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So I'm thinking of running teams of crisis with 5 flamers and a fusion gun for my farsight enclave list. I haven't actually picked up the book yet, so I don't know for sure what they cost. If they cost the same as the standard dex then they weigh in at 107 pts after adding on target lock and retro thrusters (it is my understanding I only need one retro thruster to give h&r and fleet to the entire squad and I only need tl on the fusion gun). So it looks like a steal. Here are my questions.
First, how effective will this be vs meq? The shear mass of saves being forced along with ignoring cover makes me think it should work pretty well. But what I think and what happens in practice are of course going to be despairagingly different. Now to the meat and potatoes of the issue. In my mind this unit is all but unassailable, if I'm reading the rules right. Five flamers, that 5d3 hits on overwatch plus a 1/6th chance for a fusion hit. Am I right to believe this? If it I'm reading all these rules properly wouldn't these units be transport popping nightmares? Not to mention the untold devastation they could loose on naked infantry. And all for 107 pts.
Also I am running 2 tides, one with HBC the IA on the other. I have a 3rd but I don't run it because I don't want everyone to hate me... Yet.
Thanks for the help guys.

Not sure how they would be a transport popping nightmare. They are only S4 so at most you could cause 5 S4 hits on a transport, and a .89 chance of a glance if it's AV10 (0% if it's AV11+)

I run one solo 2 flamer suit in my list, I find 2x Missile pods are much more effictive.

I don't fin the fusion combos with the flamers too well, it's better off with a plasma or a missile pod, whihc match it's S value

The fusion gun has a reasonable chance of getting a pen doesn't it? The idea is to pop the transport with the fusion gun, then due to target lock on the fusion gun then I have 4 flamer shots left for whatever spills out.
And I feel the fusion synergizes well with the flamers due to the short range and intended use.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
The fusion gun has a reasonable chance of getting a pen doesn't it? The idea is to pop the transport with the fusion gun, then due to target lock on the fusion gun then I have 4 flamer shots left for whatever spills out.
And I feel the fusion synergizes well with the flamers due to the short range and intended use.

All the shots in the unit happen at the same time so you can't shoot the contents of the transport with the flamers. You declare all the targets you intend to shoot (with the unit firing) at then you resolve them all simultaneously. Then you pick another unit to fire with. Even with splitfire you cannot resolve the split shot then decide what to shoot at with the rest of the squad based on the results of that shot. Declare all targets, then resolve.

That kind of craps all over that idea. But that was the point of this thread. So now I'm thinking a squad of armor popping suits and two squads a flamer suits. Run them in a vanguard type formation with the armor daddy's in the middle and peel off the flamers to close with the infantry? Suddenly those missile pods sound better. And I like the idea of 86 pts for 3 suits and 6 flamers w/h&r and fleet.
Who in there right mind would assault 6 flamers? That is 6d3 hits on overwatch right? Goodnight sheesh.
I have hardly played since 5th and I think bob Dylan said it best, the times they are a changin.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
Who in there right mind would assault 6 flamers? That is 6d3 hits on overwatch right? Goodnight sheesh.

Everyone. 6d3 is an average of 12 hits. Against MEQs that gives you two dead*, and then the rest of the squad slaughters your crisis suits. You kill more horde models, but a horde can just laugh off 5-10 casualties and then slaughter your crisis suits. The only time flamer overwatch really protects you from assault instead of just adding some free kills is when you have a squad that's down to the last few surviving models and taking 1-2 losses would finish them off. Most of the time you'll get better assault protection by taking better guns and killing more stuff in your own shooting phase.

*Compare that to 1.666 dead MEQs against overwatch from a 3-model squad with plasma.

Hah! Against BA that's less than 2! If only I ever fought flamer crisis suits......

This would simply not work unless you got in incredibly lucky. Anyway your crisis suits should never be in range for flamers because they will just get battered by what ever dosnt die.

Give them a purpose instead I.e anti tank- fusion blasters, anti MEQ. - plasma

Missile pods are nice aswell

I guess I'll go with burst cannons then. The idea is to keep them cheap. But if they aren't viable then I'm boned. I just liked the idea of plopping down 20 crisis suits. Thanks everyone.

