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how does Luther beat the Lion

how does Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman

makes no sense

Luther was not a Space Marine. He was human. Too old for the change.

Same for Kor Phaeron.

Humans kick ass in w40k. At least some do. No inconsistency, there are many examples out there.

I can't believe you didn't mention Mortarion getting a heart tattoo.

Chaos did it

Luther was an almighty champion of Chaos. I'm pretty sure that even Abbadon could bring the pain onto a Primarch if he was too duke it out with them.


Kor Phaeron is basically a Necron the way he is going with all his bionics.

Luther was mega juiced on Chaos, and per the HH books had the true name of at least one greater daemon.

Kor Phaeron was shooting lazorz out of a magic dagger that channeled the power of the Ruinstorm.

Luther was on par (in lokens opinion) with 2 other beings he had met, horus and the emperor, this is the whole reason why he was sought after by chaos over any of the remaining traitor primarchs after horus dies, Luther is not just a human, he is a man capable of overturning the whole galaxy if given the (chaos) power, there is no surprise to me that a juiced up human (lLuther) is capable of beating the man he trained when they are out in equal terms.

 Formosa wrote:
Luther was on par (in lokens opinion) with 2 other beings he had met, horus and the emperor, this is the whole reason why he was sought after by chaos over any of the remaining traitor primarchs after horus dies, Luther is not just a human, he is a man capable of overturning the whole galaxy if given the (chaos) power, there is no surprise to me that a juiced up human (lLuther) is capable of beating the man he trained when they are out in equal terms.

luther was as powerful as horus and the emperor

are you saying that if luther wasn't jacked up by chaos, lion would of beat him

Right, without Chaos juice Luther is just another old-ass human with enhancements. Even with terminator armor on, a space marine/augmented human would lose an arm wrestling contest to a naked Primarch.

If you want an understanding of the fluff, you should read the books, not try to piece it from forum answers which are often incorrect or based on fan fiction. For example, claiming Luther was as powerful as Horus and the Emperor, when in fact Loken was referring to the man's ability to lead and inspire (seeing as Luther was the one who held the Dark Angels Legion together, with Lion being just the aloof psycho figurehead).

Luthor was talented and capable, able to carry out deeds above normal men, achieving acts that nearly rivaled that of the Lion, but the Lion was a primarch and he would forever be in his shadow.

Edit: Bad spelling

 Omegus wrote:
Right, without Chaos juice Luther is just another old-ass human with enhancements. Even with terminator armor on, a space marine/augmented human would lose an arm wrestling contest to a naked Primarch.

If you want an understanding of the fluff, you should read the books, not try to piece it from forum answers which are often incorrect or based on fan fiction. For example, claiming Luther was as powerful as Horus and the Emperor, when in fact Loken was referring to the man's ability to lead and inspire (seeing as Luther was the one who held the Dark Angels Legion together, with Lion being just the aloof psycho figurehead).

That's really interesting. Which BL book is that from? It's a cool angle I would like to know more about it. I wish Cypher was talked about in some of the HH books.

Because being high on Chaos power lets you do some darn fun and power stuff. The side effects however are a bit of a downer and can be a pain in the but.

Yep that's correct Luther's cult of personality was equal to horus and the big e, this is why the big 4 chose him as the next vessel to take down the imperium, even over the primarchs.

Remember in aurellian "horus was not our only choice"

LightKing wrote:
how does Luther beat the Lion

how does Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman

makes no sense

Lucifer had an obscene amount power flooded into him by the Chaos Gods. He was just a man who became as hard as a primarch due to the power. The same thing happened to Horus at the Siege of Terra. By the time Horus reach Terra he was a Chaos Champion of the highest order. Lucifer was to a primarch what Horus was to a primarch.

Luther was at that point amplified by the power of Chaos to be equal to the Lion.

As for Kor Phaeron, well, the man seems to be the most powerful sorcerer in the galaxy not named Magnus the Red or Lorgar. He defeated Guilliman, but only through the use of his sorcery. When he foolishly tried to corrupt him from an arm's length away from Roboute, the Primarch of the Ultramarines literally tore his heart out.

Primarchs were never all that. The HH books and FW rules vastly exaggerate them.

 Daba wrote:
Primarchs were never all that. The HH books and FW rules vastly exaggerate them.

Oh, you mean the books that go in more detail on them than any other?

Sure, lol.

Or would you prefer to use GW material only, featuring such interesting bits like Konrad Curze crawling from the core of his planet covered in molten metals?

Space Marine is the only reliable source on the HH. Everything else is myth based on the superstition and exaggeration in the 41st millennium!

Some of it is truth, some of it isn't. The problem you have is what is true and what is false and there isn't a way of knowing.

Even the Heresy has the 40k symbol on it so you could treat that exactly the same way if it contradicts other material.

Lynata might jump in and post her wares on fluff and how it works

But she'll use ADB quotes to back her point. And when you use the ramblings of ADB as evidence, your argument sort of falls apart at the seams.

"Oh there is no canon just interpretations and all are valid"
*Later*
"I am sorry stupid fan of my work but your interpretation of it is simply not valid and quite frankly makes me wish you ill."

How inconsistent.

Anyway, Primarchs punch mountains apart etc.

I thought the Black Library authors said the Horus Heresy series was "How they themselves felt it actually happened" or something like that? (note: The "how they themselves felt" at the start of that sentence makes it significantly different from "how it actually happened" by itself. But that still makes just brushing it off as myth kinda dumb IMHO. There's wriggle room to say you don't think that's how it actually happened, but the folk writing them at least feel that's how it did, which means it shouldn't just be brushed aside like that)

.....assuming my memory's right.