Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Trying to put together my first army in a long, long time, and I'm having trouble deciding what to do for an anti-AV component.

I currently have a Helbrute. Yeah, I know, they're trash, but I like the model and got one for cheaps and it fits my Nurgle theme far better than a 'Fiend.

But I'm struggling with heavy support options... I don't *really* want to take any tanks though I'm not totally against the idea; but I was looking at either Havocs or Obliterators, or both -- 2 Oblits costs about the same as a 3 Lascannon Havoc squad, both with Marks of Nurgle, so that's currently my goal. But is there a better option? 3-man tjhrowaway Termie squad with combi-Meltas and PF/CFs? Havocs with Meltas? pls halp!

Havocs with flak missiles can deal with anything in theory even though they're expensive.

Nurgle Oblits are probably gonna work very well in most cases though other than anti-air and I don't think there's gonna be a scenario where you regret getting them.

EDIT : oh yeah scratch the flak Havocs, they can't deal with Riptides at all. I'm going to say that unless you want to have the most Lascannons possible, go with Oblits since they're very versatile.

Termicide (3 terminators with combi meltas) are a great choice. They are cheap, can arrive by deep strike, and threaten enemies with power weapons after they 'blow their load'.

Termicide is cheap, disposable, can arrive anywhere on the table, and have great anti tank. Excellent if you play someplace where you may need to deal with superheavies

I personaly run 2 squads of 3 oblits with mon and a predator annhialator. You would be suprised how well twin linked plasma guns can drop a flyer. Esp when you can deep strike and hit rear armour. Ap2 is a nice bonus to drop em out of the aky as well. Its a gamble but hey, it tends to do alright. I toyed with autocannon havoks but opted for oblits because they make a good bodyguard for my chaos termi lord.

I prefer Oblits over Hsvocs. Havocs could be really good with four plasmaguns infiltrating in a rhino.

At 1,500 I run 2 units of 2 Nurgle Obliterators, and a unit of 5 Havocs w/ 4 Autocannons.

It's not exactly amazing anti-tank, but it gives you enough punch to handle light armor and heavy stuff if it comes along. Another nice bonus is that, if you're running Huron, you can infiltrate the Oblits or Havocs into better positions for close-in Multi-Melta shots, side shots, etc.


CSM actually does pretty well at opening up the heavier things in H2H. Huron's claw is S6 Armorbane so he can hack up even Land Raiders fairly well, DPs are obviously nasty against armor, and against AV10/11, Spawn can actually strip hull points fairly well. Finally Vector Strikes are good against things with weak side armor.

Havocs are the cheaper option and they bring greater firepower PER TURN. However, they have nothing in defence on top of a normal marine and decent amounts of anti infantry fire will bring them down.
But, you might say, why should I care about them going down after they've already popped the enemy's armour?
Most commonly used setup would be 5 Havocs with 4 Autocannons. Decent rate of fire, bane of any light vehicle with s7 and great range.


Obliterators are a hell lot more expansive but they offer FLEXIBILITY and DEEP STRIKE. Both are potential game changers, especially combining their TL meltaguns and multimeltas with the said deep strike advantage. (But remember terminator squads of 3 can do this too!)
Heavy Flamers are excellent in case some fast unit wants to assault them, and assault cannons shred any infantry caught out in the open. They used to be able to fire the same weapon two turns in a row but they lost that now, gaining some new toys.
Nurgle Marks seem to be the norm, but Tzeentch brings their Invul save to 4++ and that can be useful sometimes.
No matter which mark, you probably should give them VotLW.
Remember that all obliterators in unit have to fire the same weapon and use in squads of 2.
2 squads of 2 seem to work best, if you can spare the points and the HS slot.

Well, Oblits are more flexible to use. They can be deployed in the backfield to provide fire support or closer to the enemy (deep strike) to bolster an assault with their tl meltas/plasma guns.

I idiotically bought and made 12 ac carrying marines b4 the new dex came out. I was having difficulty with DE at the local meta.

When i use 3 squads of havocs with 4 ac i feel like i have to add at least 2 bullet catchers and a rhino just to block los. This becomes expensive but it reassures me that the enemy has to try harder to kill them.

By only having 5 men and losing 1 man to shooting forces a moral check. They usually fail.

Oblits are great but I generally prefer 2 squads of 4 LC Havocs as they're cheaper than max oblits and once you position them in cover in your starting area, you basically just watch them earn back their points from turn 1.
Dropping them behind an Aegis with a QG gives you a unit that deals out Anti Armor, Air, and Hoard with a solid armor and cover save.

It completely depends on your strategy and where you feel like you need to spend points to cover the weakness.

Options that I've seen used to varying effects:

Termacide / Oblit-cide
Small unit of meta Terminators or Oblits - deep strike in and hit rear army. Great for sniping a specific vehicle and disruption enemy lines all in the same time. Risky due to deep striking scatter. Tends to be truly only effective against a single vehicle before they get tied up in combat or shot to death; however, after they do their job, their value in a distraction is also extremely useful. Not very effective against flyers.