Here's what I'll say before you give up on the unit.

I play both very competitively in the East Coast tourny circuit and very friendly in mu local shop. I adjust accordingly.

IN FRIENDLY GAMES, a squad like this can be very effective, and funny, and very fun:

Crisis x3: Flamers x4, Fusion x2 (Target Lock): 124

I usually run two of them. They're great skirmishers against hordes. They drop in, do their thing and JSJ away. You have to view their effectiveness not just in how much they kill, but how long your opponent remains unduly obsessed with eliminating them just because they're in his backfield lol. That's what they're for. And they're super cheap, so if you kill/rout a squad of guardsmen and destroy the battle cannon on a Leman Russ that's mission success man. Then you hop out of LOS if possible and do it again. If not, they waste a turn shooting stuff at them that would've been concentrating on Riptides, or Broadsides or Skyrays or more expensive+effective Crisis units.

One note though, I noticed a lot of fanciful talk about Overwatch. Not only is it underwhelming in reality (as people will feed you tougher units instead of squishy ones), but double check with your local group about the legality of Multi-trackers allowing two weapons to fire Overwatch. The exact wording mentions only "The Shooting Phase" (Overwatch occurs in the assault phase, obviously). Now, NOVA and some other tournaments I'm sure have ruled that you CAN fire both. But your gaming group may be RAW.

In any case, welcome to the cause of the Enclaves. They're incredibly fun to play and much more dynamic than normal Tau. The loadouts are all fun so try them all. It helps too that we're the only TRUE good guys in the galaxy!

I run 3 suits with double flamers with farsight so they don't scatter when they come in. They usually overkill the heck out of whatever they look at, and it's kind of hilarious.

Mulletdude, unless you're playing illegally, having all 3 Crisis in the unit have flamers almost never works because you cannot fire flame weapons through your own models. When you deep strike, 1 suit is inevitably going to be behind two others. That's why people advocate for the third suit to typically have double fusion.

Just a sidenote on the vectored retro-thrusters.
Yes, one of them gives the entire unit hit and run.
No, you need one on each suit to give the whole unit fleet.

Also, having hit and run with ini 2 is kind of underwhelming, but if you buy a drone you can use its much better ini of 4.

 The Shrike wrote:
When you deep strike, 1 suit is inevitably going to be behind two others.

Not necessarily. You can put two models behind the center model and then place the flamer templates off to the side of the center model. It's not ideal, but you should be able to hit at least something.

for a horde control unit, i like this combo:

commander with airburster and cyclic, drone controller and whatever.
3x suits with dual BC
everyone has 2 gun drones.

sooooo much dakka its not even funny. and with marker support to remove cover and boost BS on the team... wow.

I ran a melee oriented Tau list and in that list, the dual flamers were invaluable on my Crisis teams. A unit of those could crush most normal infantry units with their volume of fire and their melee ability.

Aun'Va really helped cement the thing for me. I like the idea. It seems like it would be pretty fun against a lot of opponents.

 Jancoran wrote:
I ran a melee oriented Tau list and in that list, the dual flamers were invaluable on my Crisis teams. A unit of those could crush most normal infantry units with their volume of fire and their melee ability.

Aun'Va really helped cement the thing for me. I like the idea. It seems like it would be pretty fun against a lot of opponents.

"Melee". I'd love to see this list.....

Don't laugh, with relentless and awesome weaponry (regardless of choice), S5, 3 attacks on the charge and a 3+ with two wounds; they're not bad. Throw Farsight in there and oh boy. I charge stuff all the time if only because the subsequent shooting phase would spell certain death so why not go out like (little blue) men?

Often times I draw combat, wait out their turn in assault
And then hit and run out on a drone's I4.

 Feasible wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I ran a melee oriented Tau list and in that list, the dual flamers were invaluable on my Crisis teams. A unit of those could crush most normal infantry units with their volume of fire and their melee ability.

Aun'Va really helped cement the thing for me. I like the idea. It seems like it would be pretty fun against a lot of opponents.

"Melee". I'd love to see this list.....

u
Bat reps and lists are on my blog. Ill post it later when I get time or you can scope it out.

