Fateweaver has, so by BRB warlord in your army is the HQ with the highest Ld.

valace2 wrote:
Can someone explain why Bel'Akor has to be the warlord if paired with Fateweaver?

New to daemons and trying to wrap my head around them.

Also I think I like deamonetes better than plaguebearers.

models with highest leadership have to be the warlord.

Daemonettes and plaguebearers have their own individual uses. Daemonettes will almost never hold you an objective. Plague bearers will get you that objective but almost never kill a single model. Daemonettes are excellent in the flying circus variant as they're quick and usually your opponent is cranking firepower into your daemon princes. If that's the case then daemonettes will make it to combat and will kill almost anything. If they're firing at the daemonettes then they're taking flakk off of your daemon princes.

I like to run 4-5 FMC
2x 10 plaguebearers
and 1x 20 man squad of daemonettes

Eldercaveman wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Can someone explain why Bel'Akor has to be the warlord if paired with Fateweaver?

New to daemons and trying to wrap my head around them.

Also I think I like deamonetes better than plaguebearers.

If he is taken in the primary detachment, he has to be the Warlord as he has a higher Leadership.

Kinda funny I am an imperial player and also play Tau its never really been an issue as most imperial characters I run all have LD10, I never actually knew that was a rule, it would suck to lose Fateweavers Warlord trait.

Guess I will be picking up some cultists then. Are there no other CSM units that work well with daemons? I know the farking Heldrake which I won't be purchasing is good, but are there no other CSM units that work with flying daemons?

valace2 wrote:
Guess I will be picking up some cultists then. Are there no other CSM units that work well with daemons? I know the farking Heldrake which I won't be purchasing is good, but are there no other CSM units that work with flying daemons?

Nurgle Chaos Spawn and Maulerfiends are both excellent for the points.