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With a few more Horus Heresy books having come with snippets and hints about the missing Primarchs, I was wondering if we could open a fresh thread and try and whittle down possible explanations for what went wrong.

Fact I:
Each Primarch represents a facet of the Emperor's personality. What two aspects of him remain?

Fact II:
In Deliverance Lost the Emperor mentions the two legions with "Deep sorrow" and his face turning bleak.
This would imply they did not rebel or commit any other kind of "heresy" - but that a misunderstanding took place, that they were victim to something (mutation?), or overstepped some boundary that was not severe enough to make the anger hold resentment towards them. -This assumes fatherly love doesn't supersede any actual crime they committed.

Fact III:
"The Lightning Tower" says there was "an accident" that befell them. So again, doesn't sound like willful betrayal or conscious act of subversion.

Fact IV:
In Mechanicum, Dorn regrets they did not have the other two Legions on their side, suggesting they did not "fight back" against the Emperor or renounce him and so would not have sided with Horus automatically.

Fact VI:
"Rumors" that the majority of these Legions ended up with the Ultramarines implies this was a personal offense by the Primarchs, and not a Legion-wide rebellion, act, or belief.


SO>
Dakkanauts, what can we do with this information.

Lost in the warp?

The rumours I have mostly heard say that the two 'missing' primarchs made an enourmous, grave error (like Magnus did) and were wiped out by the SW, with their remnants becoming part of the Ultramarines.

''Grave error'' Insulting the Emperor without actually betraying him maybe?

They are an intriguing case. On the one hand, it seems that the Emprah and other Primarchs genuinely miss those two guys. On the other hand, the two Primarchs were most likely executed, their Legions exterminated and/or (partially?) assimilated into Ultramarines, and all records regarding them expunged around the time of the Horus Heresy.

It couldn't be Chaos, since the vast majority of Astartes were unaware of it until shortly before the HH. What was that, then?

Could be one killed the other and so he was executed... 2 birds, 1 stone...

I like the idea that one just decided to leave the cause... Just up and went, never to return, hence the possible assimilation by the smurfs, as the legion did no wrong, it was the primarch alone, he is hushed and not spoken of due to the shame or lack of 'warrior spirit' within him, maybe he was a pacifist, genocide didn't suit him.... Or he didn't survive the fiddling by the gods, and his perceived weakness is again the reason why he is covered up.

The second, rather than some grave mutation - maybe the consorted with xenos, maybe they made alliance, or attempted alliance with the xenos beyond that of the other legions, maybe even taking arms against a legion wishing to exterminate said xenos, and they were the legion executed by the wolves.

I don't believe it was chaos involvement, due to the lack of knowledge of chaos among the Primarch until the heresy.

Read the First Heretic, Lorgar and Magnus have a very interesting conversation about a vote to see if Lorgar should be destroyed too, insinuating that all Primarchs have a say in whether a brother can be eradicated.
Also, in Fear to Tread, Sanguinius asks Horus not to mention his Legion's Red Thirst incase they get wiped out too. This, to me, suggests that at least one legion had severe issues.
And Aaron Dembski-Bowden has confirmed that no legions merged with the Ultramarines, it's just Word Bearers gossiping.

@DILL3NGER -

Personally, I'm open to suggestions, but I find it likely that by the time of the HH, the Great Crusade hadn't progressed far enough for the remaining two Primarchs to have been found. To pick holes in my own theory, this still doesn't explain what happened to the two legions created from the missing Primarch's DNA (Assuming Aaron Dembski-Bowden was telling the truth in saying they weren't absorbed) or why any records were so ruthlessly expunged from Imperial databases...

The two missing legions were the female Astartes legions.

Their Primarchs represented the Emperor's love of house-keeping and love of fashion, respectively.

I'm guessing Slannesh changed all that...

All the Primarchs were found though. One of the lost was third found, after Horus and Russ, and the big thing about Alpharius is that he was the last found.

Is it explicitly mentioned that all were found? I'm not questioning you personally Sir Sam, but where is that mentioned?

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Is it explicitly mentioned that all were found? I'm not questioning you personally Sir Sam, but where is that mentioned?

Here: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=136&st=15

Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:

Horus
Leman Russ
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Alpharius

Please bear in mind that there is a difference between a primarch being found, and a primarch taking command of their Legion.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Is it explicitly mentioned that all were found? I'm not questioning you personally Sir Sam, but where is that mentioned?

Alpha Legion's original IA article, it mentions Horus discovering Alpharius and been proper made up that he found his final brother.
The whole row between Alpharius and Guilliman was, in Alpharius' eyes, Guilliman picking on Alpharius because he was the final Primarch.