 The Shrike wrote:
Mulletdude, unless you're playing illegally, having all 3 Crisis in the unit have flamers almost never works because you cannot fire flame weapons through your own models. When you deep strike, 1 suit is inevitably going to be behind two others. That's why people advocate for the third suit to typically have double fusion.

Nothing illegal about it.

if you drop in with 4 models, your always going to make a box on a deep strike.

and unless your being dumb and place far sight in front, you will always have clean flamer shots in front.

Iv tried this waaaay before and its fun. very casual and could surprise some one in a torni, but over all its gimmicky.

With space marines allies and some locator bacon drop pods working with battle brother could be an interesting way to drop them in.

I want to point out, that while deep-strike rules tell you to do a circle around the first model and touch it with all models before starting a second circle when you run out of room, nothing actually tells you the circle MUST be continuous.

Having 3 models in the team, its totally legal to land with the two twos placed after the scatter on opposite sides of the one you scatter with.

And even if the local rule maker decided it can't fly (despite being RAW legal), a mere gun drone solves the issue, you just drop IT first, and then you can even use him to get "extra" range for your flamerdudes as you place the first directly in front of him.' and the other two diagonally to his sides.

Regular flamers are not that big of a threat in overwatch. Theyre just better than normal guns since they actually cause wounds, but almost never pen armor.

If we could purchase heavy flamer, that would be awesome.

Also you cant pop a transport and still shoot at the occupants aftorwords. Even with target locks you must declare where the unit is shooting at once, or they dont shoot at all. Target Locks just enable you to pick two units (or more depending on unit comp) instead of a single unit, but they still all fire at once.

 The Shrike wrote:
Mulletdude, unless you're playing illegally, having all 3 Crisis in the unit have flamers almost never works because you cannot fire flame weapons through your own models. When you deep strike, 1 suit is inevitably going to be behind two others. That's why people advocate for the third suit to typically have double fusion.

You're correct, for a 3 model unit. I have Farsight be the anchorman (the middle dude) and I can get plenty of wrap around him to shoot all 3 flamer suits at the target unit. Works beautifully as a counter-deepstrike because it is possible to measure as you're placing the models because of Farsights no-scatter. I have gotten up to 50 hits before with this, and it almost is guarenteed to blow up what it shoots at.

Flamers are awesome in overwatch. Surprised to hear someone say they aren't. Cant hardly ask for more production from a 5 point weapon.

They get a few hits, 50% of hits wound MEQ, then they get their armor save.

Let's assume a full squad of 3 with 2 flamers each. Average out 2 hits per flamer. 12 hits, 6 wounds, then down to two unsaved wounds (assuming 3+). Not that awesome really.

It doesn't have to be awesome. it just has to stop the charge. And it does more often than the enemy would wish. and sometimes it runs a victorious charge into an unforseen catastrophe.

I'll take it.

I'm just not a fan of them. They don't require marker support, but my opponents generally spread out to minimize templates as it is, so squads with flamers just can't get the hits needed to really justify the use of suits.

I thought of running a buff commander with dual flamers and the Repulsion field to get 2d3+d6 S4 hits. May not be much, but might discourage a charge if its teamed up with something like a Riptide or crisis suit squad.

 Jancoran wrote:
Flamers are awesome in overwatch. Surprised to hear someone say they aren't. Cant hardly ask for more production from a 5 point weapon.

Except you're not just paying the 5 points for the flamer, you're also spending the weapon/upgrade slot that you could otherwise use for something else. Committing to dual flamers means throwing away effective ranged shooting, and that's a pretty questionable decision.

spreading out is fine but we are talking about charges where spreading out isn't so good. And in any event, spreading out is irrelevant to the wall of death.

It's totally relevant to the thread though. It lacks reliable use due to it's short range and relies on enemy deployment to get a decent number of hits. Offensive wise it's very lack luster.

Defensive wise, it still doesn't seem worth it. The increased chances of wounding just don't even out it's offensive capabilities. While any other weapon would at least offer the benefit of requiring the squad to be further away and not require deepstriking to be effective.