Havocs
Long range and cheap (relatively). Can be useful if there isn't a lot of LoS blocking terrain. Putting them behind an ADL adds points but gives them a cover save and access to an icarus lascannon or quad gun for skyfire options. If stronghold assault datasheets are allowed, throwing them into an Imperial Bunker can be very useful since 8 of them can shoot out of the AV14 building and the fortification can get an emplaced quad gun (auto-firing flyers for you) and have an ammo store inside which allows you to reroll to hit rolls of 1. Another option that would be slightly more expensive than this would be to use a Firestorm redoubt instead of a bunker. No need for the emplaced gun upgrade give the 2 quad licarus lascannons and the SA sheet for it allows you to shoot 6 models out of it's 1 fire port making it perfect for a 5 man havoc squad and is cheaper than 3 triple las predators.

Forgefiend
Similar to Havocs but a bit tougher to deal kill via shooting. Daemonforge is very useful to ensure you get the penetrating roll when you need it the most. Largest weakness (imo) is that it has the same issue with terrain between him and his targets. Due to the number of shots from the 2 autocannons, forgefiends can be decent against flyers as well.

Heldrake w/ Autocannon
This is the non-traditional version of the heldrake but is also versatile in addressing vehicles and flyers alike. With 360 degree shooting and vector striking, it can move into position and address threats as needed. It is not as effective against infantry as the baleflamer option; however, the autocannon can still be effective against infantry. In addition, the Heldrake also has access to daemonforge like the forgefiend which helps ensure you can make those penetrating hits.

Triple Lascannon Predator
Fairly cheap and mean. These are true anti-vehicles but still suffer from LoS terrain and are not as effective as other options against flyers.

Heralds of Tzeench
If you are running Daemon allies, Heralds of Tzeench are worth a look and investment. Being able to draw from divination, they can cast Prescience onto your Havocs or Forgefiends or anything else in order to allow you to reroll hits. This is a huge advantage when you want to get the most out of your anti-vehicle units. They are relatively brittle but are also cheap compared to the amount of bonus they can give your army.

I still find the best bang for your buck is 2 Predators with LC Sponsons (115pts each) and 2 Obliterators with MoN and LotLW (158pts) for a total of 390pts.

Why not triple Lascannon preds you ask? I should already be getting two LC shots on my target and that should be enough. If it isn't AV 14, your adding in an additional 2 AC shots which help you kill hoards a little faster and really makes up for killing AV 12 vehicles. If you /really/ want a tank that can deal with /any/ situation, throw a Havoc Launcher on it for 12pts. AV 13 will keep you alive, your Bale Flamer proof (well, 33% pen roll on rear armor) and you don't run away, which is the bane of /every/ infantry option you pick over them. Nothing like having your Havoks, Terminators, or Obliterators run off the board on a bad leadership roll.

Speaking of bad leadership and Obliterators, that is why they have Vets on them. The simple fact of you lose one Oblit, your rolling Leadership (since your max size is 3) means that for 3-9pts your being silly to not take this. Average roll on 2d6 is 7 and their base leadership is 8. If you don't take it, your look at them running away 40% of the time. Sure, a 9 is only a a little better, but the percentage increase versus points spent (specially if your Deep Striking, which means their impact on the game is lessened because they are not on the board shooting for those turns till they come in) makes it almost a must have. Why not go all Oblits? Because they can not fire the same weapon every turn. They just do not have the consistent firepower needed to do the job required for them if they are your main for of anti-AV.

If you want Anti-Aircraft, get a Fortification or something that gives you massive amount of shots (my Pred up there gives you 4 shots, which is not terrible). If you want Anti-Tank (AV 13-14), you want Lascannons at long range, Melta guns at short range. Against transports and walkers, Str 7 weapons are king, specially because they normally have multiple shots (ACs and Plasmas).

For you, since you want to use something like a Hellbrute, I suggest the Power Scourge and TLed LC upgrades, but keep that thing in cover! It is otherwise pretty fragile all things considered. The good thing is that it is a elite slot and not a heavy slot, so your heavy slots are still open. IF you want to keep your Hellbrutes cheap (aka stock), I suggest 3x of them unless you really want to play with Terminators. But hey, 300pts of Hellbrutes (FAQ is 100pts) and 390pts of Heavy slots with what I suggest and you should be rocking. Rock a bunch of 5 man Plague Marines in Rhinos with twin plasma plus a melta bomb on the Champ with a Combi-Melta on the Rhino for 190pts each. Then to make them troops and to fill out your list get a Lord on a Bike with melta bombs, a LC, PF, and Sigil for 170pts (counting MoN). Then run him with a 5 man bike squad to soak wounds (MoN, 2x Plasma, Melta Bomb for 175pts). You can now look at a unmarked Sorc to ride with them (+2 ML, Melta Bomb, Bike, Sigil for 160pts) or throw in a Helldrake and you might have a pretty effective 1850pt list (fill the rest of the points with Cultists for rear objective campers).