@Sir Sam @ Zweischneid - Cheers for the info on that. So we can definitely rule out the Primarchs having been simply lost in the warp/galaxy.

Hmm, so here's another kinda wild idea (It's most probably utter bull****, but oh well ) - Now, I'm winging it here, but this idea has always knocked around in the back of my head, so I may as well share it with you guys (So you can no doubt tear it to shreds ): It's said that the Warhammer World (Warhammer Fantasy) was visited by the 'Old Ones' who commanded the Slann to change it's orbit. This produced a warmer climate, which in turn promoted life.

This has always suggested to me then, that the Warhammer World resides within the 40K Galaxy, and as many will have no doubt noticed, many of the races of the Warhammer World have counterparts in the 40K galaxy. Obviously, this is probably just coincidental as 40K is based on the Fantasy game, but if we assume them to be in the same Galaxy, then is it possible that Sigmar is in fact one of the lost Primarchs? He was known to be incredibly charismatic and a fierce warrior, but both qualities were tempered by a profound wisdom. Furthermore, since Sigmar was known to have only 'disappeared', could it be possible that he saw the coming of the Emperor and set off to meet him.

That's really as far as I get with that one - I still can't explain how or why he would later be purged from records or why the Imperium doesn't annex the Warhammer world. So there, crazy theory over, I'll shuffle off into a dark corner now

The theory of sigmar being a primarch has come up before, and if i recall correctly has been officially denied.

Fantasy and 40k are not in the same universe. Besides, the Fantasy planet would be a prime target for Exterminatus.

But if we go with it, the story of Fantasy would take place before the HH, so in the 41'st millennium things could be a hell of a lot different on that planet. Most likely consumed by Chaos.

The original teaser was that Sigmar was a Primarch before they retconned the idea of the WHFB world being a planet in 40k. I do still love that idea though.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Is it explicitly mentioned that all were found? I'm not questioning you personally Sir Sam, but where is that mentioned?

Alpha Legion's original IA article, it mentions Horus discovering Alpharius and been proper made up that he found his final brother.
The whole row between Alpharius and Guilliman was, in Alpharius' eyes, Guilliman picking on Alpharius because he was the final Primarch.

Sadly, that IA article has been rendered mostly irrelevant and incorrect now, as has the Raven Guard's IA article.

@Lord Spartacus - I'm not so sure whether the Fantasy world would be so different in the 41st millennium. As the world wasn't unified under human domination, it could make perfect sense if Sigmar had simply left with his most loyal warriors, rejoined his legion and become a fleet based legion as the Warhammer world had no strategic or cultural significance - similar to a feral world. In any case, the point is moot if the Sigmar Primarch idea is denied. It's good to see I'm not the only one who thought of that though.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Fantasy and 40k are not in the same universe. Besides, the Fantasy planet would be a prime target for Exterminatus.

But if we go with it, the story of Fantasy would take place before the HH, so in the 41'st millennium things could be a hell of a lot different on that planet. Most likely consumed by Chaos.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Lord Spartacus - I'm not so sure whether the Fantasy world would be so different in the 41st millennium. As the world wasn't unified under human domination, it could make perfect sense if Sigmar had simply left with his most loyal warriors, rejoined his legion and become a fleet based legion as the Warhammer world had no strategic or cultural significance - similar to a feral world. In any case, the point is moot if the Sigmar Primarch idea is denied. It's good to see I'm not the only one who thought of that though.

If they would be in the same universe, than Fantasy would most likely take place after 40k, as Slaanesh was only born in M30, and in Fantasy he/she/it is described as 'having always exsisted', or at the very least Slaanesh was already there when the Old Ones dissapeared and Chaos came into the world. which was 5600 years before Sigmar's time.
So no, Sigmar can not possibly have been one of the missing primarchs.
The 'present' of Fantasy can therefore not have been earlier than M39, which places it at the very least during the 40k timeframe.

In general, I find the theory that both Warhammers are located in the same universe ridiculous. There are too many differences in the nature of both universes to be one and the same.
And I also believe that it has been stated by GW that both universes are seperate.

Of course, fiction is fiction, so everyone should feel free to make up his own explanations.

I always forget about Slaanesh, so thanks for bringing it up. His late birth pretty much confirms 40k and fantasy are not part of the same universe.

2 cents of ranting, bear with me

For the "Sigmar possibility", rhere is... well, the possibility of it. It is true that Slaanesh was born "late", but since it exists in rhe warp, from its birth it always existed (paradoxes of warp 101)
But again, iirc, gw themselves ruled fb and 40k as totally unrelated, despite the chaos' identity.

For the two lost primarch, I recently read "Lost sons" and, if memory serves me right

So mia, kia and "different choices" (a primarch could have had a family, as with offsprings) are a possibility. But I would not exclude an hidden imperial agenda... I mean one primarch is chosen for a long term secret fask and, to keep the secret, Russ is dispatched to deal with a faked "black sheep", his legion disbanded/absorbed into another andany records espunged. Why delete the records? I mean, look at whaf Horus and Fulgrim did... And their legions are well listed and marked as traitoris extremis... The very fact of the secret deletion should be enough to give a hunch that they are to be believed dead...

Ok, that's all for my rantings, for now (that, and it's 3.00 a.m., here)

Hmmm, I'm not convinced personally. Should Russ have been sent to enforce the disbandment of a Legion - where did those Astartes go? Aaron Dembski - Bowden has point blank denied that the UM absorbed the marines, so the only course of action open to Russ would have been to kill them all, or to exile them. If it's the former, then I reckon that killing them wasn't the Emperor's style. When Magnus the Red 'rebelled', the Emperor asked Russ to bring him and only him back - it was Horus who manipulated the orders that sent Russ off down the warpath. Hence, if one or both of the Lost Primarchs were off on a secret task and loyal to the Imperium, then what cause would the Emperor have to kill them all - that would only serve to weaken the Imperium. If the latter choice is chose - exile, then where did they go? The galaxy is a big place, granted, but hiding a whole Legion of 10,000 - 100,000 (depending on which baseline value GW is running with nowadays) is pretty hard, even more so if it's 2 whole legions to hide.

As for Primarchs having children... Well, I don't really know where I stand on that. The Emperor had children, but he was essentially just one man with a lot of powerful souls crammed into him. But Primarchs? Like Astartes, they were genetically engineered. I suppose it all falls down to the question of whether Astartes can breed. I'd tentatively say no, as I assume the gene-forging would sterilise them and lower sex drive. I presume it's the same for Primarchs. If I were the Emperor, I'd want to keep my creation's minds firmly fixed on only one type of conquest. That said, I don't know what's up with the Space Wolves

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Sir Sam @ Zweischneid - Cheers for the info on that. So we can definitely rule out the Primarchs having been simply lost in the warp/galaxy.

Yes.

Remember that the original intention was to have 2 "blank" Legions that would allow people to insert their own "home-made" Legions (Loyalist or Chaos), similar to "home-made" Chapters / CSM Warbands, but on a larger scale.

Whatever the "explanation" is (though I doubt it will ever come to light), it would be such that they could both be "re-inserted" into Warhammer 40K similar to how an ambitious Hobbyist might re-introduce "his" II. Legion that he build on this blank space.

Explanations of "gone", "lost", "absorbed", "killed-to-the-last" are all implausible as a consequence. Both lost Legions are "still out there" or at least "potentially still out there".

I could potentially see how the Lost Legions could be expanded upon though. Now, I know GW's original intention was for these two Legions to serve as, as you put it, 'blanks' for people to create homegrown chapters, but the way I see it, in the 41st Millenium, the splitting of the Legions into chapters, and the subsequent foundings, provide more than enough leeway for homegrown chapters. I may be wrong, but I personally think that the lost legions could very well have their own story aside from serving simply as an explanation for homegrown chapters. By this point, the foundings more than enough explain that aspect IMHO.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I could potentially see how the Lost Legions could be expanded upon though. Now, I know GW's original intention was for these two Legions to serve as, as you put it, 'blanks' for people to create homegrown chapters, but the way I see it, in the 41st Millenium, the splitting of the Legions into chapters, and the subsequent foundings, provide more than enough leeway for homegrown chapters. I may be wrong, but I personally think that the lost legions could very well have their own story aside from serving simply as an explanation for homegrown chapters. By this point, the foundings more than enough explain that aspect IMHO.

I agree.

But the same principle still applies.

If Games Workshop were to ever "reveal" the secret of the Lost Legions, it would be a reveal that allows the release of Warhammer 40K (not just 30K) miniatures, books and the ability to launch a 40K hobby project.

If Games Workshop does not reveal the secret of the Lost Legions, "your" answer to this mystery serves no purpose, unless it helps justify a hobby project.

An "answer" that simply has both Legions lost in the mists of ancient history serves no purpose. Hell, Games Workshop already did explicitly kill off an entire Legion, disbanded and gone forever - The World Eaters - and yet people still cling to their World Eater armies in 40K against all reason and published fluff.

Therefore, an "answer" to the Lost Legions that would somehow prohibit a "Warhammer 40K hobby/army project" based on these Legions seems highly unlikely whichever way you look at it.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Hell, Games Workshop already did explicitly kill off an entire Legion, disbanded and gone forever - The World Eaters - and yet people still cling to their World Eater armies in 40K against all reason and published fluff.

Didn't they just scatter into small warbands after Kharn went on a rampage?